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  #2381  
Old Posted Mar 22, 2019, 9:48 PM
Allandale25 Allandale25 is offline
 
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Any Moose reaction to today's news about Stage 2?

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1109140903992668165
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  #2382  
Old Posted Apr 9, 2019, 9:53 PM
qprcanada qprcanada is offline
 
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Order in Council overturns order to repair Prince of Wales Bridge.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/prince-of-wales-bridge-cabinet-1.5091286

The federal cabinet has rescinded a government agency's decision that would have forced the City of Ottawa to repair the Prince of Wales Bridge to make it suitable for rail traffic.

City solicitor Rick O'Connor informed Mayor Jim Watson, transit commissioners and other members of council of the cabinet order in a memo Tuesday afternoon.

According to O'Connor, the order-in-council means the city will no longer have to fight the decision at the Federal Court of Appeal, a hearing that was scheduled to take place later this week.

In February 2019, the Canada Transportation Agency ordered the city to repair tracks leading up to the bridge that had been ripped up duringLRT construction.

Against national policy
An order-in-council dated April 5 said the agency's decision went against national policy because it would force a railway company to invest in an "unused and non-profitable railway line," or discontinue it permanently.

The order-in-council said such a decision could discourage railway companies from buying available rail lines for future use.

Cabinet also rejected a petition from Moose Consortium Ltd., which wanted to use the bridge as part of a commuter rail project spanning the Ottawa River.

The consortium filed the initial complaint about the bridge's state of disrepair in 2016.
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  #2383  
Old Posted Apr 9, 2019, 10:06 PM
OtrainUser OtrainUser is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by qprcanada View Post
Order in Council overturns order to repair Prince of Wales Bridge.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/prince-of-wales-bridge-cabinet-1.5091286

The federal cabinet has rescinded a government agency's decision that would have forced the City of Ottawa to repair the Prince of Wales Bridge to make it suitable for rail traffic.

City solicitor Rick O'Connor informed Mayor Jim Watson, transit commissioners and other members of council of the cabinet order in a memo Tuesday afternoon.

According to O'Connor, the order-in-council means the city will no longer have to fight the decision at the Federal Court of Appeal, a hearing that was scheduled to take place later this week.

In February 2019, the Canada Transportation Agency ordered the city to repair tracks leading up to the bridge that had been ripped up duringLRT construction.

Against national policy
An order-in-council dated April 5 said the agency's decision went against national policy because it would force a railway company to invest in an "unused and non-profitable railway line," or discontinue it permanently.

The order-in-council said such a decision could discourage railway companies from buying available rail lines for future use.

Cabinet also rejected a petition from Moose Consortium Ltd., which wanted to use the bridge as part of a commuter rail project spanning the Ottawa River.

The consortium filed the initial complaint about the bridge's state of disrepair in 2016.

Good now the city can properly focus on lrt expansion and better overall transit system without being distracted by frivolous attempts by MOOSE to thwart them.
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  #2384  
Old Posted Apr 10, 2019, 1:15 PM
JohnnyRenton JohnnyRenton is offline
 
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Originally Posted by OtrainUser View Post
Good now the city can properly focus on lrt expansion and better overall transit system without being distracted by frivolous attempts by MOOSE to thwart them.
In fairness, I don't think Moose caused even the slightest delay for the city. A stack of lawyers bills? Probably. But I cant think of a single instance of the city expressing concerns that the Moose proposal could result in delays to their LRT plans. Ottawa has really had its head down and pencil to the paper when it comes to LRT expansion (since the 2010 reboot) and I never once got the impression that Moose's proposal was going to get in their way.
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  #2385  
Old Posted Apr 10, 2019, 2:26 PM
Charles5 Charles5 is offline
 
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Apologies, long post.

Hello everyone,

It looks to me like most folks here haven’t noticed MOOSE’s latest iteration of their business plan. A new brochure was posted about a month ago along with their updates to their petition to the GIC.
Unfortunately I can’t link directly to the document as it’s part of a zip file. The zip file is here. The name of the document is “MOOSE_PropertyValueInvestor_PRESS_2019-01-17.pdf”

In summary, MOOSE now wants to generate finances internally rather than relying on external capital investments. It now hopes to start by selling 12 station licenses along 100km of track at a little over $1M per license. Using the revenue generated by selling station licenses it will stand up a project office and promote a future train service. As a result of the promotion of a future service, they expect property values to go up in anticipation and from that value increase they would then fund the capital expenditures required to start the service.

Some comments on the brochure:

It states that: “It does not require capital market investors that may be detached from the interests of passengers and property owners.” To me this is another way of stating that they have not had any success in attracting investors over the past 8 years.

MOOSE expects station owners to pay a portion of the value increase on “all properties…regardless of their relationship to the licensee.” This means that if a station owner only controlled half of the assets within the assessed zone, they would still have to pay fees based on all of the properties. If you’re giving more than 50% of the increase to MOOSE, and you control 50% or less of the property, you could easily end up owing MOOSE more than you take in. Note that MOOSE believes they could take up to 90% of any increases if required.

The brochure states that the first $3M in income generated from license fees would go to pay off MOOSE members for work that they have done. However, if my memory is correct, as little as 2 years ago they only claimed $500K in work done. Considering that most of the actual work that was done on the business plan was completed before 2016 I find that a huge increase. In the last two years the bulk of the effort I have seen from MOOSE has been Joseph Potvin and his input into the various legal issues. Regardless, the first three licensees would get nothing for their money since MOOSE would simply put that money in their own pockets. Only after that would any additional output be created.

If you do the math in reverse, it appears that MOOSE believes that they can control $8B (yes, BILLION) worth of property transactions around these 12 stations. This is what would be required to generate the sums they are talking about ($2B at 25%, $1B at 12%, etc). This is not property value, this is the value of transactions in a year. Considering that sales happen on average every 20 years, lease contracts come up for renewal every few years, and we still have rent control on existing residential units, this would require an astronomical amount of property to be under the control of station owners.

MOOSE has very high expectations. Despite stating that “well established” projects in metropolitan areas generate 10-15% increases in property values, they expect to get up to 25% purely on the suggestion that service would arrive in the future ( because they are so good at selecting station locations). 12% is considered ‘modest’.

The business plan creates a chicken-egg scenario. MOOSE expects to generate revenue from station fees in order to fund the creation of the network, but can’t charge station fees until it can provide a service. Station owners only pay fees for service to be provided 2 months in the future, therefore I don’t see how MOOSE could ever collect revenues unless they can stand up their train service in less than 2 months.

To summarize the financial aspects, MOOSE expects to raise $500M based on a $15M initial investment in a single year. And they somehow manage to describe this as "low risk" for anyone who would decide to invest in a station license.

If you look at the list of Consortium members at the end of the brochure, there are now two fewer members than there were in their 2018 brochure. The missing members include Michael Lachappelle (Business Model Fulcrum) and Michael Richardson (Sandelmen Software Works). I can only assume that these individuals have removed themselves from the Consortium. This is significant in my mind considering that Lachappelle and Richardson are two of the initial members of the MOOSE Consortium (2015) and Richardson went back to the original MOOSE back in 2010.

------------------------------
Edit:

One other interesting tidbit from the brochure. If you look at the map of the rail lines on page 4 you will see a new line that goes out to Mississippi Mills and a number of spurs off of the lines on the Quebec side.

Last edited by Charles5; Apr 10, 2019 at 7:19 PM.
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  #2386  
Old Posted Apr 10, 2019, 2:48 PM
Truenorth00 Truenorth00 is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnnyRenton View Post
In fairness, I don't think Moose caused even the slightest delay for the city. A stack of lawyers bills? Probably. But I cant think of a single instance of the city expressing concerns that the Moose proposal could result in delays to their LRT plans. Ottawa has really had its head down and pencil to the paper when it comes to LRT expansion (since the 2010 reboot) and I never once got the impression that Moose's proposal was going to get in their way.
May not have taken much time or bandwith from the pros, but it's still a thing which incurs legal bills, creates legal risk to Stage 2 and distracts transit advocates from realistic proposals.

Maybe we can finally stop talking about MOOSE and actually start thinking about how to improve service to these communities beyond snake oil sales pitches.
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  #2387  
Old Posted Apr 10, 2019, 3:24 PM
JohnnyRenton JohnnyRenton is offline
 
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@Charles5

That is a really interesting find. I could lots about what you posted, but perhaps all that needs to be said is that this is just further proof that the changing landscape of transit in the NCR that has taken place in the past 7 years has finally caught up with Moose. Clearly it is trying to change its strategy, but it is probably too little, too late.

@Truenorth00

I agree that it is time to move the discussion forward. I think one of the challenges is that as exciting as it is to watch transit expansion in the NCR right now, there are still a lot of unknowns that need to be answered before a potential commuter rail plan could be developed (VIA HFR, a new Alexandra Bridge, and Gatineau SLR are all big question marks right now).

And not that I ever thought Moose would be built, but its demise does leave a door open for another group to come in and develop a new, more forward thinking plan for regional rail in the NCR, and beyond.
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  #2388  
Old Posted Apr 10, 2019, 5:22 PM
Allandale25 Allandale25 is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles5 View Post
Apologies, long post.

Hello everyone,

It looks to me like most folks here haven’t noticed MOOSE’s latest iteration of their business plan. A new brochure was posted about a month ago along with their updates to their petition to the GIC.
Unfortunately I can’t link directly to the document as it’s part of a zip file. The zip file is here. The name of the document is “MOOSE_PropertyValueInvestor_PRESS_2019-01-17.pdf”
Great post Charles. I'm confusion. Moose wants to get people to invest in " 12 station licenses along 100km of track at a little over $1M per license." but doesn't control/own the land around these "stations" and the City of Ottawa has a studied and funded transit plan to move forward that doesn't match the Moose plan. It wants to use the money though (after paying themselves) for "future service" and the funding generated would be for "capital expenditures required to start the service."

Why would any investor take the risk given the uncertainties above? Moose doesn't own the properties, control the service, have any EA done, etc? Are investors really going to go for this? Seems like a complete fantasy.
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  #2389  
Old Posted Apr 10, 2019, 6:12 PM
Truenorth00 Truenorth00 is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Allandale25 View Post
Why would any investor take the risk given the uncertainties above? Moose doesn't own the properties, control the service, have any EA done, etc? Are investors really going to go for this? Seems like a complete fantasy.
Indeed. Again. Why would any investor who has the funds to commit to what amounts to multi-billion dollar development scheme talk to MOOSE? They'd hash out a deal with the city directly.
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  #2390  
Old Posted Apr 10, 2019, 6:25 PM
Charles5 Charles5 is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Allandale25 View Post
Seems like a complete fantasy.
Not much of it seems to be founded in reality in my opinion. For example, the brochure suggests that if they were to get the money by April 2020, they could subsequently do all upgrades to the POW Bridge in the 2020 construction season (City of Ottawa estimated it at a 3 year time frame) along with a grade separation and connector track at the Ellwood Diamond (a very big job in my opinion). These are impossible time frames that no one, not even with all the money in the world, could ever achieve.
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  #2391  
Old Posted Apr 10, 2019, 7:23 PM
JohnnyRenton JohnnyRenton is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Truenorth00 View Post
Indeed. Again. Why would any investor who has the funds to commit to what amounts to multi-billion dollar development scheme talk to MOOSE? They'd hash out a deal with the city directly.
Exactly. No matter what angle you look at it from (whether it is from the view of an investor, municipality/city, or consumer) the structure Moose proposes doesn't make sense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles5 View Post
Not much of it seems to be founded in reality in my opinion. For example, the brochure suggests that if they were to get the money by April 2020, they could subsequently do all upgrades to the POW Bridge in the 2020 construction season (City of Ottawa estimated it at a 3 year time frame) along with a grade separation and connector track at the Ellwood Diamond (a very big job in my opinion). These are impossible time frames that no one, not even with all the money in the world, could ever achieve.
Add to that the sheer amount of transit/rail related construction that are underway, or set to take place, in the province (or across the country for that matter), and another question about the timeline raised is whether they would even be able to find firms to do the work that quickly. Then when you consider other aspects of the project, such as acquiring the trains (be they bi-level diesel set, EMUs, new or used) and even getting a service up and running on the VIA line could be a multi-year project. (I know this all very much preaching to the choir at this point, but there is value in really understanding where Moose went wrong, both in its proposal, and its planned execution).
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  #2392  
Old Posted Apr 10, 2019, 10:28 PM
acottawa acottawa is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Charles5 View Post
Not much of it seems to be founded in reality in my opinion. For example, the brochure suggests that if they were to get the money by April 2020, they could subsequently do all upgrades to the POW Bridge in the 2020 construction season (City of Ottawa estimated it at a 3 year time frame) along with a grade separation and connector track at the Ellwood Diamond (a very big job in my opinion). These are impossible time frames that no one, not even with all the money in the world, could ever achieve.
Promising “next year” implementation has long been the MO. In 2011 the service was going to be up and running in 2012.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/ottawa-area-commuter-rail-gathers-steam-1.1003316
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  #2393  
Old Posted Apr 10, 2019, 10:53 PM
Gat-Train Gat-Train is offline
 
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I do still wish the city had kept the O-Train on the original CPR alignment. In the future, we might well want to run bi-level DMUs on the Trillium Line.
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  #2394  
Old Posted Apr 11, 2019, 1:34 AM
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roger1818 roger1818 is offline
 
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I do still wish the city had kept the O-Train on the original CPR alignment. In the future, we might well want to run bi-level DMUs on the Trillium Line.
Maybe, but I am not sure why we would.
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  #2395  
Old Posted Apr 11, 2019, 2:16 AM
OCCheetos OCCheetos is offline
 
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Maybe, but I am not sure why we would.
More capacity without increasing frequency! Win win win!
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  #2396  
Old Posted Apr 11, 2019, 2:37 AM
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roger1818 roger1818 is offline
 
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Originally Posted by OCCheetos View Post
More capacity without increasing frequency! Win win win!
Do we really want to increase the capacity of the trillium line trains beyond the capacity of the confederation line trains they will be transferring to?
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  #2397  
Old Posted Apr 11, 2019, 2:51 AM
acottawa acottawa is offline
 
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More capacity without increasing frequency! Win win win!
There are way too many stops for a bilevel train to be practical.
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  #2398  
Old Posted Apr 11, 2019, 3:18 AM
OCCheetos OCCheetos is offline
 
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Do we really want to increase the capacity of the trillium line trains beyond the capacity of the confederation line trains they will be transferring to?
Spending 1/7th the money on bi-level trains instead of just double tracking the line seems right up the City's alley with how they've gone about it in recent years.

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There are way too many stops for a bilevel train to be practical.
That's true.

It was a joke though.
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  #2399  
Old Posted Apr 11, 2019, 3:41 AM
lrt's friend lrt's friend is offline
 
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Originally Posted by roger1818 View Post
Do we really want to increase the capacity of the trillium line trains beyond the capacity of the confederation line trains they will be transferring to?
I am glad some are now acknowledging that eventually we could face a Bayview transfer problem. Even FLIRTs maxed out could cause problems.

Then there is the speed inefficiency of running huge bilevel trains to provide non-commuter service with closely spaced stations. Not a good idea.
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  #2400  
Old Posted Apr 11, 2019, 11:56 AM
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roger1818 roger1818 is offline
 
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I am glad some are now acknowledging that eventually we could face a Bayview transfer problem. Even FLIRTs maxed out could cause problems.

Then there is the speed inefficiency of running huge bilevel trains to provide non-commuter service with closely spaced stations. Not a good idea.
I have always agreed with you that dropping a full Stage 2 train of passengers off at Bayview is a bad idea. My argument is that over half of the train's passengers will be dropped off at Carleton, so it won't be full when it gets to Bayview. Once we get to the point where half of the passengers are continuing on passed Carleton (and thus running full again), larger trains are not going to be of much help.
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