PHILADELPHIA | Highrise Development Thread IX

[Londonee]

Originally Posted by cardeza

You named 2 fields. What about the rest of them? law? medical field? engineering? Almost every major national engineering firm that has a presence in this region has a CC office and in many cases it's their lead office for this area. There are lot of people making near or over six figures in Center City/UC. Pharma is exclusively in the burbs, but those companies have largely been shrinking in recent years. I know a lot of people who have worked or currently work in white collar jobs downtown. The other thing to note is there are tens of thousands of government and quasi governmental jobs in CC (City, State, SEPTA, Feds, PPA, etc.) and no other employment node in the region comes close. The of course you have Penn/HUP which employ like 28k people- many well paid.

Also, all creative fields - production, ad agencies, design, interactive, social, art, music .... heavily ensconced in the city.

[Knight Hospitaller]

Originally Posted by Londonee

^^This is an interesting take and I've found it to be the complete opposite. I've found no difference in terms of "sports" "little league" and "music" and I actually find the land and accessibility to everything in "established" city hoods is far better than the suburbs. My son has a 2 block walk to baseball/soccer fields, roller hockey court, open land, tennis courts, basketball courts - my suburban friends have to load up cars with kids and car seats and drive 10 minutes for that type of access.

Also, FWIW I find the quality of the organized sports in the city to be fantastic.

We find the same in the established "urban-suburban" areas, like our Havertown. We have many children, but can still manage many activities well, given that sports, scouts, ballet, etc. are virtually at our doorstep, along with dining, banking, barber, etc. Open spaces would soothe the soul, but we're not sure that we can accept the convenience tradeoff. In a way, the city doesn't stop at the city line. I have always considered myself "Philadelphian" in a regional sense. The metropolitan area is more of a continuum, that becomes more of "every home is an island" the further out one goes. "Us vs. them" from either side has always irked me.

[mcgrath618]

Originally Posted by Knight Hospitaller

We find the same in the established "urban-suburban" areas, like our Havertown. We have many children, but can still manage many activities well, given that sports, scouts, ballet, etc. are virtually at our doorstep, along with dining, banking, barber, etc. Open spaces would soothe the soul, but we're not sure that we can accept the convenience tradeoff. In a way, the city doesn't stop at the city line. I have always considered myself "Philadelphian" in a regional sense. The metropolitan area is more of a continuum, that becomes more of "every home is an island" the further out one goes. "Us vs. them" from either side has always irked me.

Havertown! My old stomping grounds. Little league games at Paddock Park were always fun.

I agree with your sentiment. I could walk or bike to the nearest baseball field for most games as a child, like you would be able to in the city. However, when you get out to say, Malvern, you lose that quality.

I would say that this holds true for all of the border towns. Bala Cynwyd, Havertown, Springfield and Drexel Hill all have a similar urban/suburban hybrid quality to them (which is why if Philly is to follow the nationwide trend of expanding city borders, I think that it should be extended west to Darby Creek rather than to just straight up include all of Delco or Montco).

[cardeza]

Originally Posted by mcgrath618

Havertown! My old stomping grounds. Little league games at Paddock Park were always fun.

I agree with your sentiment. I could walk or bike to the nearest baseball field for most games as a child, like you would be able to in the city. However, when you get out to say, Malvern, you lose that quality.

I would say that this holds true for all of the border towns. Bala Cynwyd, Havertown, Springfield and Drexel Hill all have a similar urban/suburban hybrid quality to them (which is why if Philly is to follow the nationwide trend of expanding city borders, I think that it should be extended west to Darby Creek rather than to just straight up include all of Delco or Montco).

I think people need to get over this idea that in other metros the CBD is manhattan like and the burbs are just fill of malls and houses. In areas from DC to Atlanta to Miami you will find inner ring suburbs with mini business districts and significant employment. Philadelphia isn't an island and there is very little to impede developers and companies from migrating outwards with office parks. IN addition, each of these counties (especially in Jersey) are COMPETING with Philadelphia to attract jobs and build their own tax base. People act like all these companies just jumped ship against their will due to high taxes- there are local, county and statewide incentives on the table in many cases that encourage companies to set up shop elsewhere. Look at what's happening in Camden? Regardless of the tax structure here (or in other parts of Jersey) the tax breaks in camden are too good for many to turn down. How do you compete with that? Offer companies zero business taxes for 30 years to entice them to stay away from Camden?

[summersm343]

23rd and Walnut Rite Aid

I don't know how accurate this is, but I was told that this land will be sold and a 32-story tower is being planned.

[ScreamShatter]

Originally Posted by cardeza

You named 2 fields. What about the rest of them? law? medical field? engineering? Almost every major national engineering firm that has a presence in this region has a CC office and in many cases it's their lead office for this area. There are lot of people making near or over six figures in Center City/UC. Pharma is exclusively in the burbs, but those companies have largely been shrinking in recent years. I know a lot of people who have worked or currently work in white collar jobs downtown. The other thing to note is there are tens of thousands of government and quasi governmental jobs in CC (City, State, SEPTA, Feds, PPA, etc.) and no other employment node in the region comes close. The of course you have Penn/HUP which employ like 28k people- many well paid.

I'm not saying there aren't jobs in center city, but I do know from my personal experience (and experience in recruiting) that it's much easier to get higher paying jobs outside the city than inside. Center City only holds about 35%-40% of the jobs in the region, and many of those jobs are working class, not professional jobs. When someone goes through the job search process, it becomes very evident how many better paying jobs are outside the city than inside.

[ScreamShatter]

Originally Posted by cardeza

People cherry pick a few huge suburban employers like Vanguard, etc. and then use that to make the case that the "good" financial jobs aren't in Philly. No one company in the city in that business comes close to employing as many as vanguard, but that isn't the same thing as there being no opportunity for folks in that sector in CC. And a huge number of college educated people (accountants, lawyers, BAs, etc.) work in the public sector and there have got to be at least 15-20k such jobs downtown- not even counting nonprofits or the hospitals like Jefferson and Hahnemman. Although no one has actually presented data to back up the notion that the same job pays better in the burbs, I wouldn't take that is proof of superiority. As someone inferred- higher wages often relate to difficulty in attracting talent. When I worked with an engineer who lived/worked in NY before moving here he said engineering salaries in NYC were about the same as they were here in spite of cost of living differences- why? Population and availability of talent. He said entry level engineers were expendable because there would be 10-20 applicants for any position in Manhattan so there was no incentive to pay well or treat employees well.

There's been plenty of data posted on this site thousands of time before explaining Philly's job market.

Most of Philly-area's largest companies are not in Philly: https://www.phillymag.com/business/2018/05/23/philadelphia-fortune-500/

And if you look at the entire list, it's split about 50/50 between Philly and the burbs in terms of companies, but the total number of jobs in Philly are something like 35% last I read: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_companies_based_in_the_Philadelphia_area

And if you look at the higher paying jobs, most of those are outside the city. Philly, as a whole, has most of its jobs rooted in Eds and Meds and those are non-profit jobs which pay MUCH less than private sector. That's not to say there aren't high paying jobs in Philly (there are), but they are very competitive to get and more opportunities for higher pay ($100k+) outside of the city.

[mcgrath618]

Originally Posted by summersm343

23rd and Walnut Rite Aid

I don't know how accurate this is, but I was told that this land will be sold and a 32-story tower is being planned.

Any word on to whom?

[iheartphilly]

Originally Posted by summersm343

23rd and Walnut Rite Aid

I don't know how accurate this is, but I was told that this land will be sold and a 32-story tower is being planned.

Fuck yeah! As far as I'm concern, Walnut Street from River to River should be lined up with tall buildings.

[City Wide]

Originally Posted by cardeza

None of those suburban office clusters has anywhere near as many jobs as CC or even University City. In total, there are a lot more jobs in the 6 or 7 collar counties, but none of the locations you mentioned is in the same ballpark as center city philly. It is OK for the city and burbs to add jobs at the same time. I think it's funny that so much is made of suburban jobs here and how that is a sign of failure on the City's part when the DC area has a similar situation and no one thinks it's a problem. A huge proportion of that region's jobs are outside of DC.

DC, thanks to the Federal Gov't and maybe the building height limit, is a completely different type of market then CC Philly. Surface parking lots anywhere near downtown DC just don't exist.

[jsbrook]

Originally Posted by summersm343

23rd and Walnut Rite Aid

I don't know how accurate this is, but I was told that this land will be sold and a 32-story tower is being planned.

Wow! That would be amazing! Here's hoping. The owner of the lot with the gas station at 22nd and Walnut was soliciting bids for the lot for around $20 million about 1.5 years ago, but I haven't heard anything since. Hopefully both developed in the relatively near future.

[cardeza]

Originally Posted by ScreamShatter

I'm not saying there aren't jobs in center city, but I do know from my personal experience (and experience in recruiting) that it's much easier to get higher paying jobs outside the city than inside. Center City only holds about 35%-40% of the jobs in the region, and many of those jobs are working class, not professional jobs. When someone goes through the job search process, it becomes very evident how many better paying jobs are outside the city than inside.

It all depends on WHAT profession you are talking about. This not true when it comes to law, engineering, government jobs, marketing jobs and likely even IT jobs. You cannot make any generalization like that. CC is only 2 square miles- if it has 40% of the professional jobs that is a decent share. I mean comcast alone has like 3-4k jobs downtown- I wouldn't call those "working class" jobs. I will reiterate- higher salaries sometimes indicate DIFFICULTY in filling positions. Many people under 30 or 35 don't even want jobs way out in Chester county. CC has around 300k jobs and UC has around 80k- most of these jobs are NOT retail, clerical or custodial.

[cardeza]

Originally Posted by ScreamShatter

There's been plenty of data posted on this site thousands of time before explaining Philly's job market.

Most of Philly-area's largest companies are not in Philly: https://www.phillymag.com/business/2018/05/23/philadelphia-fortune-500/

And if you look at the entire list, it's split about 50/50 between Philly and the burbs in terms of companies, but the total number of jobs in Philly are something like 35% last I read: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_companies_based_in_the_Philadelphia_area

And if you look at the higher paying jobs, most of those are outside the city. Philly, as a whole, has most of its jobs rooted in Eds and Meds and those are non-profit jobs which pay MUCH less than private sector. That's not to say there aren't high paying jobs in Philly (there are), but they are very competitive to get and more opportunities for higher pay ($100k+) outside of the city.

Niether link provides any data regarding pay comparisons for similar jobs inside vs outside of the city. I don't think anyone ever claimed Philly has the majority of the Fortune 500 HQs in the region- this region isn't that impressive on that front in general. You don't need to work for Fortune 500 company to have a decent salary. The PBJ has published articles about how the top law firms in Philly have to offer salaries very close to what entry level lawyers get in NYC to stay competitive. I know for a fact what consulting engineers make in CC and they do well. Anyone midlevel and up is making at least $80-$90k. If you have ANY management responsibility you are comfortably in six figures.

[cardeza]

Originally Posted by City Wide

DC, thanks to the Federal Gov't and maybe the building height limit, is a completely different type of market then CC Philly. Surface parking lots anywhere near downtown DC just don't exist.

I wasn't talking about parking lots- I was talking about decentralized office jobs. The reasons don't change the fact that DC has a very spread out commercial office space environment. If the argument is that a "strong" city is one that has the overwhelming majority of the region's office space then DC must not be in great shape. You can't make simplistic claims about what constitutes a thriving city. The majority of the major metro areas in the US are more like DC than they are NYC.

This report shows that this trend has been steady over the last 40 years or so and there are only a handful of metro areas where the CBD holds the majority of the office space.

www.brookings.edu/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/lang.pdf

[jsbrook]

Originally Posted by cardeza

I wasn't talking about parking lots- I was talking about decentralized office jobs. The reasons don't change the fact that DC has a very spread out commercial office space environment. If the argument is that a "strong" city is one that has the overwhelming majority of the region's office space then DC must not be in great shape. You can't make simplistic claims about what constitutes a thriving city. The majority of the major metro areas in the US are more like DC than they are NYC.

This report shows that this trend has been steady over the last 40 years or so and there are only a handful of metro areas where the CBD holds the majority of the office space.

www.brookings.edu/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/lang.pdf

You can't really compare the two cities. There are myriad of other reasons why Northern Virginia is a large locus of metro employee besides regulations and taxes. We have a primary office in DC and moved our Philly office to the suburbs. The tax burden of operating in DC is less than Philly and it is generally less onerous with less hoops to jump through. Some of the reason is DC height limits. CityWide is not wrong. It is fine for government but the nature of the buildings and floor plates that are possible in DC is not optimal for many types of modern businesses and large employers that one a consolidated headquarters. Regardless, I can tell you that a lot of reverse commuters from DC would rather be working in the District too.

Putting aside what it means to be a "thriving" city, it's hard to say that Philly wouldn't be in better shape in a myriad of ways with more high-paying jobs in the City proper. I'm not really sure what your argument is. Are you saying that we shouldn't continue to cut taxes and red tape that makes it more difficult and costly to operate in Philadelphia?

[iheartphilly]

Very interesting discussion. Any "thriving" city must have a great transit system for starters. From there, there's a myriad of other factors that come into play and arguments can be made one way or the other for why one city is doing better than the other, but no single factor is a "one size that fits all" the explains it.

Looks at these statistics for a clue though in the DC and

https://does.dc.gov/sites/default/files/dc/sites/does/publication/attachments/CESdc1Dec17.pdf

https://does.dc.gov/sites/default/files/dc/sites/does/publication/attachments/CESarea1Dec17.pdf

[Londonee]

Originally Posted by jsbrook

You can't really compare the two cities. There are myriad of other reasons why Northern Virginia is a large locus of metro employee besides regulations and taxes. We have a primary office in DC and moved our Philly office to the suburbs. The tax burden of operating in DC is less than Philly and it is generally less onerous with less hoops to jump through. Some of the reason is DC height limits. CityWide is not wrong. It is fine for government but the nature of the buildings and floor plates that are possible in DC is not optimal for many types of modern businesses and large employers that one a consolidated headquarters. Regardless, I can tell you that a lot of reverse commuters from DC would rather be working in the District too.

You start off by saying you can't really compare the two cities...and then 2 sentences later do exactly that? I find it hard to believe that your firm is committing to being in DC relative to being in Philly b/c of financial concerns. The rent difference alone is astronomical and surely offsets any tax savings or "red tape." This source has it being nearly triple the cost of Philly. If that wasn't your point, I'm not sure the purpose of mentioning it?
https://www.statista.com/statistics/789935/cost-of-office-space-in-selected-major-cities-usa/

In other words, there are other ancillary reasons for your company not being in Center City beyond just tax $$/red tape (which is effectively $$). Is it a contributing factor? Sure. Could our biz taxes be lower and easier to figure out? Sure. But I've often found people/companies use that as a crutch to obfuscate underlying motivations that are completely different.

[Capsule F]

Originally Posted by City Wide

DC, thanks to the Federal Gov't and maybe the building height limit, is a completely different type of market then CC Philly. Surface parking lots anywhere near downtown DC just don't exist.

There used to be an ocean of parking lots in downtown DC until about 6 or 7 years ago.

[Aaamazarite]

Originally Posted by summersm343

23rd and Walnut Rite Aid

I don't know how accurate this is, but I was told that this land will be sold and a 32-story tower is being planned.

That Rite Aid has a loooong lease so if this is true, whomever is buying it must have made one hell of a deal with them to vacate. Last time I talked to the owner of that property (over a year ago) he told me they refused to move out.

[summersm343]

Originally Posted by Aaamazarite

That Rite Aid has a loooong lease so if this is true, whomever is buying it must have made one hell of a deal with them to vacate. Last time I talked to the owner of that property (over a year ago) he told me they refused to move out.

Either Rite Aid is selling the store because of their financial woes, or they negotiated a deal to give Rite Aid ground floor space in a new building.