The Great Canadian Transit Thread

[Reecemartin]

Originally Posted by SFUVancouver

I truly hope that whatever eventually comes of the DRL/Ontario Line/??? concepts is automated. Goodness, Toronto, please join the 21st century and reap the benefits of lower operating costs and higher frequency.

They have said it will be automated.

[niwell]

A southward jog to Ontario place makes a future routing to the northwest more difficult. If by Ontario Place they really mean Exhibition station then that's a bit better. It still reeks of promises made to redevelop Ontario Place with "transit accessibility".

I'm not worried about any of the theoretical technical aspects of automated trains or anything like that, but rather the realities of what will come to pass. I wasn't a huge fan of many previous government decisions in Ontario, but my experiences working with the current administration give me even less faith. The rhetoric about scrapping the existing work done on the line is more worrying that a switch in technology. The technical work already completed was at an early enough stage a technology switch would probably be doable without throwing everything out. The lack of interlining with the existing system is a concern but not insurmountable.

But yes, strictly "on paper" this is mostly fine and better than what many expected. Which was probably the strategy. The Ford administration has been surprisingly adept at managing expectations in contrast to the Liberals (with some glaring exceptions).

[J.OT13]

I'll back-track on the technology. If it means building something that is significantly cheaper for similar or better capacity, then that's what should be done. The REM model with smaller and shorter trains means smaller tunnels and shorter platforms.

[GeneralLea]

Listening to the transit "announcement" gave no real reassurance for concrete transit plans in the province. The party spoke a lot of building transit for the province...yet almost all of what was discussed was for transit related to the province's capital.

These "alternate" technologies (For the DRL) don't sound like something that'll aid the existing transit system for Toronto. I see it doing the exact opposite, especially when it comes to being integrated with Toronto's subway system.


A concerning line said by Triple F was of justifying the construction of the Scarborough subway because they "deserve" a three stop subway...not a great way of justifying a fiscally unreliable line, granted something needs to replace the existing line.


We'll see what's so great about tomorrow's budget....which Doug is very proud of.

[Reecemartin]

Originally Posted by GeneralLeeTPHLS

Listening to the transit "announcement" gave no real reassurance for concrete transit plans in the province. The party spoke a lot of building transit for the province...yet almost all of what was discussed was for transit related to the province's capital.

These "alternate" technologies (For the DRL) don't sound like something that'll aid the existing transit system for Toronto. I see it doing the exact opposite, especially when it comes to being integrated with Toronto's subway system.


A concerning line said by Triple F was of justifying the construction of the Scarborough subway because they "deserve" a three stop subway...not a great way of justifying a fiscally unreliable line, granted something needs to replace the existing line.


We'll see what's so great about tomorrow's budget....which Doug is very proud of.

Having different tech does not mean it cannot be well integrated for passengers and we all know it.

Eglinton will be very well integrated for example.

[GeneralLea]

It could be, but we don't even know what the province means by this technology. Seemingly it's just an LRT (streetcar) that goes underground most of the way, just like the Eglinton line. It may be cheaper, but just by the way it sounds, it seems like this line will have less capacity then a regular subway line. It's difficult to tell what's going on.

[Reecemartin]

Originally Posted by GeneralLeeTPHLS

It could be, but we don't even know what the province means by this technology. Seemingly it's just an LRT (streetcar) that goes underground most of the way, just like the Eglinton line. It may be cheaper, but just by the way it sounds, it seems like this line will have less capacity then a regular subway line. It's difficult to tell what's going on.

As I commented before it will not be an LRT likes that. It will likely be similar to Montreals REM or Sydney Metro.

I.e. similar capacity to the existing subway. High floor trains etc etc

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by GeneralLeeTPHLS

A concerning line said by Triple F was of justifying the construction of the Scarborough subway because they "deserve" a three stop subway...not a great way of justifying a fiscally unreliable line, granted something needs to replace the existing line.

It's a Catch-22 though .....not to mention extremely short sighted/self serving to deny Scarborough a proper subway.

Scarborough doesn't have the density so people argue it shouldn't get an upgrade to a regular subway the rest of us enjoy. At the same time we all know that the construction of the Yonge subway is why density developed in Toronto north along Yonge to North York.

We're constantly fighting between the desires of an urban core vs those of a suburban periphery. People are living in a fantasy land if they think we're going to bridge the gap by continually ignoring the periphery. At some point Toronto (post amalgamation) needs to accept that this is all Toronto now and all parts of it need to be stitched together with the same standard and quality of service. No one denies that amalgamation was going to be easy but this is one of those things where we need to bite the bullet for the long term future of Toronto.

I live downtown but frustrated by downtown folk who still have a 'me first' mindset. The gap between the Old City of Toronto and Scarborough, Etobicoke, etc. will continue to grow if we continue to funnel investment to downtown only. They'll continue to vote for people like Rob/Doug Ford too.

[Reecemartin]

Made a summary and analysis vid for the Ontario Line:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EEaci1qQcEQ&feature=youtu.be

[hipster duck]

This plan is about as good as the old plan. The major benefit of the old city-led plan was that it was further ahead. That’s about it. A lot of other aspects about the former subway plan were unconvincing: there was no yard; the line didn’t go far enough; it ended at Osgoode, which would have made desperately-needed westward expansion very difficult. Finally - not many people are willing to admit this - but heavy rail subway technology is not very versatile anymore. Now that we can have automated light metro systems like Montreal’s REM handle the same capacity at lower cost, building gigantic stations for massive subway trains which can’t handle steep grades or tight turns seems kind of like obsolete technology.

Of course, the major disadvantage of the Ford plan is that it takes something that had already gone through environmental review and brings it back to just more cheap talk.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by isaidso

Scarborough doesn't have the density so people argue it shouldn't get an upgrade to a regular subway the rest of us enjoy. At the same time we all know that the construction of the Yonge subway is why density developed in Toronto north along Yonge to North York.

We're constantly fighting between the desires of an urban core vs those of a suburban periphery. People are living in a fantasy land if they think we're going to bridge the gap by continually ignoring the periphery. At some point Toronto (post amalgamation) needs to accept that this is all Toronto now and all parts of it need to be stitched together with the same standard and quality of service. No one denies that amalgamation was going to be easy but this is one of those things where we need to bite the bullet for the long term future of Toronto.

I live downtown but frustrated by downtown folk who still have a 'me first' mindset. The gap between the Old City of Toronto and Scarborough, Etobicoke, etc. will continue to grow if we continue to funnel investment to downtown only. They'll continue to vote for people like Rob/Doug Ford too.

Both the urban core and suburbs have that same "me first attitude" and for the past 30+ years, the burbs have been winning for the most part.

I have nothing against building rapid transit in Scarborough. The RT needs to be replaced. I just think there are better solutions than a full-blown subway. A mostly surface solution is possible by extending the Crosstown or using a large part of the existing corridor for a Bloor-Danforth extension. They could have either shut-down the RT completely (if Ottawa was able to shut down a BRT used by over 100,000 each day for conversion, surely Scarborough can live without the 35,000 per day RT for a few years) or phased it by shutting down sections at a time while replacements were built. Most of the corridor has enough space to build a new line parallel to the RT.

This is not just about urban vs. suburban, but what is the best solution for each sector of the city. Ottawa built a deep subway under downtown, we'll build a shallow cut-and-cover tunnel with open air stations in an area currently not served by rapid transit west of downtown and we're using existing corridors for the rest of the route. We're building a metro system for the least possible cost.

[GeneralLea]

Originally Posted by isaidso

It's a Catch-22 though .....not to mention extremely short sighted/self serving to deny Scarborough a proper subway.

Keep in mind I was quoting what was said in the transit announcement, I personally agree Scarborough should have a proper subway. I just prefer downtown's relief line being built prior to this due to the urgency of the situation on Yonge. I can't say much on this technology because the government hasn't defined what it is.

[CityTech]

Now that GO RER is a thing I don't think bringing the Relief Line to Dundas West is relevant anymore. The Barrie line already goes between downtown and Dundas West and it can relieve the University side of Line 1. Might as well push the RL westward into underserved areas. From Ontario Place it could be pushed further west into South Etobicoke some day.

[MalcolmTucker]

Stations on the west bit?:

• Exhibition (GO)
• Union Station West (is this still floating around?), between Spadina and Bathurst
• Osgoode

To get between Osgoode and the rail corridor, it has got to be deep.

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by Reecemartin

Before people raise the alarms about "light" vehicles. Sydney Metro and REM vehicles are light and Sydney Metro has a 40,000 ppdph capacity (higher than the Yonge Line).

This is totally doable from a tech perspective.

I don't see how Sydney Metro vehicles are light. They don't even have any light characteristics. It's using standard Alstom metropolis subway cars which are used in heavy-rail subway /metro systems around the world. They perhaps could be considered light(ish) if used as very short trains, but that won't be the case in Sydney with 6 car trains to start. they're quoting that high capacity precisely because the system and rolling stock are very much not light.

[osmo]

Originally Posted by isaidso

It's a Catch-22 though .....not to mention extremely short sighted/self serving to deny Scarborough a proper subway.

Scarborough doesn't have the density so people argue it shouldn't get an upgrade to a regular subway the rest of us enjoy. At the same time we all know that the construction of the Yonge subway is why density developed in Toronto north along Yonge to North York.

We're constantly fighting between the desires of an urban core vs those of a suburban periphery. People are living in a fantasy land if they think we're going to bridge the gap by continually ignoring the periphery. At some point Toronto (post amalgamation) needs to accept that this is all Toronto now and all parts of it need to be stitched together with the same standard and quality of service. No one denies that amalgamation was going to be easy but this is one of those things where we need to bite the bullet for the long term future of Toronto.

I live downtown but frustrated by downtown folk who still have a 'me first' mindset. The gap between the Old City of Toronto and Scarborough, Etobicoke, etc. will continue to grow if we continue to funnel investment to downtown only. They'll continue to vote for people like Rob/Doug Ford too.

Downtown Toronto, the largest employment Centre largest financial centre, largest population based in Ontario. It is far to easy to spin with bogus arguments you present that try to minimize the impact and importance of downtown Toronto. It needs the lion's share of the investments, it is already underserved and needs to be funded with transport and other institutions and ammenties. Downtown requires a DRL there actually has the density to support the ridership.

Yonge was an overcrowded trolly line prior. Density along Yonge has always been more than what is present in a Scarborough. Yonge has had the large base of the city population nearby since it's start. Yonge Street is also the most important main road in the city and has always been the spine.

Scarborough didn't have the density or the ridership numbers to justify a subway and Scarborough geography and it's natural state of streams and random water hurdles presents potentially one of the most expensive subway builds in modern history. There is a reason it was never attempted when subways were much more cheap.

Scarborough gets what it deserves. The place would of had a brand new LRT replacement for the SRT running now if they didn't drink political kool-aid as each party on every level has used them as political pawns. The more games the more the price shoots up. Eventually one party will get a splash of cold water and see reality of how dumb the project is for the cost

Scarborough Subway is maybe the worst use of infrastructure dollars ever convinced in the western modern world. This project would be the most expensive and yet get the least amount of ridership. Costs have grown so out of control it is actually cheaper to but evrey resident in Scarborough a new car, or, meteopass or Uber for life.

[WhipperSnapper]

The Scarborough subway will connect to a regional transit hub. That is more than the numerous lines to nowhere in the western world which now includes the Ontario line to Ontario Place.

[MalcolmTucker]

The sub-optimal expansions elsewhere are a price to be paid for getting the relief line done. It might not be the choice many of us would have made, but it isn't the worst.

Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper

The Scarborough subway will connect to a regional transit hub. That is more than the numerous lines to nowhere which now includes the Ontario line to Ontario Place.

Ontario Place isn't the worst decision. Comes own to where exactly it is: I can't see why it won't be approximately here:

[WhipperSnapper]

Ford inherited a provincial chest in financial ruin. He's not exactly pro transit either. The likelihood of any expansions and relief line is not very good. This Ontario Place ploy is all I need. It takes a needed plan and turns it into a white elephant.

[Reecemartin]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

This plan is about as good as the old plan. The major benefit of the old city-led plan was that it was further ahead. That’s about it. A lot of other aspects about the former subway plan were unconvincing: there was no yard; the line didn’t go far enough; it ended at Osgoode, which would have made desperately-needed westward expansion very difficult. Finally - not many people are willing to admit this - but heavy rail subway technology is not very versatile anymore. Now that we can have automated light metro systems like Montreal’s REM handle the same capacity at lower cost, building gigantic stations for massive subway trains which can’t handle steep grades or tight turns seems kind of like obsolete technology.

Of course, the major disadvantage of the Ford plan is that it takes something that had already gone through environmental review and brings it back to just more cheap talk.

The old plan did have a yard etc, but I do agree with most of what you said.

Originally Posted by CityTech

Now that GO RER is a thing I don't think bringing the Relief Line to Dundas West is relevant anymore. The Barrie line already goes between downtown and Dundas West and it can relieve the University side of Line 1. Might as well push the RL westward into underserved areas. From Ontario Place it could be pushed further west into South Etobicoke some day.

Barrie Line doesn't go there and GO RER still isn't being built. Though I agree the station has good enough connections to Downtown via GO and Line 2.

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

I don't see how Sydney Metro vehicles are light. They don't even have any light characteristics. It's using standard Alstom metropolis subway cars which are used in heavy-rail subway /metro systems around the world. They perhaps could be considered light(ish) if used as very short trains, but that won't be the case in Sydney with 6 car trains to start. they're quoting that high capacity precisely because the system and rolling stock are very much not light.

They are actually relatively narrow. Same stock as being used for REM which everyone seems to insist on calling light.