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  #6781  
Old Posted Apr 8, 2019, 6:25 PM
ILoveHalifax ILoveHalifax is offline
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Originally Posted by Zigio View Post
My thought exactly. The general consensus is that no provincial taxpayer dollars should go toward the build of a stadium. The only other source of tax revenue would come from tourism.
How about lottery? Even setting up a special lottery for just a 75 mile radius from the city ?
     
     
  #6782  
Old Posted Apr 9, 2019, 3:18 PM
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Originally Posted by ILoveHalifax View Post
How about lottery? Even setting up a special lottery for just a 75 mile radius from the city ?
Love the creative thought and it may appeal to some, but I think the collective opinion for funding the stadium is to stay out of our pockets as much as possible.

That's why I'm in favor of a Hotel Levy for Non-Resident stays provided that all Nova Scotian's be exempt from paying it.
     
     
  #6783  
Old Posted Apr 9, 2019, 3:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Zigio View Post
That's why I'm in favor of a Hotel Levy for Non-Resident stays provided that all Nova Scotian's be exempt from paying it.
Kinda like that proposal to remove the toll at the Cobequid Pass for all Nova Scotians, but keep it in place for NBers and PEIslanders.

Keep this up and we may start thinking you really don't want us to come to Halifax for a visit...........
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  #6784  
Old Posted Apr 9, 2019, 3:47 PM
ILoveHalifax ILoveHalifax is offline
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Originally Posted by Zigio View Post
Love the creative thought and it may appeal to some, but I think the collective opinion for funding the stadium is to stay out of our pockets as much as possible.

That's why I'm in favor of a Hotel Levy for Non-Resident stays provided that all Nova Scotian's be exempt from paying it.
Only those who want to, participate in a lottery - it's completely optional and those who don't want to, don't pay a penny.

Seems to me that so many people who don't want any money to go to a stadium/CFL team yet will benefit from the civic pride a team creates, and the various public contributions other than just on the field
     
     
  #6785  
Old Posted Apr 9, 2019, 5:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Zigio View Post
My thought exactly. The general consensus is that no provincial taxpayer dollars should go toward the build of a stadium. The only other source of tax revenue would come from tourism.
This can't possibly be true.

A consensus is when everybody agrees. "General consensus" is redundant.

In polls, a plurality in Halifax said they were OK with municipal money going to a stadium, and this was before the current community stadium funding model was even discussed: https://www.thestar.com/halifax/2018/04/...icipal-taxes-to-pay-for-cfl-stadium.html

It's unlikely that these people are all enthusiastic about using municipal money for a stadium but against using any provincial money.

Some people in NS don't want to pay taxes to fund this project, but that is something we could say about just about any project ever in NS. It's not like people in Dartmouth are in love with the idea of paying for hockey rinks in Pictou either, but it happens. I read the same complaints about the central library a few years ago. Many people said they did not want to contribute tax dollars to that because they don't use libraries or, better yet, because nobody uses libraries anymore. This is kind of like the people who say they shouldn't pay for schools because they don't have kids. It's not practical for people to pick and choose which specific projects they fund with their tax dollars. Sometimes you end up paying for things you don't use, and some times other people end up paying for things you use and they don't.

Last edited by someone123; Apr 9, 2019 at 5:31 PM.
     
     
  #6786  
Old Posted Apr 9, 2019, 10:28 PM
OldDartmouthMark OldDartmouthMark is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ILoveHalifax View Post
How about lottery? Even setting up a special lottery for just a 75 mile radius from the city ?
I like that idea, actually. They could make some of the prizes stadium-related as well, like season's tickets to future CFL games, etc.... although I realize that is a little premature at this juncture.

But... yeah... lotteries are totally voluntary, and are known moneymakers. Throw in a little regional pride in the advertising regime and I think it could work.
     
     
  #6787  
Old Posted Apr 11, 2019, 12:55 PM
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  #6788  
Old Posted Apr 11, 2019, 2:09 PM
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This opinion piece starts off weak by asserting (in the title and subtitle no less) that everyone in the city is against this, then goes on to provide no evidence for this, and states only his thoughts.

But he really lost me at "killer views over downtown" - the best vantage point at ground level would provide a sidelong view. I would say one might be able to make out a couple of buildings off in the distance; basically everything else would be hidden around the corner. And besides, there is already a brand new path/boardwalk to access the "coastal landscape" with views of the water, which could (and probably would) be extended with a stadium development, even maintaining the wooded areas.

In fact, I don't see how a stadium would preclude all other possible developments in the area; for example a memorial to the Mi'kmaq settlement (which I had always thought was on the site of the power plant but either way), or maybe even a museum. I would love to see a proposed site plan though.

As for his proposed alternate use of the entire site, personally I would much rather see the Canal St. area in Downtown Dartmouth redeveloped in a similar way instead (for which plans have been made in the past). It's obviously smaller, although somewhat comparable in size to the previously-occupied area of Shannon Park. But to focus such an investment in this central location, which already well served by transit, would greatly benefit downtown (on both sides of the harbour) and vise-versa, and would imo be better for the city overall.
     
     
  #6789  
Old Posted Apr 11, 2019, 2:19 PM
OldDartmouthMark OldDartmouthMark is offline
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My thoughts on the article:

The main point made against a stadium was that the land would be better used to create some sort of a self-sufficient community:
Quote:
It's an opportunity to showcase our renewed enthusiasm for reducing sprawl by creating a walkable urban community which has everything onsite—housing, shops, employment, green spaces and a school.
...but this doesn't sound much different than most urban neighborhoods, which typically have all those amenities. I'm not sure what is special about the Shannon Park lands that would make this location better than any other.

Additionally, for it to be truly self-sufficient as described, all residents would be required to be employed at the company on-site, which doesn't sound unlike the company towns were common in the early 20th century https://imperoyal.com/). I don't know how you could make that happen on a public level, or even if you'd want to.

What the article ignores is that the stadium also provides benefits to the general population, in fact I would argue that it does so more than a privately contained neighborhood as it allows anybody and everybody an opportunity to use the land and receive benefit from it. Plus, it provides a morale boost for Halifax as it is something we can be proud of on a national level.

Just my ...
     
     
  #6790  
Old Posted Apr 11, 2019, 2:47 PM
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Well, of course the newspaper that published it is a notorious rag. And the author is someone who believes that there should be no automobiles on the peninsula at all and that all streets should be pedestrian/bicycle only. In short, they are made for each other, although thankfully, not many.
     
     
  #6791  
Old Posted Apr 11, 2019, 4:26 PM
Colin May Colin May is offline
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I wonder if traffic noise is significant at Shannon Park. I ask this after looking at the sales prices obtained at Banook Woods which seem quite low for the quality. I assume prices are low and decling year over year because of persistent traffic noise from the Circumferential. and the noise from the bridge portion. Condo fees may be part of the problem depending on the amount in the condo account.
It doesn't seem that developers are rushing to buy land at Shannon Park; too busy elsewhere in more desirable locations.
     
     
  #6792  
Old Posted Apr 11, 2019, 8:45 PM
Colin May Colin May is offline
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  #6793  
Old Posted Apr 12, 2019, 6:30 PM
Zigio Zigio is offline
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Originally Posted by Colin May View Post
Thank you for sharing this, Colin.
     
     
  #6794  
Old Posted Apr 13, 2019, 4:33 PM
elly63 elly63 is offline
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Originally Posted by Zigio View Post
The general consensus is that no provincial taxpayer dollars should go toward the build of a stadium.
How soon we forget. I assume HRM residents are still paying provincial taxes and a sizable part of them?

Exclusive: Poll shows people in Halifax open to using municipal taxes to pay for CFL stadium
The polling done for StarMetro by MQO Research also says the best outdoor stadium size is between 15,000 and 25,000 seats.
Philip Croucher StarMetro Halifax April 15, 2018

HALIFAX—There is a clear appetite for spending municipal tax dollars to help fund a new outdoor stadium for Halifax.

That’s one of the findings of a new survey conducted exclusively for StarMetro by the polling firm MQO Research.

Between March 26 and April 2, 500 people in HRM were asked the following question: “To what extent, if at all, are you in favour of the Halifax Regional Municipality contributing taxpayers’ dollars, either directly or through tax breaks, to the building of a new outdoor stadium in the municipality.”

In total, 42 per cent of respondents said they were either “very favourable” or “favourable” to the idea. Forty-one per cent said they were either unfavourable or very unfavourable.

Another 15 per cent were neither favourable nor unfavourable, with another 2 per cent unsure.

The most popular of the six possible answers was favourable, at 27 per cent.



“I honestly thought it would be a much lower level of interest,” said Rick Emberley of MQO Research.

“There are a lot of people that want a stadium but don’t agree with the idea of it being funded in part, or in whole, in any measure or ways, with taxpayer money. But let’s face it: In a marketplace of this size, it will never happen without some sort of financial incentive of financial support of government.”

The CFL, and a possible stadium for Halifax, are top-of-mind with an ownership group now established and looking to bring a team here.

League commissioner Randy Ambrosie even wrapped up a 10-city CFL road trip in Halifax in February to talk about a possible expansion and how the league would love to one day be a coast-to-coast entity.

To do that, they would need Halifax.

When you dig into the MQO Research polling numbers more closely, you get a clearer picture of who supports funding a stadium with the help of taxpayer dollars.



Looking at people between the ages of 18 and 54, the very favourable or favourable total reaches 47 per cent. In that same age bracket, 37 per cent say they are unfavourable or very unfavourable to the idea.

For the 55-plus age group, the very favourable or favourable number drops to 33 per cent, and the unfavourable or very unfavourable figure jumps to 48 per cent.

Emberley thinks the low support from the 55-plus group is partly due to them having the impression that private or commercial projects get more than their fair share of government funding.

“The second piece is they are probably the least likely demographic to take advantage of such a facility,” he continued.

There has been plenty of debate within the city over different levels of government supporting large, private-sector projects.

The most notable is the Nova Centre, which includes the Halifax Convention Centre. Last week regional council learned that Halifax was expected to lose millions in the next 10 years on its downtown convention centre.

“Even though the economic impacts of a convention centre might far exceed a stadium over a sports team or two here, the reality is more local people identify with a stadium … compared with never stepping inside a convention centre,” Emberley said.



The poll by MQO Research also asked respondents what size such a stadium should be if built. The runaway winner — at 40 per cent — was between 15,000 and 25,000 seats.

The other options were up to 15,000 seats or more than 25,000 seats. Both those suggestions received less than 15 per cent support.

“I know nothing of the economics to produce a creature like this,” Emberley said.

“But I think the argument would be it’s got to be the right size ... and right size means it can’t be built just for a football team. It has to properly accommodate concerts, other sporting events and so on.”

The polling firm also asked about possible stadium locations. Shannon Park was top choice at 27 per cent, followed by Dartmouth Crossing at 22 per cent and Bayers Lake at 14 per cent.

“The Shannon Park thing — not only is it central, it’s also very accessible,” Emberley explained.

“Bayers Lake, it’s a nightmare to get around out there. Imagine what it would be like if you dropped a 20,000-seat stadium out there. You would have to reconfigure the entire road network.”

The sample size of 500 people results in a margin of error, for a population of this size, of plus or minus 4.4 percentage points, 19 times out of 20.
     
     
  #6795  
Old Posted Apr 13, 2019, 6:34 PM
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The public as a whole are not smart. The power of suggestion is often what shapes their preferences far more than any rational thinking on their part.
     
     
  #6796  
Old Posted Apr 14, 2019, 5:59 PM
DT Hfx DT Hfx is offline
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Originally Posted by Keith P. View Post
The public as a whole are not smart.
Your statement is 100% accurate! The hoi polloi doesn't read, doesn't think and doesn't care to learn.
     
     
  #6797  
Old Posted Apr 15, 2019, 10:39 AM
elly63 elly63 is offline
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Originally Posted by DT Hfx View Post
The hoi polloi doesn't read, doesn't think and doesn't care to learn.
And that allows the rest of us the illusion that we are above them. Comforting isn't it?
     
     
  #6798  
Old Posted May 2, 2019, 2:31 PM
OldDartmouthMark OldDartmouthMark is offline
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Halifax CFL stadium under scrutiny

Quote:
“We are fully engaged with Canada Lands,” LeBlanc said, adding that Schooners Sports and the Crown corporation are going to the market to find an independent third-party real estate evaluator. The tender has been sent out and the responses should come in as early as next week, he said.

A recent Canada Lands release said a master redevelopment plan prepared for the park in 2015 and 2016 did not include a stadium site so the Crown corporation requires Schooners Sports and Halifax Regional Municipality to further engage with the community on any proposed new use.

Sam Austin, representing the neighbouring district of Dartmouth Centre on Halifax regional council, said nothing has changed.

“In terms of the location, there was an extensive planning consultation that went into Shannon Park and if we were going to change things up, there would have to be new consultation on that,” Austin said.

Schooners Sports is to present a detailed business plan to the municipality but that plan is predicated on completion of the Canada Lands deal, LeBlanc said.

Your beer may go warm waiting for this review

Brendan Elliott, a spokesman for the municipality, said it will take municipal staff some time to go through any Schooners’ proposal before presenting it to council.

“Ultimately, it will be council’s decision on how to proceed, based on the details that are in the business plan,” Elliott said. “We don’t have a business plan yet.”

Jacques Dube, the chief administrative officer for the municipality, has said in the past that it will take staff six months to pore over a formal proposal once it is received.

Then, Dube said the municipality would be in a position to start looking at the service impacts, estimating the service costs and delving into the tax increment financing zone model and whether a car rental tax and a dedicated portion of a hotel room levy could actually cover debt financing.
     
     
  #6799  
Old Posted May 2, 2019, 2:36 PM
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And after all this, it won't be overnight that construction will actually commence. Financing would have to be guaranteed and contractors secured. The stadium itself will take 18-24 months to build (at least).

I doubt that you will see a stadium on this site before 2023 (at the earliest).
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  #6800  
Old Posted May 2, 2019, 3:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronicle Herald
“Ultimately, it will be council’s decision on how to proceed, based on the details that are in the business plan,” Elliott said. “We don’t have a business plan yet.”
That's....not great? I was under the impression a business plan has been coming soon for months now.

This was from three months ago:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronicle Herald
LeBlanc hopes his ownership group’s plan will go to regional council by late spring and that he can announce the team’s a go shortly after that.
     
     
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