O-Train Line 2/4 [Stage 2 | Greenboro to Limebank/Airport] | In Service

[Uhuniau]

That's wider than a typical downtown north-south block. Yike.

[Multi-modal]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

That's wider than a typical downtown north-south block. Yike.

Another good analogy. The block length between Albert and Slater is 63 meters, the same typical (i.e. minimum) width of this Riverside South transit corridor.

[lrt's friend]

Talk about a loss of potential density, and from transit, no less.

[Mikeed]

Can they not put it in a trench?

Another reason why I'm pro brt in the suburbs.

[Multi-modal]

Originally Posted by Mikeed

Can they not put it in a trench?

They could... might be expensive depending on the soils, etc... in the area. Personally I favor elevated - rail over road, and for the majority of the alignment on an elevated berm that makes at-grade pedestrian underpasses easy to implement.

I'm thinking similar to the Trillium Line at the southern end of Carleton:



Or South Keys Station is another good example of slightly-elevated rail.

Alas, I submitted a document outlining the issues with at-grade rail in Riverside South (and the issues with the "transit streets") to the south-end Councillors, but to no avail it seems.

[lrt's friend]

Do we have any drawings of the overpasses required to go over the Trillium Line?

I cannot imagine them being anything but anti-pedestrians.

[Multi-modal]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Do we have any drawings of the overpasses required to go over the Trillium Line?

I've been following this pretty closely and don't know of any drawings. I'm curious as to what they will do with the north-south collector roads in the Community Core. Will...

• the east-west "transit streets" increase in grade to meet with the north-south collector roads at an elevated height over the Trillium Line OR
• the north-south collector roads be built to overpass the whole corridor including both the Trillium Line and the transit streets.

I think the former would be preferred out of those options, because I assume the overpass height requirements would be less if they are only passing over a rail corridor with a specific rail vehicle height (don't have to accommodate double decker buses and the like).

[lrt's friend]

The stupidest thing they could do is ignore future electrification of the line and build the overpasses too low.

[danishh]

why are they putting private traffic lanes and parking there? Why not just stick with the transitway and rail?

also, are they planning on building another bridge next to "vimy bridge" (still a stupid pun) for the transit corridor? Ideally the BRT can be grade separated at both River road and POW.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by danishh

why are they putting private traffic lanes and parking there? Why not just stick with the transitway and rail?

also, are they planning on building another bridge next to "vimy bridge" (still a stupid pun) for the transit corridor? Ideally the BRT can be grade separated at both River road and POW.

The stupid thing is to tag on a relatively short semi-BRT onto the end of rail. For the time being, they would have been better off to build out the rest of the corridor from the bridge to the end of rail as a bus road so we wouldn't need these parallel bus roads. Just build a bus station at the rail line on the transit corridor itself. A simple bus loop at the end of the rail line would have been a better short-term solution with an at-grade busway to the bridge. No expensive overpasses and underpasses. It will stop this from ever being turned into another Byron Avenue linear park.

[Multi-modal]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

For the time being, they would have been better off to build out the rest of the corridor from the bridge to the end of rail as a bus road so we wouldn't need these parallel bus roads. Just build a bus station at the rail line on the transit corridor itself. A simple bus loop at the end of the rail line would have been a better short-term solution with an at-grade busway to the bridge.

+1

If the City wants to put some parallel access roads next to the rail for short blocks to access development, fine. But continuous parallel "transit roads" make no sense given the context. The focus should be having good BRT terminus at Limebank Station. Why do the buses need to continue east?

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

It will stop this from ever being turned into another Byron Avenue linear park.

Hey now, that is a disservice to Byron Avenue linear park. That corridor has several advantages over what the City is proposing here:

1. Its narrower than what is being proposed;
2. The middle of the two roads is a park not a 20 meter wide rail corridor;
3. There are frequent crossings for pedestrians and local traffic; and,
4. There are no overpasses.

[Multi-modal]

I'm going to send comments to the Riverside South CDP file lead... not that it will do anything.

[TransitZilla]

Originally Posted by Multi-modal

The draft Riverside South secondary plan revision is complete:
https://ottawa.ca/en/city-hall/public-en...-south-community-design-plan-2018-update

Behold, the 83 meter-wide corridor they will be building overpasses over in Riverside South

To be fair I don't think they will be building any overpasses over the 83 m wide corridor; the first north-south cross street west of Limbank shown in the community core is west of the LRT station, so there it doesn't need to go over the rail corridor.

It would be interesting to see how they envision the local cross streets east of Limebank working. Do they cross the entire 63m corridor or do the parallel streets rise up at those intersections so the overpasses are only over the rail corridor itself?

I recall older versions of the Riverside South CDP having detailed plans for the Core Area; I'm not sure why this new version doesn't show any considering that is one of the areas of the CDP with the most change compared to previous versions.

[Multi-modal]

Originally Posted by bradnixon

It would be interesting to see how they envision the local cross streets east of Limebank working. Do they cross the entire 63m corridor or do the parallel streets rise up at those intersections so the overpasses are only over the rail corridor itself?

Yep, this is what I'm still not sure about. I assume Limebank will cross the entire 63 m corridor, but even there I'm not sure.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by Multi-modal

+1


Hey now, that is a disservice to Byron Avenue linear park. That corridor has several advantages over what the City is proposing here:

1. Its narrower than what is being proposed;
2. The middle of the two roads is a park not a 20 meter wide rail corridor;
3. There are frequent crossings for pedestrians and local traffic; and,
4. There are no overpasses.

I can understand how you feel in today's context, but it was built and served for 59 years as the key transportation link to the west end of the city.

A better example of what I am saying is the Alta Vista parkway corridor.

Rail corridors that are abandoned and transportation corridors that remain unused for years are going to be adopted by the neighbouring community as there own. There original purpose is quickly lost and it becomes extremely difficult to reactivate their original purpose.

[Multi-modal]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

I can understand how you feel in today's context, but it was built and served for 59 years as the key transportation link to the west end of the city.

A better example of what I am saying is the Alta Vista parkway corridor.

Rail corridors that are abandoned and transportation corridors that remain unused for years are going to be adopted by the neighbouring community as there own. There original purpose is quickly lost and it becomes extremely difficult to reactivate their original purpose.

O, I misunderstood your original point. Yes, I agree we should use the transit corridor between Riverview Station and Limebank Station as quickly as possible before the new residents of Riverside South claim this as an informal park - that is a real risk.

[TransitZilla]

Not sure if this has been posted already but I found a number of documents and detailed plans for the Trillium Extension on Dropbox (https://www.dropbox.com/sh/65id237hd574imh/AAC84_KO6udPuNmDgXXka0PTa?dl=0), see the Appendix C folder.

Linked to from the City website (https://ottawa.ca/en/city-hall/public-engagement/projects/application-construct-railway)

[Multi-modal]

Originally Posted by bradnixon

Not sure if this has been posted already but I found a number of documents and detailed plans for the Trillium Extension on Dropbox (https://www.dropbox.com/sh/65id237hd574imh/AAC84_KO6udPuNmDgXXka0PTa?dl=0), see the Appendix C folder.

Linked to from the City website (https://ottawa.ca/en/city-hall/public-engagement/projects/application-construct-railway)

Wow, good find.

[Multi-modal]

The entire Trillium Line Project Agreement from the RFP is in there. There is no way that is supposed to be publicly available. Would recommend downloading before its all removed.

[Multi-modal]

Relevant section on Limebank Road we were discussing (sorry for the long block of text and poor formatting):

(i) Limebank Road
(i) Project Co shall design and construct the Roadway improvements on Limebank Road per the Design Criteria requirements specified in Appendix A of this Part 2.
(ii) Project Co shall design and construct a grade separation Bridge Structure, including its approach embankments, at a location approximately 300m south of the existing Earl Armstrong Road/ Limebank Road intersection, where the new Track corridor shall cross the Limebank Road corridor.

A. Under a scenario in which Project Co’s proposed grade separation facility may involve a road-over-rail grade separation configuration, Project Co shall construct an Overhead Structure, including its associated approach embankments, to carry the proposed Limebank Road over the Track corridor.
i Project Co shall design and construct the Overhead Structure to accommodate for a future widening of Limebank Road further south without the need to reconstruct the southern approach embankments for the Overhead Structure.
ii The entire raised length of Limebank Road over the Track corridor shall meet the 4-lane divided cross section requirements as specified in Appendix A of this Part 2. Project Co shall design and construct an appropriate transition for the improved Limebank Road to change its cross-section from the 4-lane divided urban cross section to the existing 2-lane undivided rural cross section beyond the southerly limits of the proposed grade raise.
iii The overall length of the Limebank Road Overhead Structure shall provide the span required to:
1. Carry Limebank Road over the Track corridor, and,
2. Accommodate a collector Roadway on the north side of the Track corridor, and a MUP on the south side of the Track corridor, as prescribed in Clause 6.18(i)(iii)(C) of this Part 2.

B. Under a scenario in which Project Co’s proposed grade separation facility may involve a rail-over-road grade separation configuration, Project Co shall construct a Guideway Structure, including its associated approach embankments, which spans over the Roadway cross-section as described in Appendix A of this Part 2.
i Project Co shall design and construct the single span Guideway Structure to accommodate for a future widening of Limebank Road without a need to reconstruct any part of the Guideway Structure.
1. The design of the Guideway Structure shall also accommodate and protect for a collector Roadway cross section, on the north side of the Track corridor, and a MUP on the south side of the Track corridor, as prescribed in Clause 6.18(i)(iii)(C) of this Part 2.
2. The design of the Guideway Structure shall also protect for a future MUP connection between the north and south sides of the Track corridor on the east side of Limebank Road (minimum 7.0m between the east abutment and the east edge of the Limebank Road ROW).
ii Project Co shall design and construct an at-grade signalized intersection at the intersection of Limebank Road and Connector Road.
1. Project Co shall undertake a detailed traffic analysis, including an intersection LOS analysis considering vehicular and non-vehicular road user needs as per the City of Ottawa’s TIA Guidelines, and confirm the intersection control type, storage lengths and geometry and general layout, using projected traffic and transit volumes for a 2031 horizon year, including cyclists and pedestrians.
2. Project Co shall submit a comprehensive traffic report and include the results and approval from the City at the early stages of the preliminary design, and recommendations of the above-noted traffic analysis and seek a minimum of 20 Business Days prior to initiating the detailed design per the requirements of Schedule 10 – Review Procedure.
(iii) Project Co shall accommodate a collector Roadway cross section, on the north side of the Track corridor and a MUP on the south side of the Track corridor, as described below.
A. Project Co shall design and construct the collector Roadway north of the Track corridor, herein referred to as Connector Road. Project Co shall refer to Article 6.18(j) for the scope of the design and construction requirements of Connector Road.
B. Project Co shall design and construct an appropriate transition required for Connector Road as per the requirements of Clause 6.18 (j)(i)(D) of this
Part 2.
C. Project Co shall protect for a future MUP south of the Track corridor. The future MUP shall have a minimum clear width of 7.0m and a minimum overhead clearance of 3.0m.
(iv) Project Co shall ensure the horizontal and vertical clearances for the proposed grade separation facility meet the requirements of the applicable Bridge codes as per Article 4 – Structural Design Criteria and requirements of this Part 2.
(v) Project Co shall undertake a detailed traffic analysis, including an intersection level of service analysis, as per the City’s TIA Guidelines, to confirm the traffic control types and storage lengths and geometry and general layout for the limit of the Works on the southern leg of the Limebank Road / Earl Armstrong intersection, as required, using a projected traffic and transit volumes for a 2031 horizon year and taking into consideration all associated pedestrian and cycling requirements. Project Co shall submit a comprehensive traffic report and include the results and recommendations of the above-noted traffic analysis and seek approval from the City at the early stages of the preliminary design, and a minimum of 20 Business Days prior to initiating the detailed design per the requirements of Schedule 10 – Review Procedure. Project Co shall provide for all additional intersection improvements as required on the southern leg of the intersection according to the results of the above-noted traffic analysis.
(vi) Project Co shall design and construct the proposed Roadway improvements for Limebank Road to include all necessary traffic staging detours and temporary access requirements such that all temporary and permanent Works are contained within the Lands as defined in Schedule 33 – Lands.
(vii) Project Co shall reference the information provided in Schedule 15-2, Part 7 – Traffic and Transit Management and Construction Access, for the specific traffic staging and access management requirements for all private approaches from Limebank Road during staged construction and temporary conditions.
(viii) Project Co shall refer to Schedule 15-2, Part 6 - Urban Design, Landscape Architecture and Connectivity Requirements, for the pedestrian and cycling connectivity, landscape and streetscape requirements for Limebank Road and associated intersecting Roadways.
(ix) Project Co’s design and construction of the Roadway improvements for Limebank Road shall meet the requirements of Clause 6.17 of this Part 2.
(x) Project Co shall protect for future access to/ from Limebank Road as per the requirements of the most current Riverside South community design plans and guidelines.

It looks like in the Limebank Road over Trillium Line option (Scenario A) they will only build the overpass to accommodate the north connector road ("transit road" in the CDP) with a multi-use pathway on the south side of the tracks. So I guess the south transit road won't continue through at Limebank.