The Great Canadian Transit Thread

[MalcolmTucker]

Originally Posted by Chadillaccc

Holy christ. 2.4 billion just for a 18 ish km streetcar? That's completely insane.

With dedicated short tunnels and bridges, large stations, transfer stations, and a ROW, and all the utility relocation.



If the stations weren't north of $100, maybe $150 million a pop I'd say underground starts to look cost competitive!

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by accord1999

That's my thought as well. The Stantec study done in 2013/2014 had estimated <$500M:

http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showpost.php?p=8373889&postcount=2449

and less than $1.9B for a fully tunneled option to 96th Ave!

The one reason why I kinda wished Bill Smith won the mayor race was to have a review of the Green Line to see why its costs had gone up so much.

Ottawa's Stage 2 increased by 1 billion dollars from estimates 2 years ago, from 3.6 B to 4.6 B. Market pressure, so increased demand for this type of project (see massive projects approved and u/c in Montreal, Ottawa, Toronto, Edmonton) was deemed responsible for $600 million of that. The rest was mostly increased scope (addition of 14 km and 5 stations).

No need to elect a buffoon. There's your answer.

https://ottawa.ctvnews.ca/stage-2-of-lrt-1-billion-higher-and-delayed-two-years-1.4309046

[p_xavier]

So, what about transit in the Feds budget.HFR anyone lol?

[MalcolmTucker]

Originally Posted by d_jeffrey

So, what about transit in the Feds budget.HFR anyone lol?

A $2.2 billion one time injection over and above their 10 year spending plan of $16 billion a year on infrastructure transferred to the provinces and municipalities to the federal Gas Tax Fund.


So an extra approximately (based on last years allocations):
Newfoundland and Labrador $32,852,000
Prince Edward Island $16,500,000
Nova Scotia $58,549,000
New Brunswick $47,655,000
Quebec $504,041,000
Ontario $819,444,000
Manitoba $72,018,000
Saskatchewan $61,919,000
Alberta $229,516,000
British Columbia $278,605,000
Yukon $16,500,000
Northwest Territories $16,500,000
Nunavut $16,500,000
First Nations $29,404,000

[swimmer_spe]

Looking at how high the costs are to build these projects and others, one has to wonder if making everything privatized has actually been a benefit to the citizens.

[Chadillaccc]

If the government is really targeting meaningful sustainable objectives, why aren't they restoring passenger train service to Western Canada and Northern Ontario? I know it's a money pit, but lots of what the government does is a money pit. I don't know about you guys, but I'd be taking the train to Vancouver, Edmonton, or Winnipeg a couple times a year if it was an option, especially with Greyhound ending its operations.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Chadillaccc

If the government is really targeting meaningful sustainable objectives, why aren't they restoring passenger train service to Western Canada and Northern Ontario? I know it's a money pit, but lots of what the government does is a money pit. I don't know about you guys, but I'd be taking the train to Vancouver, Edmonton, or Winnipeg a couple times a year if it was an option, especially with Greyhound ending its operations.

Or what about Calgary or Regina?
Or Thunder Bay or Sault St Marie?

And then you have Fredericton where the tracks don't even exist anymore.

[milomilo]

Discussed in the VIA thread, restoring long dead long distance rail services isn't a good use of (very) scarce funds.

[MalcolmTucker]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Looking at how high the costs are to build these projects and others, one has to wonder if making everything privatized has actually been a benefit to the citizens.

The subway extension to York University was run in the old way, with the TTC acting as prime contractor basically. Costs grew from $2.6 to $3.2 during construction, and it was late.

By doing a design build instead, you trade somewhat higher costs upfront, for certainty.

I assume this is what you meant by privatizing? As construction has always used contractors.

About the Subway Nobody Wanted (Yonge Street) in 1950:

The TTC design was submitted to interested construction firms in Canada, the U. S., and England, who worked out various methods of construction, computed costs, and tendered bids. The contract for the first one and a half mile stretch went to Pitts, Johnson, Drake and Perini, a syndicate of one Canadian and three IJ. S. companies. There was the inevitable roar of indignation at the predominance of American firms, until the 'ITC revealed that the syndicate’s $10 million bid was $6 millions lower than the nearest all-Canadian tender


This May the Rayner Construction Co., of I, Ont., won the contract for the second one and a half mile stretch with a $7 million bid. The second section will cost less because much of it will be an open cut right of way— in other words, hardly a subway at all.

[Reecemartin]

Originally Posted by SFUVancouver

For what it's worth, the Roberts Bank Rail Corridor project in Metro Vancouver seeks to provide total grade separation for the 70km railway corridor serving the Port of Vancouver's Deltaport/Robertsbank terminal complex.

Phase One saw nine road and highway overpasses were built for $310M and completed in 2014. It was funded by the Port, railways, communities, Province, and Federal government.

https://www.portvancouver.com/development-and-permits/development/roberts-bank-rail-corridor/

Phase Two is a $45M investment in on-site road overpasses at Deltaport itself.

https://www.portvancouver.com/wp-content...-DTRRIP-Project-Update-December-2014.pdf

Its nowhere near full grade separation. Indeed there have been a number of separations but, numerous busy crossings are not planned to be separated.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by milomilo

Discussed in the VIA thread, restoring long dead long distance rail services isn't a good use of (very) scarce funds.

You're right. We should just leave things as is.

[J.OT13]

Ready4Rail Video in anticipation for Ottawa's Confederation Line opening in a few months.

• Video Link

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Ready4Rail Video in anticipation for Ottawa's Confederation Line opening in a few months.

• Video Link

They made some strange production choices in that video, with different messaging alternating between English and French. And the information is not repeated in the other language. So basically you have to be bilingual in order to get all of the info.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by Acajack

They made some strange production choices in that video, with different messaging alternating between English and French. And the information is not repeated in the other language. So basically you have to be bilingual in order to get all of the info.

I've noticed. Quite strange. There's also too much going on; hard to read/focus with all of the different images and videos playing behind the writing.

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

You're right. We should just leave things as is.

And of course, that isn't what I said. There is lots of good discussion in the VIA thread. But TLDR: just restarting long distance trains at low frequencies will be a fail, it needs a large investment in a line that will be successful from the get-go. Calgary - Edmonton might be feasible with enough investment, but Calgary - Regina etc, no chance. Better to reinstate bus services between all those nodes first and upgrade to rail only if and when ridership justifies it.

[Ottawaresident]

Originally Posted by milomilo

And of course, that isn't what I said. There is lots of good discussion in the VIA thread. But TLDR: just restarting long distance trains at low frequencies will be a fail, it needs a large investment in a line that will be successful from the get-go. Calgary - Edmonton might be feasible with enough investment, but Calgary - Regina etc, no chance. Better to reinstate bus services between all those nodes first and upgrade to rail only if and when ridership justifies it.

To have a demand there HAS TO BE THe SUPPLY!!! Nobody will want to use the train when there is no train.

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by Ottawaresident

To have a demand there HAS TO BE THe SUPPLY!!! Nobody will want to use the train when there is no train.

Yeah, that's why you give them buses first. On long distance, low demand routes a bus would be faster, more reliable, cheaper, more frequent and produce less emissions than a train. So why on Earth would you put in a train?

[Ottawaresident]

Originally Posted by milomilo

Yeah, that's why you give them buses first. On long distance, low demand routes a bus would be faster, more reliable, cheaper, more frequent and produce less emissions than a train. So why on Earth would you put in a train?

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by Ottawaresident

Thanks for the thoughtful reply. Do you find anything wrong with my reasoning? Why would you want a train if it was going to be slower, unreliable, more expensive, less frequent and worse for the environment than a bus?

[Taeolas]

To be fair, train travel and bus travel have significant differences, even with the train travel Via provides across most of Canada. Bus travel has the appearance (whether the reality is different or not is irrelevant) of being the lowest of the low class for the most part; whereas rail travel still has an acceptable mid-class prestige about it.

More practically speaking, rail travel is generally seen as a more spacious way of travel than busing is. You have more room usually, and can get up and stretch more easily than on buses. And often times (depending on the train setup) you have access to more or different amenities than you would have on a bus.