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  #5441  
Old Posted Mar 20, 2019, 3:48 AM
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Migrant_Coconut Migrant_Coconut is offline
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Originally Posted by Vin View Post
Yeah, like the viaducts were built in 1894 and getting too small for the daily usage? Or maybe the viaducts have a leaky or damaged roof just like BC Place Stadium?
This but unironically. Like a too-small hospital or a leaky roof, the pro-demo side argues that the city has outgrown the viaducts and it's time to replace them. They're not entirely wrong.

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Originally Posted by Vin View Post
Exactly, just like what was happening at West Van recently regarding the B-Line bus..... It's a good thing that the majority won back then to have the viaducts built.

https://www.nsnews.com/news/b-line-debate-heats-up-at-west-van-council-1.23646649
West Van WANTS a new highway ripping through the North Shore and into downtown. That debate is entirely cars v. not-cars.

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Originally Posted by Vin View Post
Yeah, if you consider a slum and a segregated black ghetto a neighbourhood. Hogan's Alley was created due to racial discrimination and already rundown way before the viaducts were built.

Funny how many people buy into Vision's rhetoric that a "cultural relic" was lost due to the viaducts construction.
Whoosh.

There's plenty of arguments in favour of keeping Georgia and Dunsmuir the way they are - I've stated my concerns about at-grade design and commuters ignoring traffic lights.

The sunk-cost fallacy is not such an argument. And invoking the generation that fought tooth and nail to block the viaducts as a reason to keep the viaducts is just Insane Troll Logic. It made no sense the first time you said it, and it makes even less now.
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  #5442  
Old Posted Mar 20, 2019, 3:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut View Post
This but unironically. Like a too-small hospital or a leaky roof, the pro-demo side argues that the city has outgrown the viaducts and it's time to replace them. They're not entirely wrong.
Not just outgrown, but they're unsafe. If a major earthquake happens, they come down. And then there's no really good way to get from the downtown core to the new St. Paul's Hospital, and in an emergency situation you kind of want to have good access to a hospital. Seismically upgrading the viaducts would be way too expensive. Part of this upgrade process is to make a seismically engineered Pacific Boulevard -- it won't just be a standard road, it'll be strengthened somehow (I'm no road engineer) to preserve that access from downtown to St. Paul's.
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  #5443  
Old Posted Mar 20, 2019, 5:02 PM
Vin Vin is offline
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Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut View Post
This but unironically. Like a too-small hospital or a leaky roof, the pro-demo side argues that the city has outgrown the viaducts and it's time to replace them. (1)They're not entirely wrong.



(2)West Van WANTS a new highway ripping through the North Shore and into downtown. That debate is entirely cars v. not-cars.



Whoosh.

There's plenty of arguments in favour of keeping Georgia and Dunsmuir the way they are - I've stated my concerns about at-grade design and commuters ignoring traffic lights.

(3)The sunk-cost fallacy is not such an argument. And invoking the generation that fought tooth and nail to block the viaducts as a reason to keep the viaducts is just Insane Troll Logic. It made no sense the first time you said it, and it makes even less now.
(1) They are entirely wrong because the viaducts have been working since day one, and helping to create free-flowing traffic in that part of town for decades. They are functioning traffic structures.

(2) And if that were built, perhaps drivers don't have to curse about the traffic conditions at Lions Gate or Second Narrows Bridge today. I still feel the freeway system back in the 60s and 70s should've been built, but instead of tearing through heritage districts downtown, should've been designed to go underground.

(3) You should know better that money spent in the past is not my only premise for having the viaducts kept, but it is still an important part. Why waste something good and replace it with an inferior product?
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  #5444  
Old Posted Mar 20, 2019, 5:06 PM
Vin Vin is offline
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Originally Posted by CanSpice View Post
Not just outgrown, but they're unsafe. If a major earthquake happens, they come down. (1)And then there's no really good way to get from the downtown core to the new St. Paul's Hospital, and in an emergency situation you kind of want to have good access to a hospital. (2)Seismically upgrading the viaducts would be way too expensive. Part of this upgrade process is to make a seismically engineered Pacific Boulevard -- it won't just be a standard road, it'll be strengthened somehow (I'm no road engineer) to preserve that access from downtown to St. Paul's.
(1) I think you don't really know what you are talking about. No access?
I guess there are also no access to the current St Paul's hospital and VGH.

(2) $50-100million to seismically upgrade the viaducts is more expensive than $400million to remove it and build replacement structures? Where's your logic there?

Source:
https://dailyhive.com/vancouver/vancouver-viaducts-demolition-northeast-false-creek-plan-approved
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  #5445  
Old Posted Mar 20, 2019, 5:09 PM
Vin Vin is offline
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Originally Posted by GenWhy? View Post
The road options you mention are not taking the place of the viaducts. All traffic patterns will largely remain the same. Most likely the City (at "X" date years from now) will choose Prior.
Yup, after all the mess created and millions spent, commuters and the public will have to go through a decade of inconvenience for nothing, just to pacify Greg Robertson from Vision.

If they choose Prior, it will be back to square one. Might as well leave the viaducts alone.
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  #5446  
Old Posted Mar 20, 2019, 5:24 PM
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Guys, the viaducts are coming down. It could have been made an election issue, but guess what, nobody cares. It's happening. Move on.
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  #5447  
Old Posted Mar 20, 2019, 5:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Vin View Post
(1) I think you don't really know what you are talking about. No access?
I guess there are also no access to the current St Paul's hospital and VGH.

(2) $50-100million to seismically upgrade the viaducts is more expensive than $400million to remove it and build replacement structures? Where's your logic there?

Source:
https://dailyhive.com/vancouver/vancouver-viaducts-demolition-northeast-false-creek-plan-approved
He doesn't. And there is no logic. Just a regurgitation of the same fear mongering and outright bizarre untruths that the city has spread to distract from the REAL reason for the removal of the viaducts
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  #5448  
Old Posted Mar 20, 2019, 6:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Vin View Post
Yup, after all the mess created and millions spent, commuters and the public will have to go through a decade of inconvenience for nothing, just to pacify Greg Robertson from Vision.

If they choose Prior, it will be back to square one. Might as well leave the viaducts alone.
Again, the two projects are not one in the same. They are dealing with different components and different issues. They are separate.

Not sure about the comment about millions spent... on tearing down the viaducts you mean? Because the rail crossing through Strathcona is a separate project to grade separate commercial traffic (mostly) from rail traffic (ROW twinning), not about getting cars in/out of downtown.

The "decade of inconvenience" is standard planning and consulting that would happen with any major study (land use or traffic). Not really an inconvenience but proactive, if you're a community member which I know a few people on the community and stakeholder panel. They're fixated on downgrading Prior and the City's looking at strategies to keep the road for trucks but enhance it (not your typical arterial). The connector or the rail yards won't be built for at least well over a decade. Not sure what the former mayor has to do with this, currently.
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  #5449  
Old Posted Mar 20, 2019, 6:13 PM
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Also not sure what "square one" is. Sqaure one is building a complete community at the north shore of false creek?
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  #5450  
Old Posted Mar 20, 2019, 6:26 PM
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Originally Posted by WarrenC12 View Post
Guys, the viaducts are coming down. It could have been made an election issue, but guess what, nobody cares. It's happening. Move on.
Yep. This is why I tried (but failed) to not engage with this thread because it's the same tired arguments over and over again that will have no impact on the actual plan at hand, which is to remove the viaducts. That plan is going ahead no matter how much Vin or EastVanMark object. And with that I'll bow out.
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  #5451  
Old Posted Mar 20, 2019, 6:33 PM
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does anyone have the latest update on the construction schedule? i saw a detailed timeline in one of the docs (on cov's website) but they had a start date of January 1, 2018 (as a placeholder maybe).
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  #5452  
Old Posted Mar 20, 2019, 6:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Vin View Post
(1) They are entirely wrong because the viaducts have been working since day one, and helping to create free-flowing traffic in that part of town for decades. They are functioning traffic structures.

(2) And if that were built, perhaps drivers don't have to curse about the traffic conditions at Lions Gate or Second Narrows Bridge today. I still feel the freeway system back in the 60s and 70s should've been built, but instead of tearing through heritage districts downtown, should've been designed to go underground.

(3) You should know better that money spent in the past is not my only premise for having the viaducts kept, but it is still an important part. Why waste something good and replace it with an inferior product?
1) Then why are Dunsmuir, Pacific, and Expo almost always backed up like a krogan toilet? They were okay in the 70s, now, with all the development around them, they're just a bridge to nowhere.

2) Or we could use that hypothetical fantasy money on two SkyTrain lines for the North Shore which'd move up to twice as many people. Given current traffic, a highway - assuming we could find NIMBYs willing to give up their neighbourhood - would be clogged immediately half a year later.

3) Money spent in the past shouldn't BE a premise, because its presence implies a "throwing paint at the wall" strategy and helps to undermine all your other premises.

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Originally Posted by Vin View Post
(1) I think you don't really know what you are talking about. No access?
I guess there are also no access to the current St Paul's hospital and VGH.
Indeed. Downtown is hell for emergency vehicles. It's easy to see why they'd want to move the hospital to a downtown-adjacent space with more lanes.
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  #5453  
Old Posted Mar 20, 2019, 6:40 PM
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Originally Posted by rxp View Post
does anyone have the latest update on the construction schedule? i saw a detailed timeline in one of the docs (on cov's website) but they had a start date of January 1, 2018 (as a placeholder maybe).
It's definitely a placeholder. First they need to finalize the plan, and that hasn't happened yet.
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  #5454  
Old Posted Mar 20, 2019, 7:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut View Post
1) Then why are (A)Dunsmuir, Pacific, and Expo almost always backed up like a krogan toilet? They were okay in the 70s, now, with all the development around them, (B)they're just a bridge to nowhere.

2) (C)Or we could use that hypothetical fantasy money on two SkyTrain lines for the North Shore which'd move up to twice as many people. Given current traffic, a highway - assuming we could find NIMBYs willing to give up their neighbourhood - would be clogged immediately half a year later.

3) (D)Money spent in the past shouldn't BE a premise, because its presence implies a "throwing paint at the wall" strategy and helps to undermine all your other premises.

Indeed. (E)Downtown is hell for emergency vehicles. It's easy to see why they'd want to move the hospital to a downtown-adjacent space with more lanes.
(A) Dunsmuir backup: Lane reductions by the Vision government: same people trying to demolish viaducts.
Expo/Pacific (no lane reduction): When are they really backed up? Everytime I'm there, traffic flow is always pretty smooth. Your krogan toilet example is a hyperbole.

(B) They are not bridges to nowhere. They are quick links to the downtown Vancouver from the eastside, and vice versa.

(C) Or wouldn't it be better if we have a good downtown-Northshore road link AS WELL AS a skytrain? Or would you rather propose that we tear down all bridges because they would be "clogged immediately half a year later"(hyperbolic misinformation) anyway?

(D) That's not an argument.

(E) Downtown is hell for emergency vehicles? Yeah maybe on those roads backed up as a result of lane reductions.
Funny, but last time I checked, lanes on Burrard Bridge were reduced to accommodate bike lanes due to "underutilization". That bridge is the main access to St Paul's. So who is giving out misinformation here? Isn't it the Vision government claiming that Cambie, Burrard and Granville bridges are all underutilized?

Last edited by Vin; Mar 20, 2019 at 7:49 PM.
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  #5455  
Old Posted Mar 20, 2019, 7:45 PM
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Also not sure what "square one" is. Sqaure one is building a complete community at the north shore of false creek?
Nope, linking back to Prior Street: a road that Vision vowed would be free of the scary "freeway traffic" after the viaducts are gone.
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  #5456  
Old Posted Mar 20, 2019, 7:57 PM
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in my experience the Dunsmuir viaduct is congested during most daytime hours due to right turning cars waiting for the heavy pedestrian use at citadel parade and beatty to clear the crosswalks. even with a dedicated right turn lane at beatty, i can see the Costco entrance on beatty at a driver for induced demand.

Georgia viaduct is not typically busy, but that's bc the bottle neck is at Howe with all the people trying to turn right and again backing up traffic while waiting for the crosswalks to clear.
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  #5457  
Old Posted Mar 20, 2019, 7:57 PM
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This had been posted before, but for those who missed it:

https://dailyhive.com/vancouver/opinion-...t-transportation-policy-in-citys-history
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  #5458  
Old Posted Mar 20, 2019, 8:01 PM
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Originally Posted by mezzanine View Post
in my experience the Dunsmuir viaduct is congested during most daytime hours due to right turning cars waiting for the heavy pedestrian use at citadel parade and beatty to clear the crosswalks. even with a dedicated right turn lane at beatty, i can see the Costco entrance on beatty at a driver for induced demand.

Georgia viaduct is not typically busy, but that's bc the bottle neck is at Howe with all the people trying to turn right and again backing up traffic while waiting for the crosswalks to clear.
Agreed!

People claim emergency vehicles can get "stuck" trying to get to the new St Paul's hospital at the Flase Creek flats when they travel on the Georgia
viaduct. From your statement, this is never going to happen, and that shows there are folks giving out misinformation.

I wonder if emergency vehicles would get stuck trying go down the new ramp to Pacific Boulevard, then cross like a gazzillion traffic lights before finally arriving at the hospital.
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  #5459  
Old Posted Mar 20, 2019, 8:18 PM
GenWhy? GenWhy? is offline
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Originally Posted by Vin View Post
Nope, linking back to Prior Street: a road that Vision vowed would be free of the scary "freeway traffic" after the viaducts are gone.
True that City Staff and the new council (years from now) might choose a revised upgrade of Prior with an underpass at the rail crossing over the more expensive and cost / geotechnical prohibitive design options. Discussion with the Park Board have been most interesting. The viaduct outcome does not affect the new Clark - Main connector.
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  #5460  
Old Posted Mar 20, 2019, 8:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Vin View Post
There is still lots of land around the area to provide housing support for the new St Paul's hospital without the viaducts torn down.
The land is literally right next to the new St. Paul's- most of Strathcona is at least a few blocks away- and the other nearby lots are either reserved for supporting offices or are already built out.

It's a bonus, certainly, though, honestly, on the other hand, probably not worth another $300M. Plus, it's not like the medical workers are going to be able to afford those condos at those sorts of required CAC payments.

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Originally Posted by Vin View Post
Exactly, just like what was happening at West Van recently regarding the B-Line bus..... It's a good thing that the majority won back then to have the viaducts built.

https://www.nsnews.com/news/b-line-debate-heats-up-at-west-van-council-1.23646649
Would it have been a good thing if the original freeway plans went ahead? (Ignoring the destruction of Chinatown and Gastown for a minute).

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Originally Posted by Vin View Post
Yeah, if you consider a slum and a segregated black ghetto a neighbourhood. Hogan's Alley was created due to racial discrimination and already rundown way before the viaducts were built.

Funny how many people buy into Vision's rhetoric that a "cultural relic" was lost due to the viaducts construction.
You mean, like Chinatown?

I don't think people in the 80s would genuinely have believed that the run-down Yaletown Warehouse District was worth saving.

Hogan's Alley was a cultural relic in the same way Chinatown was. Both were poor neighborhoods created by segregation, but with distinct identities and history behind them. Perhaps run-down, but that doesn't mean it wasn't a tragedy the centre of Vancouverite black culture was wiped off the map for a highway to nowhere.

I mean, there's nothing we can really do about it now, so it's beside the point.
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Originally Posted by Vin View Post
City Offloads Viaduct Traffic Dilemma to Vancouverites
Experts, not community panel, should decide best new route to downtown.
By Maria Stanborough 2 May 2018 | TheTyee.ca

Maria Stanborough has been working as an urban planner throughout B.C. for more than 10 years. She is an admitted data geek and is a fan of transparency in community planning. She currently works at C+S Planning Group.


The Vancouver planning department has chosen to distance the new road network from the viaducts it is replacing by calling it the ‘False Creek Flats Arterial.’

Vancouver may soon be saying goodbye to its viaducts, but what will take their place as the new gateway to the downtown?

It’s a decision that requires robust cost-benefit analysis. But rather than rely on paid experts, Vancouver’s planning department wants a community panel to choose one of three potential routes — each with at least one negative impact for the community.

In 2015, a staff report addressed the question of where the viaduct traffic would go by recommending to city council that “an at-grade road network would be able to accommodate 100 per cent of today’s traffic volume, and can be designed to handle future traffic volumes more efficiently.” The then-directors of planning and engineering signed the report, long before any network had been determined.

Fast forward to 2018. Vancouver’s transportation department is co-ordinating a community panel to choose one of three options for the promised new road network. This new network will have to be able to accommodate 100 per cent of today’s traffic volume, as per the 2015 report.

The city used a similar approach in 2014 when it reached a stalemate with residents about the contentious Grandview-Woodland Community Plan, which included proposed rezoning changes. In response, it created a 48-person citizens’ assembly to offer advice.

The assembly was designed only for those residents most committed to the process and with the most flexibility in their schedules. Participants weren’t paid and had to devote a lot of weekends to the process. After two years of the citizens’ assembly, the area plan was passed in July 2016 following a heated council debate.

Now, the city is looking to create a community panel to address one of its most challenging transportation decisions as the viaducts come down.

The at-grade road network west from Main Street to the downtown core seems to have been decided, but the continuation of the road from Main Street to the east is unclear. Each of the three proposed routes — which will go through a mostly industrial part of town that includes some homes, parks and bike routes — has at least one significant negative impact.

Handing the decision to a community panel seems to be a way for the city to save face on what will ultimately be an unpopular decision. These are the three potential routes.

1: William Street

This route has a number of complications, the biggest being that it would run through Strathcona Park, further reducing the amount of green space on the east side of Vancouver and separating the community gardens from the park. This option would require the Vancouver Park Board to endorse a plan to reduce the size of a well-loved and well-used park, a very uncomfortable decision for any politician.

2: Malkin Avenue

The biggest consideration for this route is that it would force the many large businesses that operate along Produce Row to relocate. Produce Row, a cluster of wholesalers on the edge of Chinatown, was a historical hub of employment for many newcomers and remains an important centre of food and vegetable distribution today.

The logistics and economic impacts of this displacement have not yet been presented to the public.

3: National Avenue

This third option may be the least economically feasible. It would require the construction of a large overpass to span existing railway tracks, and the relocation of the Chess Street Fire Training Facility, the Heavy Urban Search and Rescue site and some of the National Works Yard. It would also result in a complicated dead end into Clark Drive in close proximity to the very busy First Avenue crossing. Clark Drive is the main truck route from the port as well as a main commuter route from Vancouver to Richmond and other lower mainland municipalities. A new intersection at National Avenue two blocks north of the already busy First and Clark intersection could lead to more congestion than it currently has, which is bumper to bumper at rush hour.


Other considerations

There are other potential impacts that have been mostly kept under the radar.

The road reconfiguration could hurt Trillium Park — a relatively new park that’s well used as it has two of a very limited number of all weather fields in the city. A new arterial road will make the park hard to access as it will be isolated to the south of a new road network, with no provisions to preserve the nearby parking.

The reconfiguration may also isolate the Commercial Drive neighbourhood from Strathcona. This could have significant impact on the Eastside Culture Crawl — the largest event to promote local artists in Vancouver. The Culture Crawl currently flows seamlessly between the two neighbourhoods, but with the new road network, this connectivity may be halted.

The third great unknown is how the new location for St. Paul’s Hospital will figure into this road network. The new hospital campus is currently being planned for the False Creek Flats area. There is little to no information available on how the design of the new hospital campus fits in with the road network options.

The cost of upgrading and maintaining the existing viaducts was one of the main reasons given for removing them. Unfortunately, given the lack of detail provided about the proposed transportation routes, it is impossible to fully understand the potential price of a reconfiguration.

There is a fourth option that the city has not yet proposed.

4: Rely on paid experts

Community consultation doesn’t always work out.

Strathcona residents were asked for their input when the removal of the viaducts was first proposed. The residents requested that the city reroute the bulk of the traffic that currently flows from downtown on Prior Street through their neighbourhood. The residents were hoping for an alternative road network as the primary route from Main Street to the east.

While city staff assured Strathcona residents that they would be exploring an alternative route, they did not provide information about the tradeoffs that might have to be made such as the potential loss of green space in their neighbourhood, limited access to Trillium Park, or the negative impacts on the Eastside Culture Crawl. When the community later learned that they might lose their community gardens, a number of activists formed Save Strathcona Park in response.

Had the people who engaged in the public consultation known all the impacts of an alternative transportation route, they may have provided very different input.

This is why the city needs to provide a full cost-benefit analysis of the road options that will take the viaducts’ place.

Despite the army of paid experts who work for the city, this critical decision is being offloaded to a community panel who may or may not have knowledge of transportation planning, and who may or may not have access to the amount of detailed information needed to make such a complex decision.

A lot is up in the air regarding the three options. Could increased traffic diverted onto Clark Drive affect commuters and the port? What are the costs of sacrificing park land? What are the costs of displacing a major food distribution hub?

From my perspective, the design of a community panel is a bit of urban planning sleight of hand. Let’s not put a panel of community members into the uncomfortable and unpaid position of choosing one of the three evils. Let informed, expert judgment pave the way. [Tyee]

Source:
https://thetyee.ca/Opinion/2018/05/02/Vancouver-Viaduct-Traffic-Dilemma/
If you read your own link properly, Vin, you would have realized this was for the Strathcona rail spur crossing, and NOT the viaducts. We have to separate that crossing regardless, because increasing rail traffic is going steadily to turn that spur into a slow-moving wall of trains.

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Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut View Post
This but unironically. Like a too-small hospital or a leaky roof, the pro-demo side argues that the city has outgrown the viaducts and it's time to replace them. They're not entirely wrong.
Are they? Which part of Vancouver has outgrown the Viaducts? I don't really think they divide Vancouver from anything, which is the reasoning for most of the el-freeway removals across N. America.

I mean, it would free up land, but if that's the only reason, it's not really worth it for $100M a block. There are better deals out there- like Broadway.

I think the only thing that divides anything are the Creekside and Andy Livingstone Park. Big deal.

Quote:
West Van WANTS a new highway ripping through the North Shore and into downtown. That debate is entirely cars v. not-cars.
We don't know if that's one idiot on the Vancouver Sun, or the prevailing opinion amongst the protestors. Even if it is, it could just be that those people hadn't thought as far to think about the consequences of their implied 'solution'.

Remember, many of the same people in the Grandview-Woodlands who fought the freeway also fought the Expo's elevated guideways.

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Originally Posted by Vin View Post
(2) And if that were built, perhaps drivers don't have to curse about the traffic conditions at Lions Gate or Second Narrows Bridge today. I still feel the freeway system back in the 60s and 70s should've been built, but instead of tearing through heritage districts downtown, should've been designed to go underground.
Funding was listed as the biggest reason the Freeway plan got kiboshed, not just opposition. They could have removed or moved the East-West section northwards or southwards (as was proposed in the wake of the protests), but it didn't matter in the end.
Quote:
The project failed due to the lack of federal and provincial funding. Councilors had trouble building freeways in the past. The councilors expected to get some money from the National Housing Board since it was a redevelopment project, but there were many confusions and conflicts between senior levels of government. However, some housing along the paths of proposed freeways was built, such as 1450 Chestnut St., 350 Keefer, Skeena Terrace, and most notably Raymur Place housing.
At one point the provinicial government would have paid for 1/3 of the cost if the federal government would pay for another 1/3 but they refused again. After this city councillers were infuriated that they were not receiving the same funding as other cities, such as the recently completed freeways in Montreal.
In fact, Vancouver mayor Tom Campbell went as far as to call the freeways "parkways" to make the federal government happy, to no great effect.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_200

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Originally Posted by Vin View Post
(1) I think you don't really know what you are talking about. No access?
I guess there are also no access to the current St Paul's hospital and VGH.
I think he meant during an earthquake...

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Originally Posted by WarrenC12 View Post
Guys, the viaducts are coming down. It could have been made an election issue, but guess what, nobody cares. It's happening. Move on.
It's not over until the shovels hit the ground. Vanity/Personal projects do not have to be election issues to be kiboshed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut View Post
1) Then why are Dunsmuir, Pacific, and Expo almost always backed up like a krogan toilet? They were okay in the 70s, now, with all the development around them, they're just a bridge to nowhere.
Honestly, we should build a Hastings Subway first before bringing down the viaducts.
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