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  #1661  
Old Posted Mar 20, 2019, 7:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Mikeed View Post
I know some people don't like the Alexandra Bridge, but it is a magnificent bridge and a really important part of our built heritage.

I will mourn its demise probably till the day I die.

I don't understand why the Alexandra Bridge can't be refurbished.

The CPR Trestle in Parry Sound and the High-Level Bridge in Lethbridge are both over a hundred years old and have no structural issues.
I also love the Alexandra Bridge. I am sure it could be refurbished, but the question is at what cost do we decided to throw in the towel?
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  #1662  
Old Posted Mar 20, 2019, 7:02 PM
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I'll be the dick that throws this out there - Gatineau population growth = more houses and majority of them work in Ottawa be it feds or high tech or construction - severe traffic congestion coming into Ottawa in the AM (not into Gatineau) and severe traffic congestion coming into Gatineau in the PM (not into Ottawa) - majority of bridge flow is one way directional and a new bridge mainly benefits Quebec - if there is no LRT bridge crossing planned - I am anti any new bridge investment.
Like others said, there's accuracy in this statement.

I personally believe tax dollars were a big reason ontario doesn't want a new bridge. When you add it all up-its a lot of revenue. 1 household that works in Ottawa but moves to gatineau results in no property tax, no income tax, no provincial portion of HST on groceries gas and other purchases...its 10k+ per year per family-if not way more. If Ontario loses 1000 residents, 10K per family annually equates 100 million over 10 years. Don't hold me to the actual numbers (I think they are higher) but the general idea of lost tax revenue is likely playing a role in the Ontario provincial government not wanting the bridge.
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  #1663  
Old Posted Mar 20, 2019, 7:15 PM
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Like others said, there's accuracy in this statement.

I personally believe tax dollars were a big reason ontario doesn't want a new bridge. When you add it all up-its a lot of revenue. 1 household that works in Ottawa but moves to gatineau results in no property tax, no income tax, no provincial portion of HST on groceries gas and other purchases...its 10k+ per year per family-if not way more. If Ontario loses 1000 residents, 10K per family annually equates 100 million over 10 years. Don't hold me to the actual numbers (I think they are higher) but the general idea of lost tax revenue is likely playing a role in the Ontario provincial government not wanting the bridge.
Not holding you to your numbers, but you are under estimating by a significant margin. Using the same OD Report, in 2011, during the AM commute, 22,300 more people worked in Ottawa than lived in Ottawa. Conversely 22,300 fewer people worked in the Outaouais than lived in the Outaouais.
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  #1664  
Old Posted Mar 20, 2019, 7:19 PM
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You can't compare two data points to determine a trend. There could be other factors at play that caused a temporary spike or dip (or both). It is the type of thing that is interesting to note (which the study did), but you can't draw any conclusions from it. Using the three data points they provided (still not enough to truly detect a trend), the trend is still up (see Excel plot below).





Using the data from the OD Report above, it indicates that between 3 and 3.5 times as many people commute from the Outaouais to Ottawa as from Ottawa to the Outaouais.



Also true, but (using the same data) where about 2.5 to 3 times as many who live in the Outaouais work in the Outaouais vs Ottawa, about 25 times as many people who live Ottawa work in Ottawa vs. the Outaouais.
It all sounds about right.

Still with the slice-and-dice, Gatineau residents occupy just under 10% of the jobs located on Ottawa territory.

Owing to Ottawa's much bigger size, Ottawa residents occupy between a fifth and a quarter of the jobs in Gatineau. In the Hull sector in particular, Ontario residents may actually make up the majority of workers.

Of course, most of these jobs on either side of the river are in federal institutions.

So it's a bit off to claim that someone who works at Stats Can in Tunney's Pasture is holding down a City of Ottawa/Province of Ontario job strictu sensu, just like it's odd to claim a job with Environment Canada at Place Vincent Massey is a City of Gatineau/Province of Quebec job.
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  #1665  
Old Posted Mar 20, 2019, 7:22 PM
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Not holding you to your numbers, but you are under estimating by a significant margin. Using the same OD Report, in 2011, during the AM commute, 22,300 more people worked in Ottawa than lived in Ottawa. Conversely 22,300 fewer people worked in the Outaouais than lived in the Outaouais.
I think he was talking about new Ontario-to-Quebec moves that might be induced by a new bridge.
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  #1666  
Old Posted Mar 20, 2019, 7:40 PM
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I think he was talking about new Ontario-to-Quebec moves that might be induced by a new bridge.
Ahh. My bad.

How many employment opportunities are there east of the Rideau and Gatineau rivers? Those would be the primary beneficiaries of an eastern bridge. It would be less useful for those who work in downtown Ottawa or Hull (though it could be of some benefit to them).
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  #1667  
Old Posted Mar 20, 2019, 7:40 PM
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These types of tensions exist in other places too, but I'd say that for a city at the heart of a fairly large metropolitan region, Ottawa is on the high end when it comes to nitpicking and nickel-and-diming over who lives where and who works where.

Most of the time when you have this type of thing going on, it's in distressed areas where people are desperate to pull an ever-shrinking blanket over to their side.

For a consistently prosperous city that usually has plenty of jobs to go around for everyone (and more) to be like this - I'd say it's a pretty unique phenomenon.
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  #1668  
Old Posted Mar 20, 2019, 8:51 PM
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Ahh. My bad.

How many employment opportunities are there east of the Rideau and Gatineau rivers? Those would be the primary beneficiaries of an eastern bridge. It would be less useful for those who work in downtown Ottawa or Hull (though it could be of some benefit to them).
There are probably 40-50,000 jobs east of the Gatineau River and twice as many or maybe more east of the Rideau River.

A bridge in that part of the region would definitely not be a bridge to nowhere.
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  #1669  
Old Posted Mar 20, 2019, 11:25 PM
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Originally Posted by roger1818 View Post
This has been posted on this forum many times over the years, but here is the map of the routing:


The routing of STO buses off of Wellington to Slater via Lyon is a little concerning. Right now, traffic from Wellington onto Lyon is a complete mess, and that's with all the STO buses attempting to bypass it all using the left-most lane on Wellington.

Has anyone come across any detail of how they plan to implement that change? Will they convert the right-most lane of Wellington to a bus/HOV lane? There are a lot of STO buses coming over during the morning rush
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  #1670  
Old Posted Mar 21, 2019, 1:09 AM
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'People should be celebrating this': Catherine McKenna endorses federal budget's interprovincial bridge revival

Taylor Blewett, Ottawa Citizen
Updated: March 20, 2019


Ottawa Centre MP and Environment Minister Catherine McKenna says people should be celebrating her government’s decision, announced in this week’s federal budget, to revive the development of a new interprovincial bridge in the National Capital Region.

“It is a bit strange that we have heavy-duty trucks going though the centre of Ottawa. I think everyone would agree that’s sub-par,” McKenna told this newspaper Wednesday. “This is an opportunity to step back and have a holistic vision.”

The budget’s directive that the National Capital Commission be tasked with “refreshing existing studies and developing a long-term integrated interprovincial crossing plan” in concert with provincial and municipal governments has been met with surprise and frustration by the mayors of Ottawa and Gatineau.

The last proposal for a sixth interprovincial bridge was shelved in 2013, when community uproar derailed a plan to build a crossing in the east end over Kettle Island, connecting Ottawa’s Aviation Parkway with Gatineau’s Montée Paiement.

Diverting heavy truck traffic from downtown Ottawa, and making the current Nicholas Street and King Edward Avenue truck route safer for pedestrians, cyclists and other motorists has been a significant part of the motivation for those in favour of building an additional crossing.

After the Kettle Island bridge plan was abandoned, the City of Ottawa began exploring the idea of building a traffic tunnel from Highway 417, through Sandy Hill and Lowertown, to the mouth of the Macdonald-Cartier Bridge.

Right now, both Ottawa and Gatineau are focused on public transportation and light rail transit, Gatineau Mayor Maxime Pedneaud-Jobin said Tuesday. The city of Gatineau rolled out its own LRT plan last summer, including linkages with Ottawa’s Confederation LRT Line. Ottawa’s plans for Stage 2 LRT also mention a northern connection with Gatineau.

Within the next 10 years, Jobin said Tuesday, both cars and buses will find themselves seriously struggling with interprovincial traffic.

“The answer is that project connecting to the LRT” — not, he says, a new interprovincial bridge for motorists.

“I don’t know why the focus is suddenly just on ‘This means more cars,’” said McKenna. “My focus is really, and our focus is really, on getting people around in the community in the cleanest, cheapest, most efficient way, and a logical approach, which brings together Gatineau and Ottawa. So I think people should be celebrating this, and we should be working with the National Capital Commission.”

As for what form the bridge might take, “I think there’s been no discussion on this, they’re just looking at studies,” McKenna said.

She said the federal government is committed to public transportation. It’s investing significantly in the capital’s LRT network, and is making an additional $57 million available to Ottawa through a one-time gas tax transfer increase that can be put toward transit.

https://ottawacitizen.com/news/local-new...l-budgets-interprovincial-bridge-revival
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  #1671  
Old Posted Mar 21, 2019, 1:36 AM
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Originally Posted by roger1818 View Post

How many employment opportunities are there east of the Rideau and Gatineau rivers? Those would be the primary beneficiaries of an eastern bridge. It would be less useful for those who work in downtown Ottawa or Hull (though it could be of some benefit to them).
Many sources of truck traffic on both sides: Amazon, Canada Post, courier companies, significant portion of the industrial and land in both cities.

Significant retail. PdeG, StL, TY, Innes big box corridor.
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  #1672  
Old Posted Mar 21, 2019, 1:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Horus View Post
The routing of STO buses off of Wellington to Slater via Lyon is a little concerning. Right now, traffic from Wellington onto Lyon is a complete mess, and that's with all the STO buses attempting to bypass it all using the left-most lane on Wellington.

Has anyone come across any detail of how they plan to implement that change? Will they convert the right-most lane of Wellington to a bus/HOV lane? There are a lot of STO buses coming over during the morning rush
My guess is they will move the HOV lane on the Portage bridge to the right lane southbound (currently it is the left lane) and then make the right lane on Wellington and Lyon for buses only during peak periods.

To me the question is how will they have the buses make the left turn onto Slater from the right lane on Lyon? Will the buses have to change 2 lanes between Albert and Slater or will they give the buses a special signal to turn left from the right lane?
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  #1673  
Old Posted Mar 21, 2019, 2:06 AM
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There are probably 40-50,000 jobs east of the Gatineau River and twice as many or maybe more east of the Rideau River.

A bridge in that part of the region would definitely not be a bridge to nowhere.
Thanks. Being in the west end (both live and work) I really wasn't sure.

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Originally Posted by acottawa View Post
Many sources of truck traffic on both sides: Amazon, Canada Post, courier companies, significant portion of the industrial and land in both cities.

Significant retail. PdeG, StL, TY, Innes big box corridor.
My comment was in response to daud saying that an east bridge would encourage people who work in Ottawa to move to Gatineau. Unless you are talking about people driving pickup trucks to work, I don't see how "truck traffic on both sides" will encourage that migration.

Even with a bridge, Amazon might be a bit far a commute for someone to move to Gatineau for a low paying, warehouse job. Are retail and courier companies a significant source of employment?
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  #1674  
Old Posted Mar 21, 2019, 1:57 PM
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I don't think retail is a big employment. Ottawa is a federal employment hub. Not sure about the exact percentage.
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  #1675  
Old Posted Mar 26, 2019, 3:50 PM
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Hog's Back Swing and Deck Bridges

I have some more information on the Hog's Back bridge projects.

Essentially the swing bridge will be closed for 9 months from Aug 2019 to May 2020. And the deck bridge will be closed starting in Spring 2020.

Deck Bridge Repair Website

Carleton University traffic will be greatly impacted by this closure and they have a website with more information: HERE

They will extend Raven Road to Bronson to allow left in and right out for buses only.

Create a right-in, right-out from Parking Lot 5 to Bronson Ave

This is also all happening when the O-train will be shut down so they will see a large increase in bus traffic as well / or people driving into campus instead of dealing with replacement bus service.

Fun times ahead...
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  #1676  
Old Posted Mar 26, 2019, 6:44 PM
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Originally Posted by MountainView View Post
I have some more information on the Hog's Back bridge projects.

Essentially the swing bridge will be closed for 9 months from Aug 2019 to May 2020. And the deck bridge will be closed starting in Spring 2020.

Deck Bridge Repair Website

Carleton University traffic will be greatly impacted by this closure and they have a website with more information: HERE

They will extend Raven Road to Bronson to allow left in and right out for buses only.

Create a right-in, right-out from Parking Lot 5 to Bronson Ave

This is also all happening when the O-train will be shut down so they will see a large increase in bus traffic as well / or people driving into campus instead of dealing with replacement bus service.

Fun times ahead...
this is going to slow down traffic from the south, on both sides of the river, as well as increase traffic on alternate crossings (baseline, hunt club bridge).
southern commuters are in for a fun winter next year.
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  #1677  
Old Posted Mar 26, 2019, 7:36 PM
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When you look at the Alexandra Bridge you remind yourself that is what the 4th longest cantilever span in the world at the time, and longest in Canada;it was a real feat of engineering, and an other example of Canada being at the forefront of technology and engineering at the time. 1898-1901 was the construction period. To put that in context these were the last years of the Victorian era with the Queen passing in 1901.

As long as the heritage is respected I trust the bridge people when they say it has to come down.

The Forth Bridge opened in 1890 and is still going strong.
The Fourth Bridge is twinned and twinned again with modern bridges. It carries only trains, and only intermittently. Hence less wear-and-tear, and no salt.

Changing the bridge from rail to car traffic was the cause of it's demise. That, and our insane addiction to salt on roads.

There's only so much painting and repainting you can do to protect the major structural elements from corrosion, especially with such a beautiful riveted component bridge. There's lots of crevices and folds into which salt water can travel. Eventually you end up with such a mess of patchy welds, plates, and over-patching that you lose the integrity of the major structural members. In that case, there's nothing to be done, it's not like you can shore up the bridge, remove one of the tension members, and replace it and voila! new bridge.

Like the articles state, there are ways to rebuild sections, enlarge areas, rebuild piers, etc. but then you'd end up with another generation of (stronger) patches and rebuilt sections, but still requires very frequent expensive maintenance. PLUS the refurbishment is just as costly as building a new bridge.

I had an idea. How about building cable-stay piers and providing beams at regular intervals beneath the existing bridge deck to provide support. This way the loads are removed from the existing steel frame! Voila!

OR remove automobile traffic altogether, keep the existing abutment and first pier on the Ottawa side as a lookout and vestige of the past, and build a beautiful, landmark, cable-stay twin directly adjacent to the existing bridge.
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  #1678  
Old Posted Mar 27, 2019, 2:04 AM
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City drops the hammer on developers, utilities who slow traffic and damage roads

Jon Willing, Ottawa Citizen
Updated: March 26, 2019


The City of Ottawa is sick of developers and utility companies mucking up the roads with too much risk falling on municipal taxpayers.

Proposed changes to the 16-year-old road activity bylaw would give city hall more protection against cheaply done road repairs when companies, or even one of its own departments, need to dig up part of a road to access underground infrastructure.

If staff recommendations receive council’s endorsement next month, home builders, Hydro Ottawa, Bell Canada and anyone else who needs to crack open roads and sidewalks could pay more municipal fees and come under greater scrutiny by new municipal inspectors starting mid-year.

Many of the utility lines that deliver water, sewer, gas, phone, internet, and electricity run under the roads. Work on those lines inevitably means the road needs to be dug up so workers can access the infrastructure. New homes, for example, need connections into the lines that run under roads and sidewalks.

According to a city report published this week, 5,334 road cut permits were issued in 2018. Most of the permits are in the urban area, with only 14 per cent of those issued between 2016 and 2018 issued for a rural community.

Those road cuts can be annoying to a neighbourhood if the work to reinstate the road is shoddy.

Under the current rules, permit holders are required to make any necessary repairs on their road cuts for three years before the city is on the hook. The proposed changes would knock the warranty period down to two years to offset stricter measures imposed by city hall.

Part of those stricter measures include charging more fees for road cuts.

The city is supposed to charge a pavement degradation fee for road cuts on arterial roads based on the age of the road and size of the cut. According to the report, the city hasn’t been collecting the fees since 2013 because of the “administrative burden” of assessing the road cuts and collecting the apparent scraps of money. (The city says between 2003 and 2013, the most collected in one year was $30,000).

Now, the city wants to go after pavement degradation fees for more roads, not just arterial roads.

The proposal would have the city also charge the fee for cuts on roads classified as local, collector, major collector and municipal freeway. City departments would have to pay, too.

The city anticipates more revenue would come in from pavement degradation fees. The estimated $330,000 extra would be spent on road resurfacing projects starting in 2020.

In addition, the city wants more financial protection against bad road-cut repairs. It has been collecting $2,500 per cut as a security deposit, but corrective work costs more.

Insurance provisions would also be impacted by the bylaw changes. Instead of requiring permit applicants to have an insurance policy worth $2 million, the city wants to increase the insurance requirement to a $5-million policy.

The changes would come into effect on July 1.

The city wants to hire two full-time inspectors, bringing the number to three inspectors, and acquire three new vehicles to enforce the bylaw.

A second phase of the bylaw review, which will generate a similar report in 2020, is expected to have more recommendations on the amount the city charges for pavement degradation fees.

The next phase could bring stronger rules on cutting into all newly resurfaced roads. A higher level of scrutiny is applied to permit applications for only arterial roads that have been resurfaced or reconstructed in the previous three years. The city wants the same rigour applied to all roads.

The proposed bylaw changes also aim to make sure the city’s traffic flows aren’t messed up during the road work.

Anyone who wants to cut the road has to submit a traffic management plan if the road is an arterial or collector with a bus route, which means more than 75 per cent of the arterial and collector roads don’t require a traffic plan during a road cut. The city now wants all road cut permits for collector, major collector, arterial and freeway roads to come with a traffic plan.

Where the city currently bans road work during peak periods — between 7 a.m. and 9 a.m. and between 3:30 p.m. and 5:30 p.m. — on arterial and collector roads with bus routes, it now wants to extend the afternoon prohibition 30 minutes to 6 p.m. and also apply the weekday time restrictions to all collector, major collector arterial and freeway roads.

The proposed bylaw changes would also provide a longer notification period so the public would know earlier when the work is scheduled to happen.

Construction and utility companies have raised red flags over the proposed bylaw changes.

According to the city report, the Greater Ottawa Home Builders’ Association has warned that the proposed changes will impact smaller builders. Bell Canada told the city that it’s “unreasonable” to require traffic plans for more roads and to expand peak-hour road work restrictions. Hydro Ottawa expressed concern about having to create traffic plans.

Council would need to approve the amendments to the bylaw. The changes must first get the transportation committee’s endorsement on April 3.

[email protected]
twitter.com/JonathanWilling

https://ottawacitizen.com/news/local-new...lities-who-slow-traffic-and-damage-roads
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  #1679  
Old Posted Mar 27, 2019, 2:31 PM
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Originally Posted by rocketphish View Post
City drops the hammer on developers, utilities who slow traffic and damage roads

Jon Willing, Ottawa Citizen
Updated: March 26, 2019


The City of Ottawa is sick of developers and utility companies mucking up the roads with too much risk falling on municipal taxpayers.

Proposed changes to the 16-year-old road activity bylaw would give city hall more protection against cheaply done road repairs when companies, or even one of its own departments, need to dig up part of a road to access underground infrastructure.

If staff recommendations receive council’s endorsement next month, home builders, Hydro Ottawa, Bell Canada and anyone else who needs to crack open roads and sidewalks could pay more municipal fees and come under greater scrutiny by new municipal inspectors starting mid-year.

Many of the utility lines that deliver water, sewer, gas, phone, internet, and electricity run under the roads. Work on those lines inevitably means the road needs to be dug up so workers can access the infrastructure. New homes, for example, need connections into the lines that run under roads and sidewalks.

According to a city report published this week, 5,334 road cut permits were issued in 2018. Most of the permits are in the urban area, with only 14 per cent of those issued between 2016 and 2018 issued for a rural community.

Those road cuts can be annoying to a neighbourhood if the work to reinstate the road is shoddy.

Under the current rules, permit holders are required to make any necessary repairs on their road cuts for three years before the city is on the hook. The proposed changes would knock the warranty period down to two years to offset stricter measures imposed by city hall.

Part of those stricter measures include charging more fees for road cuts.

The city is supposed to charge a pavement degradation fee for road cuts on arterial roads based on the age of the road and size of the cut. According to the report, the city hasn’t been collecting the fees since 2013 because of the “administrative burden” of assessing the road cuts and collecting the apparent scraps of money. (The city says between 2003 and 2013, the most collected in one year was $30,000).

Now, the city wants to go after pavement degradation fees for more roads, not just arterial roads.

The proposal would have the city also charge the fee for cuts on roads classified as local, collector, major collector and municipal freeway. City departments would have to pay, too.

The city anticipates more revenue would come in from pavement degradation fees. The estimated $330,000 extra would be spent on road resurfacing projects starting in 2020.

In addition, the city wants more financial protection against bad road-cut repairs. It has been collecting $2,500 per cut as a security deposit, but corrective work costs more.

Insurance provisions would also be impacted by the bylaw changes. Instead of requiring permit applicants to have an insurance policy worth $2 million, the city wants to increase the insurance requirement to a $5-million policy.

The changes would come into effect on July 1.

The city wants to hire two full-time inspectors, bringing the number to three inspectors, and acquire three new vehicles to enforce the bylaw.

A second phase of the bylaw review, which will generate a similar report in 2020, is expected to have more recommendations on the amount the city charges for pavement degradation fees.

The next phase could bring stronger rules on cutting into all newly resurfaced roads. A higher level of scrutiny is applied to permit applications for only arterial roads that have been resurfaced or reconstructed in the previous three years. The city wants the same rigour applied to all roads.

The proposed bylaw changes also aim to make sure the city’s traffic flows aren’t messed up during the road work.

Anyone who wants to cut the road has to submit a traffic management plan if the road is an arterial or collector with a bus route, which means more than 75 per cent of the arterial and collector roads don’t require a traffic plan during a road cut. The city now wants all road cut permits for collector, major collector, arterial and freeway roads to come with a traffic plan.

Where the city currently bans road work during peak periods — between 7 a.m. and 9 a.m. and between 3:30 p.m. and 5:30 p.m. — on arterial and collector roads with bus routes, it now wants to extend the afternoon prohibition 30 minutes to 6 p.m. and also apply the weekday time restrictions to all collector, major collector arterial and freeway roads.

The proposed bylaw changes would also provide a longer notification period so the public would know earlier when the work is scheduled to happen.

Construction and utility companies have raised red flags over the proposed bylaw changes.

According to the city report, the Greater Ottawa Home Builders’ Association has warned that the proposed changes will impact smaller builders. Bell Canada told the city that it’s “unreasonable” to require traffic plans for more roads and to expand peak-hour road work restrictions. Hydro Ottawa expressed concern about having to create traffic plans.

Council would need to approve the amendments to the bylaw. The changes must first get the transportation committee’s endorsement on April 3.

[email protected]
twitter.com/JonathanWilling

https://ottawacitizen.com/news/local-new...lities-who-slow-traffic-and-damage-roads
Horray! No more stupid corrupt companies breaking up our tax money infrastructure to make more money!
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  #1680  
Old Posted Mar 27, 2019, 5:32 PM
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In addition to the Queensway work, there is a new 416 project for this year
https://news.ontario.ca/mto/en/2019/03/highway-projects-across-ontario.html

Cedarview/W. Huntclub Rd. interchange, intersection improvement & commuter lot, Bankfield/Brophy Dr
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