Speech pattern and typographical variations across Canada

[SignalHillHiker]

Originally Posted by Acajack

How do you pronounce "Maher"?

Is it "Mair"?

Here it's Marr. But it's not a common name so his family would've had the luxury of setting the pronunciation themselves.

[Acajack]

When the allegations first came out against Harvey Weinstein, the Quebec media (who had never heard of him until then) instinctively pronounced his last name "vine-schtein".

It's only after the story matured a bit that they started saying "wine-steen".

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Acajack

When the allegations first came out against Harvey Weinstein, the Quebec media (who had never heard of him until then) instinctively pronounced his last name "vine-schtein".

It's only after the story matured a bit that they started saying "wine-steen".

Should be "Wine-stine", logically.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

Should be "Wine-stine", logically.

Yeah, at the very least for consistency's sake the "ein" sound should be the same.

But if you consider the name's Germanic roots the most logical is still "vine-schtein".

[MonctonRad]

There is no logical consistency in the way names are spelled and pronounced in English, especially if they have Welsh roots.

eg:

Toews = Taves
Dalzell = Dee-el

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by SignalHillHiker

Here it's Marr. But it's not a common name so his family would've had the luxury of setting the pronunciation themselves.

Marr or Ma'er, I think. I recall a "Maher Shoes" many years ago in DTK that for some reason we called "Ma-HARRS".

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Yeah, at the very least for consistency's sake the "ein" sound should be the same.

But if you consider the name's Germanic roots the most logical is still "vine-schtein".

Yes - if we were speaking German.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

Yes - if we were speaking German.

I don't think the language we are speaking is necessarily the main determinant of how names are pronounced. We don't pronounce every single name by reading it out according to the sounds of our language.

In the case of Harvey Weinstein and most others, acculturation and assimilation are likely far more important factors when it comes to how people say their own names. Some people insist on the traditional pronunciation, and it sometimes might last for several generations. Other people choose to immediately "adapt" their name cold turkey to their new home.

A fun video on this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7WmTsLO-hUI

[kwoldtimer]

Reminds me of the widespread shift in recent years of the family name "Fraser" from "FRAY-zer" to "FRAY-zhure" (however one would render it), thanks to the TV show.

[rousseau]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

There is no logical consistency in the way names are spelled and pronounced in English, especially if they have Welsh roots.

eg:

Toews = Taves

Whoa, that's not Welsh, that's German. It's a classic Russian-Mennonite name that you see all over southern Manitoba, the writer Miriam Toews being one of the more famous of those thus surnamed.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by rousseau

Whoa, that's not Welsh, that's German. It's a classic Russian-Mennonite name that you see all over southern Manitoba, the writer Miriam Toews being one of the more famous of those thus surnamed.

Didn't know that. Stlll pronounced TAVES though.

EDIT - just checked. You're wrong on this one rousseau

The name Toews can be traced to the ancient Celtic culture of Wales. The surname Toews is derived from the Welsh word "tew," which means "portly" or "plump," and was most likely originally a nickname for a heavy-set person.

[Acajack]

I always thought Toews was a Mennonnite name: Vic Toews, Jonathan Toews...

Oh well...

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I always thought Toews was a Mennonnite name: Vic Toews, Jonathan Toews...

Oh well...

I had a Mr. Toews as an English teacher in junior high school in Charlottetown. If he were a Mennonite, he must have been the only one in all of PEI.

Maybe there's a Mennonite branch and a Welsh branch for the surname.

[Capsicum]

Originally Posted by SignalHillHiker

Here it's Marr. But it's not a common name so his family would've had the luxury of setting the pronunciation themselves.

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

There is no logical consistency in the way names are spelled and pronounced in English, especially if they have Welsh roots.

eg:

Toews = Taves
Dalzell = Dee-el

Originally Posted by Acajack

I don't think the language we are speaking is necessarily the main determinant of how names are pronounced. We don't pronounce every single name by reading it out according to the sounds of our language.

In the case of Harvey Weinstein and most others, acculturation and assimilation are likely far more important factors when it comes to how people say their own names. Some people insist on the traditional pronunciation, and it sometimes might last for several generations. Other people choose to immediately "adapt" their name cold turkey to their new home.

A fun video on this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7WmTsLO-hUI

Thus it can be tricky, without asking, to figure out whether it's better to stick to a "traditional" pronunciation (if you know what people consider the "traditional" form or have heard others use the "traditional" one) as a first pass assumption for encountering a new person's name, or not.

When I was in the US, I noticed lots of Americans with French-origin names go by anglicized forms that I wasn't familiar with in Canada (eg. pronouncing the -dieux as "dew" in their name), as even Anglophones in Canada with French surnames generally stick closer to the French pronunciation.

There are also articles and discussions about "cultural sensitivity" that say you should try to pronounce immigrants' names authentically out of respect.

But there are cases where assimilated immigrants and their descendants actually dislike the "authentic" pronunciation. So, it's hard to make a blanket statement. It may be that for first generation immigrants, it may be more likely that attempting an authentic pronunciation shows more respect to the newcomer (as you are trying to make an effort), and later generations care less but again, that's not always the case. So, I guess, when it doubt, ask the individual?

[rousseau]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Didn't know that. Stlll pronounced TAVES though.

Well yeah, that's the German pronunciation.

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

EDIT - just checked. You're wrong on this one rousseau

This must be a coincidence then, because there's basically zero chance that Dutch in 16th century Holland who began following Menno Simons and later moved to Prussia and eventually Ukraine (before coming to North and South America in the 19th century and again in the 1920s following the Russian Revolution) had any contact or intermingling with the Welsh.

That is, unless numerous Germanic surnames trace their origins to the ancient Celts? But since there are probably no Welsh people surnamed Toews, while it has been in use in Russian Mennonite communities going back to the 16th century in Holland, I'd say it's more accurate to call it a Russian Mennonite surname with Dutch origins.

Edit: That page you cite notes Welsh people named Tew and a whack of Russian Mennonites named Toews. If Tew really is Celtic in origin, then I would guess that it and Toews are not related, as I don't think the Celts did much cross-Channel travel north of Brittany.

[SignalHillHiker]

Originally Posted by Capsicum

Thus it can be tricky, without asking, to figure out whether it's better to stick to a "traditional" pronunciation (if you know what people consider the "traditional" form or have heard others use the "traditional" one) as a first pass assumption for encountering a new person's name, or not.

When I was in the US, I noticed lots of Americans with French-origin names go by anglicized forms that I wasn't familiar with in Canada (eg. pronouncing the -dieux as "dew" in their name), as even Anglophones in Canada with French surnames generally stick closer to the French pronunciation.

There are also articles and discussions about "cultural sensitivity" that say you should try to pronounce immigrants' names authentically out of respect.

But there are cases where assimilated immigrants and their descendants actually dislike the "authentic" pronunciation. So, it's hard to make a blanket statement. It may be that for first generation immigrants, it may be more likely that attempting an authentic pronunciation shows more respect to the newcomer (as you are trying to make an effort), and later generations care less but again, that's not always the case. So, I guess, when it doubt, ask the individual?

There's a way to pronounce things as correctly as possible without it being unnatural and jarring. One of NTV's reporters is a Beaudoin with French pronunciation and the way she says it when signing off its like Adolf Hitler switched places with her to scream that one word. Even if I'm not paying attention to the news, her saying Beaudoin jerks me out of my thoughts. It's atrocious.

Meanwhile there are lots of Anglicized Francophones who pronounce their surnames the French way without putting the fear of God into listeners. If you're going to try to pronounce foreign names correctly, at least maintain your tone and cadence.

[rousseau]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

I had a Mr. Toews as an English teacher in junior high school in Charlottetown. If he were a Mennonite, he must have been the only one in all of PEI.

Can you find him and ask?

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by rousseau

Can you find him and ask?

If he were still alive, he would be well into his 90s. I have no idea where he would be now.

[Andy6]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

I had a Mr. Toews as an English teacher in junior high school in Charlottetown. If he were a Mennonite, he must have been the only one in all of PEI.

Maybe there's a Mennonite branch and a Welsh branch for the surname.

If so, I would guess that the Mennonite branch is 100 if not 1000 times the size of the Welsh branch. It’s one of the most common surnames in Manitoba, as are a couple dozen other Mennonite names. Strange that it would also exist in Wales with that odd spelling.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Capsicum

Thus it can be tricky, without asking, to figure out whether it's better to stick to a "traditional" pronunciation (if you know what people consider the "traditional" form or have heard others use the "traditional" one) as a first pass assumption for encountering a new person's name, or not.

When I was in the US, I noticed lots of Americans with French-origin names go by anglicized forms that I wasn't familiar with in Canada (eg. pronouncing the -dieux as "dew" in their name), as even Anglophones in Canada with French surnames generally stick closer to the French pronunciation.

There are also articles and discussions about "cultural sensitivity" that say you should try to pronounce immigrants' names authentically out of respect.

But there are cases where assimilated immigrants and their descendants actually dislike the "authentic" pronunciation. So, it's hard to make a blanket statement. It may be that for first generation immigrants, it may be more likely that attempting an authentic pronunciation shows more respect to the newcomer (as you are trying to make an effort), and later generations care less but again, that's not always the case. So, I guess, when it doubt, ask the individual?

When in doubt I always go with the most obvious origin of the name. So if your name is Cerutti, you'll get a "tchuh-rootti" from me until you tell me it's actually "suh-rootti".

Also, it's not just an issue with immigrant names. Some names with deep roots in the country have different pronunciations out there.

For example, for the names Chabot and Tardif they might be pronounced with the last letter either silent or pronounced by different families in Quebec.