Speech pattern and typographical variations across Canada

[JHikka]

As a Maritimer living in Ontario apparently I say bagel weird? I guess there's two ways to say it (BAE-gill, BAH-gill) and I say it somewhere in between.

Originally Posted by esquire

Yeah, I've never heard of anyone being corrected by an actual Pakistani person to pronounce it with an 'o' sound, i.e. pock vs. pack.

Pockistan is the more British pronunciation, isn't it? I've never been corrected saying either.

[esquire]

^ I always thought it was bay-gull but I've heard enough people say bag-ill in recent years to make me wonder.

And yes, the 'pockiston' definitely has a British sound to it, but South Asian English speakers often have British accents to some extent which is not surprising considering the history of the region. So it is weird that the western phenomenon of saying 'pockiston' is basically reverting to the British way of saying it.

[SignalHillHiker]

Definitely bae-gill. Community mercilessly made fun of Britta for saying bah-gill.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by esquire

And yes, the 'pockiston' definitely has a British sound to it, but South Asian English speakers often have British accents to some extent which is not surprising considering the history of the region. So it is weird that the western phenomenon of saying 'pockiston' is basically reverting to the British way of saying it.

I think it's an example of hyperforeignism. There are a few sounds that English speakers use that are considered "exotic". J ("zh") is one and the -aw type sound is another. These seem particularly common in the US.

Habanero is the canonical example of this. There is no "ñ" in habanero in Spanish, it's something English speakers add.

Britain's a mix between "a" and "aw", but the stereotypical US East Coast Brahmin type accent converts as much as possible to "aw". This seems to be catching on in Canada too.

Nazi used to be "natzi", as in "at", and that's the older British pronunciation. Now a lot more people say "nawtzi" instead.

[Andy6]

Originally Posted by someone123

I think it's an example of hyperforeignism. There are a few sounds that English speakers use that are considered "exotic". J ("zh") is one and the -aw type sound is another. These seem particularly common in the US.

Habanero is the canonical example of this. There is no "ñ" in habanero in Spanish, it's something English speakers add.

Britain's a mix between "a" and "aw", but the stereotypical US East Coast Brahmin type accent converts as much as possible to "aw". This seems to be catching on in Canada too.

Nazi used to be "natzi", as in "at", and that's the older British pronunciation. Now a lot more people say "nawtzi" instead.

Yes, the last sound shift is very noticeable in words like “pasta”, where Canadians have succumbed to the American vowel influence. When I was a philosophy student 35 years ago, “Kant” was always pronounced as “can’t”, but by the turn of the century it was almost universally “Kahnt”, even in Canada.

[CivicBlues]

Originally Posted by esquire

In an effort to prevent being an oblivious older person myself (or at the very least, to prevent from becoming even more oblivious than I am now), maybe I should ask this here. I've been hearing more and more "Pock-iston" instead of the more familiar "Pakistan" of the past.

I always took "Pockiston" to just be "Pakistan" with a South Asian accent. But now white folks are saying it that way. Can someone fill me in?

I don't think it's POCkistOn they're saying. It's more like "PAHKistAHn" the pronunciation of the letter A in most other languages besides English sounds more like "Ah" than "Aaa".

Another interesting tidbit I picked up in recent news is how Huawei and Huang is pronounced by white news casters as Wah-Way and Wang respectively. As if they can't pronounce the H-w sound. For Asian language speakers it's always been Hwa-Way and H-wang

[esquire]

^ Hyundai is similar, as the 'y' disappears from the English pronunciation. "hun-day" (or "hun-dye") instead of "hyeon-day"

And to Andy6's point, that change with the Kant example must have happened fast, because I took a couple of undergrad philosophy courses in the late 90s and it was cont all the way, I don't recall hearing can't at all.

[SignalHillHiker]

I'm still "Can't", but also definitely "Nahtzee".

[lio45]

Originally Posted by The Chemist

Why? Post / Postal code is the standard in English speaking countries outside the USA.

Why? Because every time we're exposed to the English version of "un code postal" (in books or on TV), it gets into our brain that it's called a zipcode in English.

I had to do an online transfer yesterday evening and noticed that the online banking portal of Quebec's largest bank (Desjardins) had the legend next to that line saying "Code postal/Zipcode" (the other lines had stuff like "Ville/City"), so I haven't been the only one making that mistake.

[begratto]

Originally Posted by CivicBlues

I don't think it's POCkistOn they're saying. It's more like "PAHKistAHn" the pronunciation of the letter A in most other languages besides English sounds more like "Ah" than "Aaa".

Another interesting tidbit I picked up in recent news is how Huawei and Huang is pronounced by white news casters as Wah-Way and Wang respectively. As if they can't pronounce the H-w sound. For Asian language speakers it's always been Hwa-Way and H-wang

According to this video posted by Huawei, it should be pronounced "Wah-Way".

[rousseau]

Originally Posted by SignalHillHiker

Oh Jesus that second "car". That's exactly what I was trying to reference. It's slower than normal, but it has all those extra syllables the same as when mainlanders say it. It's like they're singing it. Cah-oh-ah-oh-ahr!

You're suggesting that it's the Maritime "kerr" for "car" that, uh, doesn't sound weird? In that case: Do you go to a berr for a drink? Find it troublesome if it's ferr away? Look up at night to gaze at the sterrs? Are these eccentric pronunciations perr for the course?

Originally Posted by CivicBlues

Another interesting tidbit I picked up in recent news is how Huawei and Huang is pronounced by white news casters as Wah-Way and Wang respectively. As if they can't pronounce the H-w sound. For Asian language speakers it's always been Hwa-Way and H-wang

Correction: Chinese speakers pronounce it the right way, not "Asian-language" speakers per se, who can't be expected to pronounce languages foreign to them properly without any training. Save for Japanese, which is easy.

After being back in Canada for so long I've stopped trying to maintain Chinese pronunciations for some things. I no longer wince at "tofu" with a hard T (should actually be a D sound), and even say it like that myself now. I've started saying "Zess-shwan" for "Szechuan" instead of the Chinese "Si-chwan" because people tend to know the former better. I'll even say "taichee" for "tai chi" instead of the Chinese "taijee."

But "Beijing" will always have a hard J sound, as the French J sounds alien to me. I think it's invariably changing in the media as well, what with it being the capital city of our new overlords.

At the same time, in English "Taipei" has a P sound, and in Chinese it is pronounced with a B, and never the twain shall meet. People who've lived in Taiwan and use the B when speaking English ("Taibei") are pretentious twats.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by rousseau

You're suggesting that it's the Maritime "kerr" for "car" that, uh, doesn't sound weird? In that case: Do you go to a berr for a drink? Find it troublesome if it's ferr away? Look up at night to gaze at the sterrs? Are these eccentric pronunciations perr for the course?

The accent applies to any -ar sound, not just car (and not just at the end of words; "art" is like this too). It's not quite the same as "-er" or "-air" (I think the sound doesn't exist in standard Canadian or North American English).

"Art" makes me think of how "t" sounds are often different in Atlantic Canada (softer, not a full stop; not the same thing as tapping or dropping these sounds).

Debating about what is correct or normal is kind of pointless (most Canadians don't feel that they pronounce "knife" incorrectly) but when you have that accent and it's not an affect, pronunciations other than what you're used to sound odd. That's probably a key part of having an accent versus just trying to pronounce something a certain way.

[rousseau]

Originally Posted by begratto

According to this video posted by Huawei, it should be pronounced "Wah-Way".

That's interesting. It's not correct, it really is pronounced "hwa-way," but because we don't really have that plosive HW sound in English it sounds more like "wah-way," so I guess they've gone with that for PR purposes.

The actual pronunciation of the HW is like a less breathy version of how Stewie says "cool whip": https://youtu.be/CMopBpOfv_E?t=51

[esquire]

^ easier to explain it as wah way, which is close enough, than trying to explain the hwa-sound which is pretty unusual for English speakers.

As to Beijing, Canadians really do love saying it as though it were a French name, beige-ing. The beauty of Mandarin Chinese is that things sound exactly as they're written. Bay Jing. Easy peasy.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by esquire

In an effort to prevent being an oblivious older person myself (or at the very least, to prevent from becoming even more oblivious than I am now), maybe I should ask this here. I've been hearing more and more "Pock-iston" instead of the more familiar "Pakistan" of the past.

I always took "Pockiston" to just be "Pakistan" with a South Asian accent. But now white folks are saying it that way. Can someone fill me in?

I think "Pock" is your effort to render what I would write as "Pahk" (think "spa")). Iran and Iraq can benefit from that same shift in the "a". I assume that it does indeed reflect the pronunciation, in English, of people from that part of the world. I doubt, however, if anyone would have a meltdown if one continued to use the "a" as in "hat".

[kwoldtimer]

[QUOTE=esquire;8510758]Yeah, I've never heard of anyone being corrected by an actual Pakistani person to pronounce it with an 'o' sound, i.e. pock vs. pack.

It never occurred to me that there was anything suspect about saying pack-istan, but I guess some innocuous words/pronunciations are taken down as collateral damage by something way more incendiary or offensive, much like how no one says 'niggardly' anymore unless they're trying to instigate something.[/QUOTE]

Say what? It's hardly on my daily list, but I've used it from time to time.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by SignalHillHiker

Definitely bae-gill. Community mercilessly made fun of Britta for saying bah-gill.

In Ontario, the first syllable of bagel (long "a") starts shifting to "bag" (rhymes with sag) when you get about 100 kilometers outside Toronto, especially heading into Eastern Ontario. It makes me cringe.

I have a niece (K-W) who claims to hear no difference between the two pronunciations. She's a lost cause, however, as her own pronunciation is closer to "begel" to my ear.

[esquire]

[QUOTE=kwoldtimer;8511220]

Originally Posted by esquire

Yeah, I've never heard of anyone being corrected by an actual Pakistani person to pronounce it with an 'o' sound, i.e. pock vs. pack.

It never occurred to me that there was anything suspect about saying pack-istan, but I guess some innocuous words/pronunciations are taken down as collateral damage by something way more incendiary or offensive, much like how no one says 'niggardly' anymore unless they're trying to instigate something.[/QUOTE]

Say what? It's hardly on my daily list, but I've used it from time to time.

I'm not saying it has totally disappeared from use, but it is, in my experience, a lot less common.

I think it's a bit of a generational change... I wouldn't bat an eye at a 75 year old person saying it, but it would be extremely unusual to hear a 25 year old person say it.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by esquire

^ Hyundai is similar, as the 'y' disappears from the English pronunciation. "hun-day" (or "hun-dye") instead of "hyeon-day"

And to Andy6's point, that change with the Kant example must have happened fast, because I took a couple of undergrad philosophy courses in the late 90s and it was cont all the way, I don't recall hearing can't at all.

Up until about a year ago, I thought "Hyundai" was pronounce Hyoon-die. No idea where I came up with that.

[Capsicum]

Originally Posted by CivicBlues

Another interesting tidbit I picked up in recent news is how Huawei and Huang is pronounced by white news casters as Wah-Way and Wang respectively. As if they can't pronounce the H-w sound. For Asian language speakers it's always been Hwa-Way and H-wang

But lots of English speakers (though it often sounds old-fashioned to some, or sometimes folksy like Hank from King of the Hill) make a H-w sound when they say things like "What" or "Why" so it sounds like "Hwwwhat" and Hwwhy".

Originally Posted by rousseau

Correction: Chinese speakers pronounce it the right way, not "Asian-language" speakers per se, who can't be expected to pronounce languages foreign to them properly without any training. Save for Japanese, which is easy.

After being back in Canada for so long I've stopped trying to maintain Chinese pronunciations for some things. I no longer wince at "tofu" with a hard T (should actually be a D sound), and even say it like that myself now. I've started saying "Zess-shwan" for "Szechuan" instead of the Chinese "Si-chwan" because people tend to know the former better. I'll even say "taichee" for "tai chi" instead of the Chinese "taijee."

But "Beijing" will always have a hard J sound, as the French J sounds alien to me. I think it's invariably changing in the media as well, what with it being the capital city of our new overlords.

At the same time, in English "Taipei" has a P sound, and in Chinese it is pronounced with a B, and never the twain shall meet. People who've lived in Taiwan and use the B when speaking English ("Taibei") are pretentious twats.

People still use Peking instead of Beijing for phrases like Peking duck or Pekingnese (the breed of dog).

What about Chinese-origin words like bok choy (the Chinese cabbage) or chow mein (the noodles), dim sum, feng shui, kung fu etc. I think they're pretty much pronounced in the Anglicized way now after being in the English vocabulary for generations, and few expect people to say it the way a Mandarin or Cantonese speaker does.