Atlantic Canada airport thread

[Good2go]

Originally Posted by Good2go

Times & Transcript is reporting that the Kalitta Air 747 clipped a snow bank with one engine at the Moncton airport Monday evening. They have to send a special crew here to fly it out.

Global has pictures and their story estimates damages between $1.5-2.0 million.

https://globalnews.ca/news/5046961/damage-landing-moncton-airport/

[MonctonRad]

Atlantic Canadian airports have not been very friendly to B747 air freighters recently.......

And in other news, flights to Europe from Halifax and St. John's have been cancelled because the UK, France and Germany have closed their airspace to B737 Max aircraft in light of the recent air crashes.

Frustrating, but understandable. There's definitely something fishy going on with this airframe. There are just too many superficial similarities between the Ethiopian and Indonesian crashes. Caution is definitely necessary here......

[Taeolas]

I would expect that there should normally be a big enough buffer between where the snow banks are and where the planes taxi, that even if a pilot weaved a little, they still wouldn't hit a bank. I'm sure there's an investigation on going, and Moncton Airport is probably going to get a wrist slap for not clearing snow properly.

As for the 737MAX, it feels like there's a lot of FAA pressure on Canada to not follow the example of the rest of the world. Probably because it would crimp US airline's that duck into Canadian airspace on their regular routes. Mexico is likely under similar (but not as much) pressure. I'm not following it particularly closely; but I suspect the plane is going to be grounded world wide by the end of the week regardless.

[cliff2121]

Originally Posted by Blue Blazer

Really hope so, I use that flight and I would hate to have to drive and spend more time in Moncton just to be able to get to Toronto early AM. wont be much sense with an airport expansion if they get rid of this flight

Saint John will still be keeping its early morning YYZ flight, which leaves around 5 a.m. and is still on a Q400...

[J81]

The problem i have with the whole MAX thing is that most people who are making the most noise on social media know nothing about airplanes and have mever read an accident report in their life. Look at the two situations involving this aircraft and where they took place. Indonesia has a less the stellar record and the same goes for the continent of Africa.

I read a lot of accident reports and have read the report of the Lion Air crash in Indonesia. The airplane should never have left the ground. It wasnt airworthy. There were discrepancies between two indicators that should always be the exact same. The pilots took off anyway and the rest is history.

The case in Ethiopia has few details other then it was the same type of aircraft. The copilot reportedly had just 200hrs experience. Basically brand new right out of flight school.

This is just a knee jerk reaction to an unfortunate set of circumstances without any hard evidence of a real problem. Its a common theme in the transportation world.

[magee_b]

Originally Posted by J81

The problem i have with the whole MAX thing is that most people who are making the most noise on social media know nothing about airplanes and have mever read an accident report in their life. Look at the two situations involving this aircraft and where they took place. Indonesia has a less the stellar record and the same goes for the continent of Africa.

Except Ethiopian DOES have a pretty stellar record, which is why there's all kinds of noise about it - Also, sadly because a lot of nationalities were on board that flight. It's true there's lots of arm chair commentators who know very little about aircraft operations making lots of noise on social media... However, there's been genuine concern amongst pilots, aviation authorities, and airlines too... As someone who flies quite regularly (and have been on the AC & Ethiopian Max 8 fleet), I'm fine to see them grounded until Boeing and the FAA get their act together with regards to a software update (if it turns out that the ET crash was similar to Lion Air) or until they can uncover which compounding set of issues led to the crash. The fact that there is an update in the works that has been delayed for some time doesn't shine well on Boeing or the US authorities.

The 787 Dreamliner fleet was grounded for 3 months in 2013 due to battery & electrical issues - I think this warrants similar action.

[J81]

Ethiopian does have a good record compared to most airlines in Africa but as a whole over the course of its history it has not. Definitely in recent years they have made improvements. However, a first officer with just 200hrs total time in the cockpit of such a complex aircraft i have a problem with.

Its interesting that the Ethiopian authorities sent the recorders to France where they dont have the capability to recover the data as the software is so new. Not sending it to the US will just delay the findings of actual cause.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by J81

Its interesting that the Ethiopian authorities sent the recorders to France where they dont have the capability to recover the data as the software is so new. Not sending it to the US will just delay the findings of actual cause.

US built plane. With Trump in office, they're likely worried about a cover-up. They probably wanted an impartial investigator.

I believe the recorders are going to go to Norway eventually (of all places).

EDIT - Apparently the black boxes are to be examined in Paris after all.........

[Sunnybrae]

Well, with around 350 737 max aircraft built out there, at least it isn't a huge impact on airlines yet. Imagine if it was the 737NG with over 7000 built. Maybe the evidence isn't there for a systemic problem with the software on the max but are we willing to take the chance? It is the responsibility of regulators to practice there due diligence when faced with a situation that shares some commonality with two accidents. I know personally, if it was my wife and child boarding a 737 max, I wouldn't take the chance. Yes I know your more likely to be injured in the cab ride to the airport but why add even more risk? As with most things, profits and money seem to enter the picture and yes, Boeing and airlines will be impacted in the wallet but really, what is more important, safety or money at this point?

[MonctonRad]

Agree completely.

There is just (superficially) too much commonality between the two incidents - new aircraft, both 737 MAX, suffering significant control problems immediately on takeoff. Given what we know about the modifications to the airframe increasing the risk of stall, and the necessity of a software patch to correct for this, I think extreme prudence is necessary. This grounding of the aircraft is entirely appropriate.

[HanSoloCup]

The 737 Max differs from previous 737's in that it uses larger engines, further forward and further up which helps with fuel economy but throws the centre of gravity off making the planes nose want to pitch up and stall. Sensors and software were installed to keep the plane from doing this, the problem is the forgot to tell the pilots about this, less experienced pilots are not ready nor know how to handle the situation properly. Less experienced pilots outside of the Western Europe and North America would have a harder time adjusting. And yes France can read the Data recorders. https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/boeing-737-business-impact-1.5054535

[J81]

The MCAS system is not new. It has been used on the A320 series for nearly 30 years. There were teething problems in the beginning for Airbus also. But it was due to a pilots lack of familiarity ( ie. training ). Anytime you increase the level of automation you also have to make sure that pilots know how the system works and how to shut it off if things are not happening the way you want it to. I think what youre going to see come out of these accidents is that the pilots were not familiar with this system and how to turn it off. Most accidents are a combination of factors and these accidents are no different. However, the airframe itself is not the issue. I myself would not have a problem getting on any MAX flown by AC or Westjet because i know the training is excellent. I know there are pilots that fly the MAX and dont care for the system and would like to see some changes made to it. There others that have no problem with it at all.
I do however hope they can retrieve the data from the recorders but they look incredibly mangled.

[Taeolas]

I'm gathering this from a discussion on another (non-aviation) board, so take it with a grain of salt.

But from what I'm understanding, part of the problem (among many parts and many problems) is that Boeing pushed the 737MAX out as a "trivial upgrade" to the regular 737 line, implying that existing 737 pilots would need minimal to no retraining on the new plane (so marketing could sell it to airlines with the perks that they wouldn't need to retrain pilots). Thus pilots would be flying MAX's possibly without the knowledge or familiarity of using the MCAS system and how and when to turn it off.

[J81]

Originally Posted by Taeolas

I'm gathering this from a discussion on another (non-aviation) board, so take it with a grain of salt.

But from what I'm understanding, part of the problem (among many parts and many problems) is that Boeing pushed the 737MAX out as a "trivial upgrade" to the regular 737 line, implying that existing 737 pilots would need minimal to no retraining on the new plane (so marketing could sell it to airlines with the perks that they wouldn't need to retrain pilots). Thus pilots would be flying MAX's possibly without the knowledge or familiarity of using the MCAS system and how and when to turn it off.

You are correct! One selling point of the MAX was that a pilot who got his 737 type rating on the 737 thirty years ago on a -300 or -400 model would not need to be recertified to fly the MAX. Only one rating is needed to cover the entire line of 737 models. That is utterly ridiculous as the cockpit and systems of those early 737 models and the new MAX models are completely different, aside from the standard controls of course. So yes Boeing and the FAA sort of screwed the pooch on this one. But they most likely didnt forsee there ever being a problem as the system has been in use for years on other aircraft.

I follow a great number of pilots on social media and their commentary is refreshing compared to the sensationalist drivel in the news.

“My 2 cents on the MAX. In this case, there isn’t necessarily a problem with the jet itself, the issue lies with the understanding of the systems and how to manage a non-normal directly related to the system in question.” Quote from a former 737 pilot who now flies the 747.

https://www.foxnews.com/us/hero-pilot-wh...ning-in-wake-of-ethiopian-airlines-crash

Theres Sullys view on the whole thing. Hard to disagree with him.

[Sunnybrae]

I do find this part of Captain Sullenbergers comments interesting.

"We do not yet know what caused the tragic crash of Ethiopian 302 that sadly claimed the lives of all passengers and crew, though there are many similarities between this flight and Lion Air 610, in which the design of the Boeing 737 MAX 8 is a factor. It has been obvious since the Lion Air crash that a redesign of the 737 MAX 8 has been urgently needed, yet has still not been done, and the announced proposed fixes do not go far enough."

I'm sure pilots in North America are well trained. Yet, pilot error accidents still happen here. We are human after all.

The FAA/DOT are stuck between a rock and a hard place. I'm sure the pressure is being applied. Kinda reminds me of the movie Crimson Tide when Captain Ramsey played by my favorite actor Gene Hackman and Commander Hunter played by Denzel Washington disagree about launching nukes.

Ramsey: You're presuming that we have other submarines out there ready to launch. But as captain, I must assume that our submarines could have been taken out by other Akulas. We can play these games all night, Mr. Hunter, but I don't have the luxury of your presumptions.
Hunter: Sir...
Ramsey: Mr. Hunter, we have rules that are not open to interpretation, personal intuition, gut feelings, hairs on the back of your neck, little devils or angels sitting on your shoulders.
Hunter: Captain...
Ramsey: We're all very well aware of what our orders are and what those orders mean. They come down from our Commander-in-Chief. They contain no ambiguity.
Hunter: Captain, sir...
Ramsey: Mr. Hunter, I've made the decision. I'm captain of this boat. Now shut the f*** up! Damn.

[Blue Blazer]

Originally Posted by cliff2121

Saint John will still be keeping its early morning YYZ flight, which leaves around 5 a.m. and is still on a Q400...

only thing about driving from Fredericton to saint john early morning like that is the fog in the early mornings. Or I wouldn't mind. Just so much easier if Fredericton would keep this route. plus the airport in Saint john is in the middle of nowhere. adds an extra 20 mins on the trip

[Franco401]

Originally Posted by Blue Blazer

only thing about driving from Fredericton to saint john early morning like that is the fog in the early mornings. Or I wouldn't mind. Just so much easier if Fredericton would keep this route. plus the airport in Saint john is in the middle of nowhere. adds an extra 20 mins on the trip

Saint John has the most poorly located airport imaginable. From Grand Bay or parts of Lancaster, it's faster to drive to YFC. Imagine if it had stayed in Millidgeville.

[trev71]

just got an email stating that WestJet begins early morning flights to Toronto at 6am this summer from YFC. This might pick up and make Air Canada wake up and bring back their early morning flights

this is their new flight schedule sorry I could not cut and paste the whole email
Fredericton to Toronto Departure 600
Toronto to Fredericton Departure 1225
Fredericton to Toronto Departure 1610
Toronto to Fredericton Departure 1955

[Bishop2047]

https://yfcfredericton.ca/Latest-News/schedule-update-westjet/

Here is the announcement for Fredericton

[D3nZ]

Originally Posted by Bishop2047

https://yfcfredericton.ca/Latest-News/schedule-update-westjet/

Here is the announcement for Fredericton

For someone moving back to Fredericton next week and who always flew in the morning, that is great news.

Bravo to WestJet for seeing an opportunity.