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View Poll Results: What should be given priority for LRT Stage 3?
Rural Rail 3 2.29%
Barrhaven 14 10.69%
South East 0 0%
Kanata 32 24.43%
Gatineau 19 14.50%
Orleans 0 0%
Bank St Subway 37 28.24%
Montreal Road 23 17.56%
Other 3 2.29%
Voters: 131. You may not vote on this poll

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  #161  
Old Posted Mar 11, 2019, 7:47 PM
OCCheetos OCCheetos is offline
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True, it isn't the worst. But it depends on how much it would cost to rehab the bridge, and create a connection on the Gatineau side of the river. And how much use it would actually get relative to other options. I also think the cost of not just rehabbing it, but the higher levels of on-going maintenance needed for a 100+ year old bridge, are going to be a lot higher than was has been quoted when push comes to shove.
Well it's already been estimated to cost between $40 million (by MOOSE) and $200 million (by the City) to rehab the bridge for passenger service. Not bad compared to a new bridge and corridor.

They're spending $1.3 million for minor rehab work this year, and assuming the initial full rehab work is done well, I don't see it being any more costly than maintaining any other rail bridge. It may be old, but it hasn't seen much use in the last few decades, although...

...Honest question, what would have been worse for the bridge? Sitting unmaintained for 15 years or being used regularly (and maintained regularly) for 15 years instead?
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  #162  
Old Posted Mar 11, 2019, 8:13 PM
JohnnyRenton JohnnyRenton is offline
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Originally Posted by OCCheetos View Post
Well it's already been estimated to cost between $40 million (by MOOSE) and $200 million (by the City) to rehab the bridge for passenger service. Not bad compared to a new bridge and corridor.

They're spending $1.3 million for minor rehab work this year, and assuming the initial full rehab work is done well, I don't see it being any more costly than maintaining any other rail bridge. It may be old, but it hasn't seen much use in the last few decades, although...

...Honest question, what would have been worse for the bridge? Sitting unmaintained for 15 years or being used regularly (and maintained regularly) for 15 years instead?
I think when the idea of using the bridge was tossed around it was somewhere in the range of $30-50 million, according to the city. Like many aspects of their original LRT ideas, the cost was quite a ways away from reality. And once you include the cost of the corridor on the Gatineau side, nd any other unforeseen costs, it could easily reach $300 million. I would argue that at that price, it isn't worth it. There are other, better alternatives when you start getting into that range.

As far as your question goes, I would like to know that answer too. I would also be curious to know how much it would cost to just turn into a mutli-purpose path.
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  #163  
Old Posted Mar 11, 2019, 8:25 PM
OCCheetos OCCheetos is offline
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And once you include the cost of the corridor on the Gatineau side, nd any other unforeseen costs, it could easily reach $300 million.
For what? The corridors are already there. Heck, so is the track (albeit old, rusty, and jointed, but that's still not going to cost a few hundred million).

Assuming you went for minimal stations on the Gatineau side, the whole thing (excluding the bridge rehab) would cost like $10 million tops. That's based on the cost of the original pilot as well as the additional upgrades that have taken place over the years.
Remember, all that needs to be done beyond the bridge is replace/weld some track, and built another asphalt box somewhere (if you wanted to be a cheap as possible anyway).

Other possible costs:
Grade separation of the Voyageurs pathway: few hundred thousand
Acquisition of land: Depends on who owns the corridors, but since it's probably the City of Gatineau I'm sure they could work something out
Additional Vehicle: ~$12 million if it's a singe FLIRT
Am I missing anything?

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I would argue that at that price, it isn't worth it. There are other, better alternatives when you start getting into that range.
Such as?
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  #164  
Old Posted Mar 11, 2019, 9:32 PM
JohnnyRenton JohnnyRenton is offline
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Originally Posted by OCCheetos View Post
For what? The corridors are already there. Heck, so is the track (albeit old, rusty, and jointed, but that's still not going to cost a few hundred million).

Assuming you went for minimal stations on the Gatineau side, the whole thing (excluding the bridge rehab) would cost like $10 million tops. That's based on the cost of the original pilot as well as the additional upgrades that have taken place over the years.
Remember, all that needs to be done beyond the bridge is replace/weld some track, and built another asphalt box somewhere (if you wanted to be a cheap as possible anyway).

Other possible costs:
Grade separation of the Voyageurs pathway: few hundred thousand
Acquisition of land: Depends on who owns the corridors, but since it's probably the City of Gatineau I'm sure they could work something out
Additional Vehicle: ~$12 million if it's a singe FLIRT
Am I missing anything?
And this is where the details matter.

So lets say they go with the cheapest possible plan, which is to have it terminate at the intersection of Tache and Montcalm. That is going to be about a 1.5km section of track which will need to be completely rehabbed. And that does save money on stations, because the only place one makes sense is at the end of the line. So that is some good cost savings.

And, if you happen to work at Terrases de la Chauderie, then that one station is pretty handy (if your approaching Bayview from the right direction). But the line stops short of the major employment area. So you either do two things. One, you do nothing, which leaves people with a not insignificant walk, depending on where exactly in the Portage complex they need to go. Or, they extend the track another three blocks to bring people closer, which obviously would not be cheap.

That does bring up a third option, which is run the line straight to Tache and then use the SLR line for service into Gatineau. Of course, this means changing train technologies on the T-Line so that those trains can cross the bridge, or operating a shuttle line with a third technology for Ottawa.

A budget line is going to give budget results. And even if you did say that they could do a one station extension, plus bridge rehabilitation, and get an additional train for $220 million, is that even worth it for a service that stops just at the edge of where people work? Again, I would argue, that it isn't.

You are going to get what you pay for, and if they try to do the line on a budget, it is going to give budget results.

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Originally Posted by OCCheetos View Post
Such as?
There isn't an easy way to answer that without a lot of detail, explanation, and pictures. So I will return to that when I have more time.
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  #165  
Old Posted Mar 11, 2019, 9:56 PM
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Originally Posted by OCCheetos View Post
Such as?
The Portage Bridge and the Alexandra Bridge.

The Portage Bridge Is already heavily used by buses so adding tracks for a branch of the SLR would have minimal impact. As I previously mentioned they could then cut under the Garden of Provinces to build a station at Sparks and Lyon (to allow transfers at Lyon station if needed, where many will have already alighted, this not afftecting the capacity demands). Contra flow, trains could continue into Hull, allowing people to commute from Ottawa to Hull.

There is already a proposal for the SLR to use the Alexandra Bridge, so I won’t go into those details.
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  #166  
Old Posted Mar 12, 2019, 5:32 AM
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Originally Posted by OCCheetos View Post
...Honest question, what would have been worse for the bridge? Sitting unmaintained for 15 years or being used regularly (and maintained regularly) for 15 years instead?
I would say regular use and well maintained would have been better for the bridge. It's worth mentioning that the passenger trains used today (and 20 years ago) on Trilllium are be much shorter and lighter than the freight trains of the 19th and 20th centuries. A new transit service might have a higher frequency, but we can't know that for sure; back in Ottawa-Hull's industrial peak, trains were the main form of transportation and it carried both trains between Ottawa and Montreal while others that looped around Hull via the Alexandra and PoW.

I do hope Ottawa and Gatineau can complete an inter-provincial transit plan soon in order to include station(s) as part of the Zibi project before it's too far along.
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  #167  
Old Posted Mar 12, 2019, 1:32 PM
Uhuniau Uhuniau is online now
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Originally Posted by JohnnyRenton View Post
Going back to what I originally said, if you are coming from the west or south, then Bayview is no a bad option to cross the river (although how far into Gatineau it would go is another factor in how effective it would be as a service). If you are coming from the east, your not going to take the O-Train all the way to Bayview, then transfer, then back track into central Gatineau.
Why not? What's the disadvantage as compared to any other mode of transportation? (NB, NOT as compared to any other possible transit configuration.)

Quote:
And for people coming from Gatineau, it wouldn't make sense to take a bus, or LRT, to central Gatineau, transfer to the O-Train to get to Bayview, and then transfer once more.
Why are you assuming the rail link would be the only transit connection across the river?
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  #168  
Old Posted Mar 12, 2019, 1:34 PM
Uhuniau Uhuniau is online now
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As far as your question goes, I would like to know that answer too. I would also be curious to know how much it would cost to just turn into a mutli-purpose path.
There's the dollar cost, and the opportunity cost: once a piece of rail infrastructure is turned into something "recreational", politically it can never, ever, ever be reverted to rail use.

Add recreational use as part of a transit rehabilitation, sure, but rec-only? nope nope nope.
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  #169  
Old Posted Mar 17, 2019, 5:30 PM
JohnnyRenton JohnnyRenton is offline
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Going back to what @OCCheetos asked, I do have an alternative plan for how to deal with interprovincial transit (versus sending an LRT across the POW bridge). But to get there, lets first look at what the LRT network in Ottawa will look like after phase 2, what I think would be a wise investment for a third phase, and then the interprovincial question.

So lets start with Ottawa post phase 2...




There is no legend on the map but I am sure you can figure out that the magenta lines are the Transitway lines, red is the C-Line, and Green is the T-Line. The LRT lines are also weighted differently based on whether they are double or single track operations. The Rapidbus corridor has also been included since there will be a regional focus once I talk about interprovincial connections.

Next up is what I think should be done for phase 3.



Lets start with the C-Line. There should be two extensions, one to Terry Fox, and one to Fallowfield. There are lots of reasons I think this makes sense, a key one being that bringing LRT even to the edge of these satellite suburbs will make transit more attractive because it will reduce the time people spend on the bus before getting to the station. Also, it has operational efficiencies since you can keep buses concentrated in the suburbs, as opposed to having them do a run through the greenbelt, every trip that they do. We know that Moodie to Terry Fox is estimated at $710 million, and if the city can take advantage of savings when grade separation is done for the rail lines, and keeps station designs simple for all but Fallowfield, it could probably do that line for around $1 billion.

Next up is the T-Line, which as you can see is much shorter now. The reason being is that the SE Transitway would be converted to LRT, and everything currently on the T-Line from Walkley south now joins into the new connector. This section could be built without electrification and instead use battery EMU's for operation. There could be sizable cost savings from not having to electrify the SET and former southern T-Line, and it could be used to test and perfect the tech so that extensions of the C-Line, where frequencies are going to be lower than existing sections, could adopt this tech and thus be built at a lower cost. And because they are not DMUs, they can use the tunnel. Because this modified line feeds into the eastern end of the downtown section, it utilizes capacity of the tunnel in a very efficient way. Total cost of the SET conversion, where the only engineering work required is creating an interline connection at Hurdman (the rest is very straight forward), and fixing the rest of the southern T-Line so that automated systems can be used, around $600 million.

As for the remaining T-Line, I wouldn't do anything to it (unless there was some extra money in which case you could continue to double track a few more sections).

There would also be a sizable investment into a Baseline/Heron/Walkley BRT. For this a budget of $200 million could be set, and the goal would be to find the best way to spend that to increase speed and reliability of service along that corridor. I know some will say there are too many stops on that line. I wasn't too concerned about the finer points of stop location, I just picked points at major intersections and added in some so that distances between stops were not too large. Express and local services could be operated so not all buses need to make all stops.

There is one wildcard for the region, and that is the Gatineau SLR proposal. A few things about it. One, if it is built, I am suspecting that the first section to be built will be the Gatineau portion. The crossings will be a complicated negotiation between Gatineau, Ottawa and the NCC. Using Alexandria Bridge is the correct choice from a planning point of view, but could be a very large project. And since the city owns the Prince of Wales bridge, their plan to use that is just a bit of fanciful line drawing at the moment.

So lets add the Gatineau only portion of their SLR to the map.



Some might be able to see where I am going this, but lets walk through it. For transit on the Gatineau side it needs to do two things, it has to get as many people to the central Gatineau employment locations as possible, and needs to bring people into the CBD and Rideau/Byward market areas, so that it serves the two key employment areas in Ottawa (just as the STO buses do today).

For Ottawa, there needs to be an effective way for commuters from the east, and the west, to get across the river to the central Gatineau employment area (others might work outside that area but those people are going to marginal). For the west, part of the appeal of the POW bridge is that it is served by Bayview, where two lines meet, and it can be used in the plan below as well. From the east, Rideau can become the primary interchange point, though, as you will see, commuters could also get off at Lyon or Parliament and transfer after a 2 block walk.

The solution below assumes that the NCC is willing to be a bit more progressive than its current thinking. So that is something to keep in mind as I recognize that there would need to be some perspective changes for a plan like this to be implemented.



By running the SLR across Portage and Alexandria, you allow it to serve all of the major, downtown employment areas on both sides of the river. And it can operate in both directions to create different types of service for its riders (as is the case now). And yes, this line does run down Wellington. I know many might think this could never happen, but I will get back to that point shortly. Below is a map which is rather basic, as it doesn't have every stop on it, but gives an idea of how services could be structured on both the C-Line and the combined LRT/SLR network.



Now, it also gives an opportunity for Ottawa to finally do something useful with the T-Line (which I shortened in the previous stage 3 projects). A connector can be built from Bayview to the Portage/Wellington intersection, in the Parkway/Wellington right of way. The roads are large enough that an LRT could easily be put into the median without any major disruption to traffic. The right of ways could even be grass covered instead of concrete to add extra run off protection, and to simply make it look a lot nicer.

This has two advantages for the Ottawa. One, it could allow the T-Line to run directly downtown, and also across the river to Gatineau. And two, because the LRT/SLR lines can host a multiplicity of routes, a shuttle services could be run from Bayview to Gatineau during busy times to ensure extra capacity for commuters, if it was needed. The same could be done from Rideau as well, but the key point is that this network would provide the flexibility to create exactly the right kind of service both sides need.

The one obvious change in all that is that the T-Line would have to abandon its DMUs. This isn't a bad thing. There would be some cost to changing stations to accommodate low floor LRVs, but this is also why investments should be kept to a bare minimum at the moment, so that there is ultimately less to conversion cost involved. At some point in time it could be double tracked, or it could continue to be upgraded incrementally. If the line could at least get 7.5 minute frequencies, this would be a good start to an expanded line. As far as the southern terminus of the line goes, it could in theory end at a Mooney's Bay stop that meets up with the C-Line, but since the LRVs may well still use a facility in the Walkley yard, there is no harm in having Walkley be the southern end.

A few other things:
- This doesn't include a Carling or Montreal Rd LRT. But it does lay the groundwork for those options.
- The shared LRT loop track would serve the War Museum, Parliament Hill, The National Art Gallery, The Museum of Civilization, and other smaller attractions. This could be a great opportunity for a service to be created that would make it easy for tourists to get to these locations, or even just creating electronic signage at downtown locations making it easy for visitors to take the LRT to get to the destination of their choice.
- The Alexandria Bridge would not be a simple crossing to adapt to LRT. And it will be expensive. But it is necessary to create a proper network, so like the downtown tunnel, that will be one of those costs that just needs to be undertaken.
- The exact route of the surface LRT from Rideau Station to the entrance of the Alexandria bridge could be debated. In this case I have it running up Dalhousie, then across St Patrick/Murray. It could also run down Sussex, which in a way makes more sense, but also adds the complication of security concerns from the US Embassy. It could also run along the old right of way that runs at the edge of Majors Hill Park. That would require a tunnel to get it from that right of way to Wellington though, which would add to the cost of the project.
- This overall plan does make extensive use of Battery EMUs. This is to help reduce the cost versus electrification, to speed construction timelines, and because eliminating overhead wires could make it easier to sell adding LRTs to important streets, like Wellington. Given the rapid evolution of battery tech, this is now becoming a viable option, especially if you think about projects that are starting out 5, 10 or 15 years from now.
- The T-Line needs to be tied into urban development. If it isn't going to help fuel this kind of development along its corridor, then the value of the line is really diminished.
- You can also see the convergence of lines at Mooney's Bay. The potential for this area to be redeveloped, serve as a transit hub, and perhaps have a VIA station added, should be explored. It would be a massive redevelopment project, which would make Lebreton look small in comparison, so it would take a lot of time and effort to get it right.

I know lots of people will disagree with this plan, in part because everyone likes their own plans best. But if you presume that dealing with interprovincial transit needs is the next major task, after extending the C-Line to a natural first generation extent, then this does make a lot of sense.
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  #170  
Old Posted Mar 17, 2019, 7:06 PM
OCCheetos OCCheetos is offline
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I won't quote the entire post because it's really long, but first of all those are some really nice maps (what did you make them with?)

If your (last) plan involves ditching DMUs on the Trillium Line, then why not also interline it south of Mooney's) Maybe interlining it just to the airport instead of Riverside South.

Beyond that, I think it's a great network concept, the question just ends up becoming how feasible it is to implement.
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  #171  
Old Posted Mar 17, 2019, 8:15 PM
JohnnyRenton JohnnyRenton is offline
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Originally Posted by OCCheetos View Post
I won't quote the entire post because it's really long, but first of all those are some really nice maps (what did you make them with?)

If your (last) plan involves ditching DMUs on the Trillium Line, then why not also interline it south of Mooney's) Maybe interlining it just to the airport instead of Riverside South.

Beyond that, I think it's a great network concept, the question just ends up becoming how feasible it is to implement.
I used Mapbox for these maps, mostly because I wanted to play around with the platform and see how effective it was for custom zoomable maps, and Google Earth to create the data sets. If I were to do it again, I would use Ortellius and skip trying to make dynamic maps (it probably wouldn't take too long to redo them once I have all the data sets that I need) which would give much better results.
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  #172  
Old Posted Mar 18, 2019, 2:13 AM
Truenorth00 Truenorth00 is online now
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Great maps! Amazing work.

The only thing I will add is that if the Confederation Line gets to Fallowfield, it makes a lot of sense to extend till at least Strandherd and possibly even Barrhaven Centre. The Transitway is already there. It's grade-separated till Strandherd anyway. And there's a preserved ROW beyond Strandherd that probably would be easy and cheap to cut and cover as a terminus station.

Going to Strandherd or beyond would probably allow for some solid improvements in bus service in Barrhaven, since they wouldn't have to trundle to Barrhaven to terminate. Also, today's big box plaza's offer at least some opportunity for intensification. Those plots are cheap to redevelop.
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  #173  
Old Posted Mar 18, 2019, 3:38 AM
JohnnyRenton JohnnyRenton is offline
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Originally Posted by Truenorth00 View Post
Great maps! Amazing work.

The only thing I will add is that if the Confederation Line gets to Fallowfield, it makes a lot of sense to extend till at least Strandherd and possibly even Barrhaven Centre. The Transitway is already there. It's grade-separated till Strandherd anyway. And there's a preserved ROW beyond Strandherd that probably would be easy and cheap to cut and cover as a terminus station.

Going to Strandherd or beyond would probably allow for some solid improvements in bus service in Barrhaven, since they wouldn't have to trundle to Barrhaven to terminate. Also, today's big box plaza's offer at least some opportunity for intensification. Those plots are cheap to redevelop.
I totally agree. Outside of the grade separation projects, which can be done relatively cheaply when VIA/the Feds embark on rail separation in Ottawa, the Transitway would be a relatively straight forward conversion.

Ultimately there are lots of projects that you could make a case for. The primary reason I picked the ones I did is because they are what is needed to create the backbone of a regional transit network, and were within a totally arbitrary budget that I set for myself. Once the core elements are in place, then it becomes a lot easier to expand with smaller scale projects (like converting the rest of the Barrhaven Transitway). While Ottawa might be at a disadvantage in some ways because it doesn't have a legacy, industrial era rail and transit network to expand on (hence the need for the massive investments right now), it also has the advantage of being able to think about a transit network differently. As some on the forum have said, good transit needs to effectively serve many parts of the city. and in some ways, and quite by accident, Ottawa/Gatineau is actually laid out in a way that it can do that. It just takes some logical and creative thinking.
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  #174  
Old Posted Mar 18, 2019, 12:42 PM
JohnnyRenton JohnnyRenton is offline
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Originally Posted by OCCheetos View Post
If your (last) plan involves ditching DMUs on the Trillium Line, then why not also interline it south of Mooney's) Maybe interlining it just to the airport instead of Riverside South.
Forgot to answer this when I originally responded. The reason for not interlining to the T-Line was to avoid a non-automated LRV technology using the C-Line. As soon as you start mixing technologies, or speed capabilities (like non HSR trains on an HSL), you immediately make the operation less efficient. This might not be a big deal if the line is at a fraction of capacity but the C-Line will probably be at 50-60% capacity a week after opening day of phase 2 (that might not seem high, but consider that would be after just 6 years of operation). The line needs to be one hundred percent automated if it wants to maximize its capacity and to allow its reach to be extended as much as possible.

That said, maybe there is a way to make it work that I am missing. I wouldn't rank multiple connections to the airport as a high priority, but the more flexible a network can be the better. There might ultimately be an interesting, non-compromising solution out there.
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  #175  
Old Posted Mar 18, 2019, 2:04 PM
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Posted in another thread...

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Originally Posted by J.OT13 View Post
BREAKING NEWS: The Interprovincial (Alexandra) Bridge will be demolished within the next 5-10 years. New link will likely include rapid-transit component.

https://www.ledroit.com/actualites/gatin...dix-ans-73ec4a00ed7bc82f267eab92d675d0ee

In other news, NCC will take over all 5 road bridges.

https://www.ledroit.com/actualites/gatin...inciaux-3281225c586e93b75cb8aaf9dd000fcc
So as far as pushing interprovincial transit forward, and in a genuinely modern, useful, and efficient way, it looks like there might be an opportunity for that opening up....
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  #176  
Old Posted Mar 18, 2019, 3:51 PM
lrt's friend lrt's friend is offline
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Originally Posted by JohnnyRenton View Post
Posted in another thread...



So as far as pushing interprovincial transit forward, and in a genuinely modern, useful, and efficient way, it looks like there might be an opportunity for that opening up....
There goes a major historic landmark. This worries me.

Also, I still question Gatineau LRT with only one stop on the Ottawa side. We are going backwards to the type of service that existed more than 70 years ago. At that time, Hull residents couldn't wait to get rid of it. Ottawa's downtown has expanded a lot in those 70 years.
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  #177  
Old Posted Mar 18, 2019, 4:06 PM
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Originally Posted by lrt's friend View Post
There goes a major historic landmark. This worries me.

Also, I still question Gatineau LRT with only one stop on the Ottawa side. We are going backwards to the type of service that existed more than 70 years ago. At that time, Hull residents couldn't wait to get rid of it. Ottawa's downtown has expanded a lot in those 70 years.
I'm not sure how you get around that without some kind of overriding transit authority taking control. Jurisdictional issues and intercity/interprovincial politics are going to make it very difficult for either OC Transpo or STO to operate trains deeper into the territory across the river.
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  #178  
Old Posted Mar 18, 2019, 4:32 PM
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I'm not sure how you get around that without some kind of overriding transit authority taking control. Jurisdictional issues and intercity/interprovincial politics are going to make it very difficult for either OC Transpo or STO to operate trains deeper into the territory across the river.
Yes exactly, just like in any other dual-metropolis, sister cities type environments anywhere else in the world.
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  #179  
Old Posted Mar 18, 2019, 7:20 PM
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Why are people going about thinking that the LRT is going to replace all STO buses across the river? It isn't going to, in the slides the city procuded for the announcement they side it'd take 60% of the buses out of ottawa, not all. While for some it won't be that good, there are still options. Like for example route 200. Very pointless to force them to transfer onto the LRT no one who takes that bus would want to do that, and the same for the 18. The LRT currently is for Alymer and the Plateau, not the entire city, so going about making every one in the city transfer onto to get to ottawa is completely stupid, and the city isn't even suggesting it.
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  #180  
Old Posted Mar 19, 2019, 4:48 PM
Ottawaresident Ottawaresident is offline
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STO Buses? Does OCTranspo even have the authority over the STO?
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