Salt Lake City: Official Development News Thread - Part 5

[The ATX]

Originally Posted by Stenar

I read an article about San Antonio annexations a couple of years ago, and I thought I read that it annexed land in 8 counties. I must have misread.

That San Antonio has 7 Fortune 500 companies is just an argument for Salt Lake City annexing all of the county so we can be taken more seriously by corporations.

The crazy thing is that even though San Antonio has annexed a large area, they’re STILL annexing nearby communities.

Just an FYI as I see a lot of discussions about Texas cities annexing suburbs in various threads and forums.

The Texas Legislature effectively stopped Texas cities from annexing populated areas in 2017. The only areas annexed since then were grandfathered in under the old annexation laws. San Antonio and Austin as well as Dallas and Houston have done close to zero annexations since 2017 and cannot do so going forward.

[Stenar]

Originally Posted by The ATX

Just an FYI as I see a lot of discussions about Texas cities annexing suburbs in various threads and forums.

The Texas Legislature effectively stopped Texas cities from annexing populated areas in 2017. The only areas annexed since then were grandfathered in under the old annexation laws. San Antonio and Austin as well as Dallas and Houston have done close to zero annexations since 2017 and cannot do so going forward.

And yet there are articles about San Antonio annexing new areas in 2018.

[Stenar]

[QUOTE=Comrade;8501210]

Originally Posted by Stenar

CSA or MSA, it doesn't matter. San Antonio has an equally large CSA within 100 miles of itself. Salt Lake doesn't. The entire San Antonio-Austin region has more people than the state of Utah. That's why San Antonio is seen as a more serious candidate for the NFL than Salt Lake. We bring, at the most, 3 million people to the table with the entire state of Utah. San Antonio-Austin, a region much smaller in square miles than Utah, brings over 4 million people - and that doesn't even include other parts of Texas, which happens to be the second biggest state in the country.

You missed the point. That comment was about the fact that our CSA should be our MSA... not about the NFL.

[The ATX]

Originally Posted by Stenar

And yet there are articles about San Antonio annexing new areas in 2018.

Cities can annex unpopulated areas as part of a development agreement for a new subdivision in the ETJ. They can also annex a populated area if the residents in the area vote in favor of an annexation. But that is what killed annexations because very few people will vote for higher taxes when they are already enjoying city amenities. I would like to see links to the articles you are referencing just to see what was annexed.

[Comrade]

[QUOTE=Stenar;8501288]

Originally Posted by Comrade

You missed the point. That comment was about the fact that our CSA should be our MSA... not about the NFL.

lol the only reason you brought these numbers into the discussion was to state that San Antonio only gets buzz because they annexed to grow their CITY population. This is false. San Antonio gets buzz because they're an equal-ish metro to Salt Lake and within 100 miles of another metro that is Salt Lake's size - and combined larger than the state of Utah in terms of population.

San Antonio's city population has nothing to do with any of this discussion. If Salt Lake were to ever merge with Salt Lake County, and grow its city population to over one-million, it'd still get the same amount of buzz it does now.

Columbus has a population of 879,170 and no one is discussing putting a NFL team there and it's because its surrounding area isn't huge. It's the same with El Paso, whose population is 683,577.

[Stenar]

[QUOTE=Comrade;8501333]

Originally Posted by Stenar

lol the only reason you brought these numbers into the discussion was to state that San Antonio only gets buzz because they annexed to grow their CITY population. This is false. San Antonio gets buzz because they're an equal-ish metro to Salt Lake and within 100 miles of another metro that is Salt Lake's size - and combined larger than the state of Utah in terms of population.

San Antonio's city population has nothing to do with any of this discussion. If Salt Lake were to ever merge with Salt Lake County, and grow its city population to over one-million, it'd still get the same amount of buzz it does now.

Columbus has a population of 879,170 and no one is discussing putting a NFL team there and it's because its surrounding area isn't huge. It's the same with El Paso, whose population is 683,577.

Nobody talks about Columbus because it's a rust-belt town. There's not much going on in all of Ohio. Columbus is only 95 miles from Cincinnati, which is barely more than the distance between Austin and San Antonio. Also, Toledo is only 110 miles.

And yes, annexing areas to increase SLC's population would absolutely have a major impact on companies decisions to locate facilities.

[twig]

Stenar, how can you not understand this? Almost in no way is Salt Lake and San Antonio even remotely comparable. It just isn’t. Not for sports, not for company headquarters, not for nothing. Similar MSAs? Sure, but San Antonio is right next to another separate large city. Salt Lake is close to what? Denver and Las Vegas? Over 6-8 hours away from each. Give it a rest man and spare us the ignorance. Obviously there is no informing you.

[Old&New]

Would be cool:

[wrendog]

San Antonio is also close to another 500k MSA in Corpus Christi (2 hours away)

[Old&New]

I think Minneapolis St Paul would be a better point of comparison than San Antonio considering Salt Lake and the Twin Cities share a similar remoteness (Madison is 5 hours away and Chicago is 7). The Twin Cities’ MSA is made up of 16 counties and spans a large area of the state, including parts of Wisconsin, which I think is a bit of a stretch and perhaps is intended to inflate the numbers. Whereas if Salt Lake’s MSA were also to include population living within an hour and a half - two hours radius in all directions, our numbers would also look more impresssive. Yes, their large MSA (including parts of Wisconsin) has basically the same population as the entire state of Utah (3.1 million) (I mean we’ll see in 2020 if the current estimate is accurate; my guess is Utah’s population has been underestimated), but even if you were to subtract the population of everything Outside that 2 hour radius (Vernal, Moab, Monticello, Blanding, Fillmore, Cedar City, St George, and the Manti valley), that would still leave a large majority (2.6 million) of the population within Salt Lake’s MSA. Right now salt Lake’s MSA doesn’t even include Utah or Davis Counties, just salt lake and Tooele. Yes, we still have more to grow, but not much.

[bob rulz]

I don't understand this idea that large companies only look at city proper populations when deciding where to locate facilities. I think it's absurd to suggest that major corporations aren't capable of understanding metropolitan or urban area populations, or market sizes. They're not that dumb.

Originally Posted by Wasatch Wasteland

I don’t think we need any more channels for super specific topics. They die off anyways and get forgotten. Sports infrastructure is development, and the last few months there has been multiple gaps of a few days where hardly any development discussion is happening. I’m okay with (and I hope others are) okay with these conversations.

As far as the homeless goes, I think that that’s also a super relevant (albeit over discussed) topic, so I don’t believe it’s a bad thing to talk about. The greater issue with homelessness in America is its an issue that no one wants to talk about.

My point is that conversations are organic, and the discussions ebb and flow however they are supposed to. I don’t believe trying to dictate the exact topic of discussion for each thread and disavowing all else is productive, it inhibits the meaningful conversations that that approach is trying to promote.

People on this forum have tried to do or say that before. A lot of members who are actually really passionate and knowledgeable about super specific topics, a lot of whom hardly post much, get turned off when their contributions to the discussion are deemed “off topic” or “innapropriately placed” or something.

Also, as far as Denver goes, please don’t even say that name. I can already see the forum going downhill from here...

The problem is that what we're talking about really isn't development related. There is no even remotely realistic chatter about another pro sports team being located to Salt Lake City. It's really just all of us giving opinions about whether we think it would be possible, then arguing over population numbers of different metro areas. That's not development related at all. And when people who might want to talk about things and come into this thread and see 3 straight pages of people debating over whether we could support another pro sports team, that turns off all but a specific niche of people.

Fact is, we've had several posts scattered in here about development. I mentioned I saw people marking the sidewalk in front of Tower 8. Someone else asked about progress of Hardware Village. There's been some others. And they've all basically been ignored so we can keep debating opinions and semantics. Hell, we got super nice renderings of the CCH that we hadn't seen before, and it got what, like 3 or 4 responses and a joke about snowmen in the rendering? So that gets a handful of responses and no real discussion, but we can go on for 3 pages about MSA classifications and a completely theoretical pro sports team.

Like I said, Tower 8 and 151 State better get started soon or else this thread is going into the shitter again. I feel like there's a good reason why some of our best posters just don't come around anymore.

[bob rulz]

Originally Posted by Blah_Amazing

Does anyone have any progress updates on Hardware Village East and West?

These are the kinds of posts I want to see responses to, but because we're all sitting here complaining - for what feels like the 3,000th time - about how our MSA is classified, it got buried and ignored.

How long has it been since we've even had picture updates of projects? Who even does that anymore?

[Sight-Seer]

I thought I'd weigh in on the convention center hotel if I might. I like it. At least it isn't a box. I like the rounded look. It's different than most buildings in SL and will stand out in the skyline. I counted the stories and it looks like there are 27 in the rendering, counting the top thing. I read one article that said it would be 29 stories. One said 28. So there is some confusion. It's still a pretty big building. I wonder what the possibility is that the rendering is the real thing. It looks real. Like somebody went to more effort than just a conceptual drawing. The question I have is, is 700 rooms enough for the conventions Salt Lake wants to attract. The thing that always happens is the [fill in the blank] in a year or two is always too small. That's why they keep expanding the convention center itself. Once it's built it will be too late to make it bigger. It seems like Salt Lake leaders are always too conservative for everything and they're always wrong. Maybe since the CCH is relatively small they'll go ahead with the Regent Street hotel.

[FullCircle]

I also think the CCH is a decent design; don't love it don't hate it. Something I remember people talking about is that some conventions won't come to a city unless they have a CCH attached to their CC, and many want that hotel to have at least 1000 rooms. So our city/county/state leaders said we really need a CCH attached to the CC, but missed the 1000 room point, it seems. I wonder if that room count isn't as big a point as some people were making it out to be, or if we just missed the boat on it.

[Comrade]

[QUOTE=Stenar;8501374]

Originally Posted by Comrade

And yes, annexing areas to increase SLC's population would absolutely have a major impact on companies decisions to locate facilities.

Yeah, no it wouldn't. You're treating the relocation, or expansion, of a multi-billion dollar product like a NFL team as if it's being facilitated by a bunch of simpletons on a whim. Maybe that's how you perceive things but it's flat-out wrong.

[Comrade]

Originally Posted by FullCircle

I also think the CCH is a decent design; don't love it don't hate it. Something I remember people talking about is that some conventions won't come to a city unless they have a CCH attached to their CC, and many want that hotel to have at least 1000 rooms. So our city/county/state leaders said we really need a CCH attached to the CC, but missed the 1000 room point, it seems. I wonder if that room count isn't as big a point as some people were making it out to be, or if we just missed the boat on it.

This is my take. Though, I liked the original videoboards on the first design. I hope this updated version doesn't mean they've been removed.

[scottharding]

Originally Posted by Blah_Amazing

Does anyone have any progress updates on Hardware Village East and West?

I went by there yesterday.

The Western building is completely finished and occupied. The East building is topped out and exterior materials are being applied. I expect they intend to have that building open by late summer/early fall.

[meman]

Does anybody out there have an update on the construction start date for Tower 8?

I was walking by the staging are for Tower 8 today and noticed that a lot more Temporary construction sidewalks have been built so the construction start date must be close!!

[airhero]

Originally Posted by meman

Does anybody out there have an update on the construction start date for Tower 8?

I was walking by the staging are for Tower 8 today and noticed that a lot more Temporary construction sidewalks have been built so the construction start date must be close!!

They've applied for a site development permit that hasn't been approved yet. The fact that they are prepping everything already says to me that they will break ground as soon as the permit is issued, which should be very soon.

[airhero]

Also some encouraging news is a site development permit application was submitted 5 days ago for Block 67 phase 1. Looks like the developers intend to move on this finally.

Also other site development permits going through soon are Violin School Commons (300 E 200 S), Park Avenue 234 unit multifamily building (shopko site in Sugar House where two office buildings are already under construction), and 2100 South Apartments (206 units going up on 300 W across from Home Depot).