O-Train Line 1/3 [Stage 2 | West Extension | Tunney's to Baseline/Moodie] | U/C - Page 81

rocketphish · #**1601** Posted **Mar 5, 2019, 12:41 PM**

Councillors angered by LRT contract secrecy
Council to vote Wednesday on Stage 2 deals worth $4.66B

Kate Porter · CBC News
Posted: Mar 05, 2019 4:00 AM ET | Last Updated: 27 minutes ago

When city councillors vote to finalize the $4.66-billion procurement deal to expand light rail to Ottawa's suburbs on Wednesday, they'll make the decision without having seen the contracts.

Instead, councillors will direct city manager Steve Kanellakos to negotiate with winning bidders East West Connectors and SNC-Lavalin on their behalf.

However, with mounting concern about the original phase of the LRT project — news some councillors complain they heard first from CBC rather than from city staff — there's growing frustration about that lack of oversight.

Coun. Diane Deans is demanding to see the contracts for herself.

"We've been asking for it, and apparently the decision is they would parse out pieces of it that we specifically want to see, but they are not prepared to show the [entire] contract," Deans said.

According to University of Ottawa law professor Stéphane Emard-Chabot, a former Ottawa city councillor, it's common practice for municipal politicians to set the parameters for large procurement deals, but let staff hammer out the nitty gritty details.

Showing contracts to elected officials also heightens the risk of sensitive commercial information being leaked, Emard-Chabot said.

"The fact that council is not seeing the wording of the contract itself is quite common," he said. "It might not mesh with what the public might expect, but that's the rule."

Another council veteran, Rick Chiarelli, said councillors who want to see the contracts would be forced to sign a nondisclosure agreement, placing them in a potential quandary.

"It's unethical to sign an agreement not to tell the public something that's in their interest. I'm not going to do that," Chiarelli vowed.

But even city treasurer Marian Simulik told councillors during their marathon session on Feb. 27 that she couldn't speak to the contracts because she hadn't seen the working copies.

Chiarelli said he found that surprising, because Simulik had drawn up the long-range financial plan for Stage 2.

"I thought for sure she would have been given that information," he said.

Several councillors have expressed frustration over the tight turnaround time, especially since they only learned that the project had ballooned by more than $1.2 billion on Feb. 22, the day the winning bids were announced.

"What would be asinine is to approve a $1.2-billion cost overrun without being able to question and test all of the elements of that. That is absolutely ridiculous," Chiarelli said.

Chiarelli said he was forced to file a freedom of information request about the land deals related to Stage 1, but has been kept waiting a year.

He's openly questioning whether councillors have enough information to make a decision about Stage 2.

"The information we're getting comes to us first through the media, and then we get updates from staff based on what's been out in the media. And that's just not acceptable," Chiarelli said.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/lrt2-contracts-ottawa-city-council-1.5042035

Ottawaresident · #**1602** Posted **Mar 5, 2019, 3:32 PM**

More controversy

Capital Shaun · #**1603** Posted **Mar 5, 2019, 5:20 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by kmcamp

I do have one question, I thought the deadline is due to the trillium line contract. Aren't the two contracts independent?

I would assume the contracts are separate.

Kitchissippi · #**1604** Posted **Mar 5, 2019, 9:43 PM**

Looking at the revised GeoOttawa map, it seems like the tracks remain far apart between Cleary and New Orchard. Is this supposed to two separate cut-and-cover tunnels or one unnecessarily wide one? I can see the advantage of two narrow excavations against Byron and Richmond if they want to keep trees in the middle, but having a wide shallow tunnel means you can't plant much on top.

PHrenetic · #**1605** Posted **Mar 6, 2019, 12:25 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

Looking at the revised GeoOttawa map, it seems like the tracks remain far apart between Cleary and New Orchard. Is this supposed to two separate cut-and-cover tunnels or one unnecessarily wide one? I can see the advantage of two narrow excavations against Byron and Richmond if they want to keep trees in the middle, but having a wide shallow tunnel means you can't plant much on top.

Good Day.

I severely doubt that it will be two separate narrow side-by-side tunnels.
Rather I expect that it would be a single tunnel with support wall or pillars down the center, allowing a lighter roof structure with better and more consistent support across a thinner set of roof beams and slabs, than would be the case of two tracks as close together as physically possible. Rules and Regs require a dynamic free-passage envelope anyway, so a certain width is required, and with a bit more width you get room enough for center support. Then apply the waterproofing, the drainage, the cover dirt and fill, and the surface landscaping (with shallow root trees and thick brush and shrubbery.
I also expect that this is only an artifact of the GeoOttawa presentation, with the reality being that the tunnel and tracks will be somewhat narrower than the station widths. (IE: don't expect perfection from the poor maintainer; they're doing the best they can with limited TEMPR (time effort money people resources). I for one am willing to cut them some slack.

To the GeoOttawa team..... THX , crew !

rocketphish · #**1606** Posted **Mar 6, 2019, 12:50 PM**

Decision day: Councillors brace for LRT vote
Group of 6 demanding more time to ponder 'biggest decision in the city's history'

Kate Porter · CBC News
Posted: Mar 06, 2019 4:00 AM ET | Last Updated: 3 hours ago

Ottawa city council is on track to approve the $4.66-billion expansion of its light rail system on Wednesday, despite learning just a day earlier that the project's first phase won't be ready until as late as June.

As CBC News has reported, the Confederation Line has experienced significant issues during testing in winter weather.

Top managers at the city spent much of Tuesday reassuring councillors that those problems are minor.

But councillors are also feeling the pressure of having to sift through hundreds of pages of documents they received just 12 days ago — documents that detail how the cost of Stage 2 ballooned by $1.2 billion, among other surprises.

Six councillors — one-quarter of council — will try to buy time by asking that a decision on Stage 2 be put off until March 27. The group includes councillors Catherine McKenney, Carol Anne Meehan, Rick Chiarelli, Jeff Leiper, Diane Deans and Shawn Menard.

The road to awarding the expansion contracts has taken years. City rail planners say Ottawa has already committed $600 million to Stage 2, including buying the trains and building a garage. Backing out now would also see each of the three companies involved — SNC-Lavalin, Kiewit and Vinci Group — awarded a $12 million stipend.

Here's how some councillors are approaching Wednesday's vote.

Keith Egli, Knoxdale-Merivale

Quote:

I'm feeling good about the vote. We had a previous council step away from a procurement process. That cost us almost $40 million to settle a lawsuit, years of delay, and other dollars in terms of preparation for that procurement process.

We're very far along this road, and I think we need to continue with it. To pull out of this would mean a much greater delay, certainly means more cost.

We're going to have part of a train system sitting there for God knows how many years if we don't proceed, which is not the goal. The goal is to have a system that serves the city and serves the bulk of the residents. That's what we're trying to do here.

Catherine McKenney, Somerset

Quote:

I feel that I have a real obligation to residents I represent to ensure that I understand this Phase 2 contract as well as I possibly can, that every question I have is answered. And not in a public forum, not with a five-minute time limit.

I need more time to understand Phase 2 and how we will have any confidence that we are entering into the right agreement. I would like to see, and will probably be working with some of my colleagues on a motion, to defer to March 27.

There is absolutely no reason why we shouldn't be afforded two more weeks. It allows us all that time to really do the due diligence that we're here to to provide for our residents.

Theresa Kavanagh, Bay

Quote:

I don't want to see it delayed, I really don't. I think it's really important to Bay ward.

We're all frustrated. We're all upset about not just the delay but the cost overrun. However, we really really want it.

I guess there's still a mystery in terms of those comments that came up from that article. And I'm still pondering it, but my heart says I want this.

Jan Harder, Barrhaven

Quote:

You heard [Tuesday] a lot of questions were asked. Mr. Manconi was rock solid on his responses and I had absolutely the confidence that he was telling us all the facts as he knew it. I've known him for 30 years and I know how he works, so I have lots of confidence in that.

I know the people that I represent, by huge numbers, understand that Stage 2 to Baseline means [eventually light rail to] Barrhaven. Stage 2 to Moodie means [eventually] Kanata. And that's what we've been on board all this time for. That's what we're waiting for.

We've had a miserable winter. We've had our trains tested through a miserable winter. I will be supporting [Stage 2]. We need to move forward with Stage 2, and very quickly we need to move forward Stage 3.

Diane Deans, Gloucester-Southgate

Quote:

Thirteen days was never enough time to give council the opportunity to do their job. That's just not enough time on a $4.7-billion decision.

One of my colleagues said that we're given more time on decisions about placement of a play structure in one of our parks than we are on the biggest decision in the city's history.

And we all know that the devil is in the detail, and the details are unclear to us.

There does appear to be a real rush to get this thing inked, and none of us really know why that is. But I think the public are sending a message to city hall loud and clear that they want their elected officials fully informed. They want their elected officials to have the time to do the due diligence, and they don't believe that's happening right now.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/councillors-vote-lrt2-contracts-1.5043877

Multi-modal · #**1607** Posted **Mar 6, 2019, 1:07 PM**

I know a lot of people have been calling for this for a while, but I didn't have strong opinions on the matter. Now though... fire Manconi

I'm sure he's under a lot of stress, but his interview with CBC Ottawa Morning just now was atrocious. He at least needs some classes in public relations.

roger1818 · #**1608** Posted **Mar 6, 2019, 2:28 PM**

COUNCILLOR’S NOTEBOOK: WHY I’M SUPPORTING STAGE 2 LIGHT RAIL
by Glen Gower | Mar 5, 2019 | Notebook

On Wednesday, City Council will make a decision on whether to proceed with Stage 2 of Light Rail Transit (LRT). I will be voting in support of it.

Stage 2 is a good investment for our city’s future. I heard loud and clear from residents during the election that there is strong support for meaningful investment in transit to serve our growing community. You also told me that affordability and value is paramount and that you want greater accountability to ensure the city is protected from cost overruns and delays. The plan in front of us achieves these objectives.

As a councillor I have an important oversight role and must ensure that the decisions I make are in the best interest of our community and the city at large. This project is complex and controversial, and has a long-term impact on our community that will extend decades into the future. Any project of this size will bring risk – what’s important is ensuring that the city has reasonable plans in place to mitigate these risks.

While the short timeframe for this decision is not ideal, I have had every opportunity to talk directly with transportation and finance staff to get a full understanding of the project and associated risks. I’ve read through hundreds of pages of reports and supporting documents, I’ve attended multiple meetings on this issue, and I’ve received and listened to feedback from residents.

The benefit of this investment is clear. Last week at City Hall, council heard from delegation after delegation of business leaders about the positive impact of LRT on our city’s economic growth. Stage 2 will move over 20,000 people per hour in our community. As we grow into a city of a million people we need to have reliable, safe, and modern transit. It will serve every post-secondary school in the area: Carleton, uOttawa, Algonquin, and la Cité. Stage 2 is estimated to generate $5.6 billion in direct and indirect economic benefit to our City and the construction will create 27,500 person years of employment and boost confidence in our local economy.

To stop or delay this project now would set us back by years, put the existing federal and provincial funding agreements in jeopardy, and cost taxpayers hundreds of millions of dollars.

Most importantly, this procurement brings us closer to getting Stage 3 LRT to Kanata-Sittsville. I continue to work with my colleagues Jenna Sudds (Kanata North) and Allan Hubley (Kanata South) to secure the financial and political support to make this happen.

And in the short term, the focus continues to be getting Stage 1 LRT up and running. The delay is the root cause of many of the reliability issues riders are currently experiencing in our bus system. It can’t come soon enough. At today’s FEDCO meeting, Rideau Transit Group told councillors that the system is on track to be delivered in the second quarter of this year – prior to the end of June.

(see link for Q&A)

https://www.glengower.ca/notebook/councillors-notebook-why-im-supporting-stage-2-light-rail/

Ottawaresident · #**1609** Posted **Mar 6, 2019, 3:05 PM**

Who wrote that?

roger1818 · #**1610** Posted **Mar 6, 2019, 3:19 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ottawaresident

Who wrote that?

Who wrote what? Your posts never seem to have any reference.

If you are referring to the previous article I posted, why don't you read it to see (emphasis added)?

Quote:

Originally Posted by roger1818

by Glen Gower | Mar 5, 2019 | Notebook

TransitZilla · #**1611** Posted **Mar 6, 2019, 3:59 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Multi-modal

I know a lot of people have been calling for this for a while, but I didn't have strong opinions on the matter. Now though... fire Manconi

I'm sure he's under a lot of stress, but his interview with CBC Ottawa Morning just now was atrocious. He at least needs some classes in public relations.

I listened to it and I can't agree. I like Robyn Bresnahan but I didn't think it was the fairest interview.

In his position he should be concerned about outcomes. There's nothing to be gained from freaking out; this project will only get finished through continued attention to making sure all of the elements are executed and tested thoroughly.

Assuming that it works as promised, then once the system is open, people will forget about the delays. So that's all the more reason to make sure that it will work as promised.

Some of the issues that they have had don't lend themselves to quick 3 second explanations. The interviewer kept interrupting because that's what she was looking for.

Kitchissippi · #**1612** Posted **Mar 6, 2019, 4:16 PM**

The sad thing is that this s#!tshow has little to do with the quality of the trains, or whether the LRT is viable or not. It's all just because of poor communication and time management/timing.

Had RTG finished on time we wouldn't be here. Beyond that they could had been more truthful and forthcoming regarding the delays.

The city also delayed the bids for Stage 2, had they decided on this earlier when they originally planned the situation would not have been as controversial. While it's strange that bidders got an extension and council has no room to delay, delaying the decision won't really change the bids or the price. The decision is whether you want it or not, so if you do just vote yes.

If this happened to a road/highway project, hardly anyone would bat an eyelash.

AndyZagg · #**1613** Posted **Mar 6, 2019, 6:50 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by kmcamp

I do have one question, I thought the deadline is due to the trillium line contract. Aren't the two contracts independent?

What I heard today is that the contracts are independent, but the requests for funding from the various levels of government are not independent.

So they can't split them up at this point without jeopardizing that money.

Someone can correct me if I'm wrong.

J.OT13 · #**1614** Posted **Mar 6, 2019, 7:26 PM**

Over the last hour or so, councilors asked a whole bunch of questions regarding the 70% minimum scoring threshold in order to have a bid considered, if it was respected, if it was altered, if it was possible for a winning bidder to not have achieved it, and the whole time, City staff refused to answer due to "legal" issues. "Your job is to just trust us". Finally, Deans was able to ask the "right" question to get the answer they were looking for;

.@dianedeans wants to know who wrote the RFP for LRT2. Gilbert: City staff, outside advisors. Deans: Is there any way of changing that 70% threshold (to select a bidder)? Gilbert: there is no way. #ottcity
https://twitter.com/KatePorterCBC/status/1103373760130887681

It's kind of like a game where you have to outsmart the gate keeper by re-formulating the same questions over and over again until you're able to get the answer you're looking for. Like finding the magic word or secret password.