O-Train Line 2/4 [Stage 2 | Greenboro to Limebank/Airport] | In Service

[Ottawaresident]

Oh, the bridge forthe O Train?

[Mikeed]

If the Trillium Line plan was reset. I wonder what could be designed if we ran an airport link from the train station direct to the airport, and left the trillium line to go to Riverside South. This would have stops at Train Station (Confed. Line), Billings Bridge (Baseline-Heron-Walkley Crosstown Transitway), South Keys (Trillium Line) and Airport/EY centre. At this point some of the south east transitway can be canabalized to make connections with the Crosstown Transitway to Billings Bridge and Trillium Line / Airport link easier.

Again, this would be part of a "reset & rethink".

Heron station and the transitway section from Heron Road north to Billings Bridge could be used as the Crosstown to Hurdman transitway junction. The right of way of the south east transitway from Heron Road to Walkley station and on to south keys ould be used for the trillium line and the existing rail can be used for the airpor link.

This would give downtown a 1 transfer stop to the airport and provide improved mobility to the train station from across the network. They could nestle in a terminal station between the Train Station and Tremblay Otrain station and run something like the UP express rolling stock or recycle the Otrain rolling stock. The diamond has to be redone anyways and they are probably going to double track from the diamond to south keys anyways.

That said the business case for this line would not work as it would not have enough ridership.
---

I think the city should utterly abandon the idea of extending LRT through Riverside South. They should deliver some clarity here and commite to designing a good BRT throughout the integrated commutes Barrhaven and Riverside South.

But I think LRT should end at the Barrhaven VIA rail station.

There a more projects city wide and BRT serves suburbs well.

[lrt's friend]

I attended this evening's meeting. I was the first member of the public to ask a question. I asked about the promise of trains running every 5 minutes in 2006, every 8 minutes in 2015 and now the promise of two transfers to reach downtown with no improvement in the 12 minute frequency. I asked how this was an improvement in service. As you can imagine, I just got the run around about capacity. I then asked how 12 minute frequency integrated with local buses running at 30 minute frequency. Again, a lot of blather that OC Transpo was to integrate bus service with the trains. I really got non-answers. Others noticed that my questions were not addressed.

But I did get one piece of new information. The constraint on improving frequency is the Walkley overpass. The good and bad news is that perhaps in 2038 they will address the Walkley issue. If the Walkley overpass allowed double tracking, then frequency could be improved to 10 minutes. The general attitude was that capacity of the line was the only importance, not service to the public.

It was stated again that trains could be redirected to the airport spur for special events, but I still can't wrap my mind around this as far as the confusion this would create. Presumably, this would only take place for popular events at the EY Centre on weekends. Otherwise, there would be capacity problems arising from running shorter LINT trains on the mainline.

One further plum was that all streets crossing the Trillium Line in Riverside South will have to be overpasses. This is not really new information but it confirmed that Trillium Line will run at grade. They are preparing the line to allow for overpasses for each collector.

One vocal person who worked as a supervisor on Phase 1 spoke of incompetence by both RTG and the city during construction. Whether this person had an axe to grind or not is possible, but we all know that this project did not proceed perfectly and to some degree, this is normal.

I met Gat-Train at the event who asked some very good questions himself. It is a pleasure to meet fellow forumers in real life.

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

But I did get one piece of new information. The constraint on improving frequency is the Walkley overpass. The good and bad news is that perhaps in 2038 they will address the Walkley issue. If the Walkley overpass allowed double tracking, then frequency could be improved to 10 minutes. The general attitude was that capacity of the line was the only importance, not service to the public.

Well that's not surprising. I wonder how much widening the Walkley overpass would have cost? If it was oh say, $80 million then...

Looking again at geoOttawa it looks like Brookfield is being extended even more than before. The current passing track is around 620m long and on the previously available data it was being extended to 750m long. As of now Brookfield will be extended to be 850m long. Hopefully they'll be able to pull off more of a running meet.

I wonder how confident they are that they'll maintain the 12 minute frequency? Not getting 8 minutes is bad enough but if it ends up being a repeat of last time...

It's pretty disappointing that all of the reports published prior to the tendering process indicated a designed frequency of 10 minutes, and now we're hard stuck with trains every 12 minutes.

It was stated again that trains could be redirected to the airport spur for special events, but I still can't wrap my mind around this as far as the confusion this would create. Presumably, this would only take place for popular events at the EY Centre on weekends. Otherwise, there would be capacity problems arising from running shorter LINT trains on the mainline.

I can't imagine it would really be that bad. Clear signage and announcements should deal with any issues that might arise from it.

[Multi-modal]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

But I did get one piece of new information. The constraint on improving frequency is the Walkley overpass. The good and bad news is that perhaps in 2038 they will address the Walkley issue. If the Walkley overpass allowed double tracking, then frequency could be improved to 10 minutes. The general attitude was that capacity of the line was the only importance, not service to the public.

Ha! I knew it. I've been saying this will be the new constraint all along. I attended and left a comment saying exactly this (that leaving walkley station as single track is a huge risk to the frequency target)... but I had to leave early and didn't hear the questions and answers. Did he say how much it would cost to replace the overpass today?

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

One further plum was that all streets crossing the Trillium Line in Riverside South will have to be overpasses. This is not really new information but it confirmed that Trillium Line will run at grade. They are preparing the line to allow for overpasses for each collector.

Like you said, not news but dissapointing nonetheless. I also left my suggestion for Riverside South Town Centre with the councillors. Hopefully pressure from both developers and the public will get this changed to elevated rail. If I had stayed my question to Chris Swail would have been "I believe there are 4 or more planned north-south collector roads crossing the trillium line - how much will each of these overpasses cost us in the long run?". Make it a cost issue that the councillors can easily understand.

[waterloowarrior]

Thanks for the report, lrt's friend!

In the N-S LRT EA (2006) for Walkley Road, they were required to have a new underpass to be built beside the existing to accommodate 2 tracks (7m clear span). If I'm reading the drawing correctly, this was to be constructed east of the existing tracks/underpass, with the station being built on the north side. Later on, the City was looking at integrating the station with adjacent development on the south side before the project was cancelled.

Report/EA drawings for reference - there is a list of all the structures required in the report
http://ottawa.ca/calendar/ottawa/citycouncil/occ/2005/07-13/trc/ACS2005-PGM-POL-0048.htm

contract award
http://ottawa.ca/calendar/ottawa/citycouncil/occ/2006/06-14/ACS2006-PGM-ECO-0014%20%20English.htm

Not bringing this up to reopen old wounds, but it helps in figuring out what else would be needed to fully double track. It sounds like they were planning to build parallel structures in several cases instead of widening existing or replacing

[TransitZilla]

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

Well that's not surprising. I wonder how much widening the Walkley overpass would have cost? If it was oh say, $80 million then...

I was at the meeting tonight as well and I thought that answer was very interesting. It would be very good to know what the cost of double-tracking Walkley now would be.

Looking again at geoOttawa it looks like Brookfield is being extended even more than before. The current passing track is around 620m long and on the previously available data it was being extended to 750m long. As of now Brookfield will be extended to be 850m long. Hopefully they'll be able to pull off more of a running meet.

Mr. Swail indicated that the trains should not have to slow down at all when passing. I think that will be because of a combination of longer passing tracks and the new signalling system. I believe the current signalling system requires 30 seconds to "clear" once a train passes it. That is why the train continues to wait even after the other train has passed. With the new signalling system there will no longer be this delay.

I wonder how confident they are that they'll maintain the 12 minute frequency? Not getting 8 minutes is bad enough but if it ends up being a repeat of last time...

They seemed very confident. Mr. Swail indicated that if a train does get off-schedule, it should be able to catch back up on its next trip, so there must be a bit of slack.

[Mikeed]

I gotta say after more thinking on google earth and the perspectives offered by the poster above me and others, I have basically done a 180 and believe the city really needs to hit the reset button on the Trillium Line.

With the reusing of existing infrastructure, I'm not sure this option proposed would be terribly more expensive.

Another key benefit of using Tremblay as the terminus for the Airport Link using the existing Otrain Trillium Line diesel MSF and rolling stock is YOW could be better linked with people arriving from Smith Falls, Kingston, Belleville for International flights via VIA rail.

Reusing the SE transitway would mean it actually has a purpose in the future. The Baseline/Crosstown Transitway would have a better connection to the Hurdman.

The Trillium Line could be double tracked from Walkley to Limebank and could use Confederation Line rolling stock offering commonality of parts. A MSF would need to be built elsewhere for the Trillium Line.

The city-owned railway right of way to Kanata North could eventually come online much like the original Otrain pilot project and could use the existing diesel Trillium Line trains.

This would give Kanata North employment node a direct line to regional VIA rail and a 1 transfer ride to International flights.






The existing platforms could be used at the start.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

Well that's not surprising. I wonder how much widening the Walkley overpass would have cost? If it was oh say, $80 million then...

Looking again at geoOttawa it looks like Brookfield is being extended even more than before. The current passing track is around 620m long and on the previously available data it was being extended to 750m long. As of now Brookfield will be extended to be 850m long. Hopefully they'll be able to pull off more of a running meet.

I wonder how confident they are that they'll maintain the 12 minute frequency? Not getting 8 minutes is bad enough but if it ends up being a repeat of last time...

It's pretty disappointing that all of the reports published prior to the tendering process indicated a designed frequency of 10 minutes, and now we're hard stuck with trains every 12 minutes.



I can't imagine it would really be that bad. Clear signage and announcements should deal with any issues that might arise from it.

It was mentioned that the goal of Phase 2 was to build in enough slack at each passing track so that if a train fell off schedule by a minute or two that it could be recover at one of the passing tracks. At the present time, once a train fell off schedule, it could not recover. I think we will agree, that a delay would impact the whole line.

I am rather skeptical by this assertion. What the lengthening of the passing track will hopefully do is allow trains to run at closer to full speed instead of slowing to crawl on the sidings as they do today.

I think as long as that it is constrained by single track sections, it will be difficult to avoid impacting other trains on the line if there is a delay impacting even one train.

In any event, they have pretty well given up on improving frequency. It was repeated over and over again, that passenger capacity, not frequency, was the main concern and they believe there is enough capacity until 2048, or at least 2038.

[lrt's friend]

They seemed very confident. Mr. Swail indicated that if a train does get off-schedule, it should be able to catch back up on its next trip, so there must be a bit of slack.

Yes, they said this but I am still somewhat skeptical.

Nevertheless, extending the passing tracks and grade separating Ellwood Junction should improve reliability, which will reduce the frequency of delays.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

It was mentioned that the goal of Phase 2 was to build in enough slack at each passing track so that if a train fell off schedule by a minute or two that it could be recover at one of the passing tracks. At the present time, once a train fell off schedule, it could not recover. I think we will agree, that a delay would impact the whole line.

I am rather skeptical by this assertion. What the lengthening of the passing track will hopefully do is allow trains to run at closer to full speed instead of slowing to crawl on the sidings as they do today.

I think as long as that it is constrained by single track sections, it will be difficult to avoid impacting other trains on the line if there is a delay impacting even one train.

In any event, they have pretty well given up on improving frequency. It was repeated over and over again, that passenger capacity, not frequency, was the main concern and they believe there is enough capacity until 2048, or at least 2038.

This reveals the whole attitude to transit that Uhaniu and others frequently point out here. Who cares what service is provided. We can check the box that service to the airport and everyone who wants to take it can.

If we as a city want to be cheap and keep taxes low and say the hell with transit riders that is one thing but this is an unbelievably expensive bordering on unaffordable project and still have so many limitations and straight up decreases in service for many riders it really isn't acceptable. I don't see how we will have the many to double track Walkley even in 2038 as we will still be paying back the loan for this and have stated any future expansion will need to be 100% funding by other levels of government.

[rocketphish]

Approve LRT Phase 2 deal fast or costs will rise more, planner warns

Tom Spears, Ottawa Citizen
Updated: February 28, 2019

City councillors need to approve a deal on Phase 2 of the LRT fast or the cost is likely to rise even higher, a senior city staffer said Thursday night.

The proposed deal would already cost $1.24 billion more than the city’s estimate, while shutting down the Trillium Line for 28 months beginning next year. And while details only reached council last week, its vote is scheduled for next Wednesday.

Some councillors and residents have wondered aloud whether the time to study and discuss such a massive and complex proposal has been abridged too far.

Coun. Diane Deans, among others, said at Thursday’s meeting that there should be time to look for ways to save money first.

“Why the rush? Arguably that’s an abuse of process when there is so much information, so many questions about cost,” said Terry Wood of the Riverside Park Community Association.

But the city is running out of time to accept this deal, said Chris Swail, the city’s director of O-Train planning.

“Why the rush?” he said to some 100 people attending the open meeting. Because the city has until the end of March not only to approve the full package, but for federal and provincial governments to approve transfer payment agreements as well.

City officials have spent the past two months trying to shave down costs in the front-runners’ proposals, he said, “until finally we ran out of time, essentially.”

That’s when the final proposal went to councillors. But the deal with TransitNEXT, for the Trillium Line, would expire at the end of March.

“If we don’t close this deal, if they are not approved by council in March, if we don’t get the province and the feds to sign a transfer payment agreement, we can’t enter into a commercial relation with them at the end of the month,” Swail said.

“And then that bid validity period wears off and they will recalibrate all of their pricing and their schedule (then), because they will be further behind, and that is going to increase costs.

“So I hear everything you’re saying from a democratic perspective.” That is why the staff are holding meetings and answering questions, he said. “But we don’t want to lose that validity period because we certainly do not want to pay more for this project.”

Deans said she feels rushed into a decision. She is a fan of the LRT but wants to see the first phase in action before moving ahead.

“We would like to have some certainty that Phase 1 is actually going to work and that it is actually going to open at some point, and that it’s not so plagued with problems that it’s going to be something that we should maybe learn from before we get to Stage 2.”

She also said there are questions about “why the project budget bloomed so astronomically” from earlier Phase 2 estimates.

[email protected]
twitter.com/TomSpears1

https://ottawacitizen.com/news/local-new...st-or-costs-will-rise-more-planner-warns

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

This reveals the whole attitude to transit that Uhaniu and others frequently point out here. Who cares what service is provided. We can check the box that service to the airport and everyone who wants to take it can.

If we as a city want to be cheap and keep taxes low and say the hell with transit riders that is one thing but this is an unbelievably expensive bordering on unaffordable project and still have so many limitations and straight up decreases in service for many riders it really isn't acceptable. I don't see how we will have the many to double track Walkley even in 2038 as we will still be paying back the loan for this and have stated any future expansion will need to be 100% funding by other levels of government.

The concern about affordability was brought up last night.

I believe a 35 minute figure was presented here in the last few days for the trip from the airport to Bayview. This is rather alarming because current schedules for Route 97 allow 30 to 35 minutes for the Airport to downtown. I know there is the reliability factor, but, we are buying noticeably slower service with two transfers for $100M+.

I have said this countless times that we should be buying faster service. It seems that compromises and budgets stretched to the limit are making this impossible.

[kmcamp]

Originally Posted by rocketphish

Approve LRT Phase 2 deal fast or costs will rise more, planner warns

Tom Spears, Ottawa Citizen
Updated: February 28, 2019

City councillors need to approve a deal on Phase 2 of the LRT fast or the cost is likely to rise even higher, a senior city staffer said Thursday night.

The proposed deal would already cost $1.24 billion more than the city’s estimate, while shutting down the Trillium Line for 28 months beginning next year. And while details only reached council last week, its vote is scheduled for next Wednesday.

Some councillors and residents have wondered aloud whether the time to study and discuss such a massive and complex proposal has been abridged too far.

Coun. Diane Deans, among others, said at Thursday’s meeting that there should be time to look for ways to save money first.

“Why the rush? Arguably that’s an abuse of process when there is so much information, so many questions about cost,” said Terry Wood of the Riverside Park Community Association.

But the city is running out of time to accept this deal, said Chris Swail, the city’s director of O-Train planning.

“Why the rush?” he said to some 100 people attending the open meeting. Because the city has until the end of March not only to approve the full package, but for federal and provincial governments to approve transfer payment agreements as well.

City officials have spent the past two months trying to shave down costs in the front-runners’ proposals, he said, “until finally we ran out of time, essentially.”

That’s when the final proposal went to councillors. But the deal with TransitNEXT, for the Trillium Line, would expire at the end of March.

“If we don’t close this deal, if they are not approved by council in March, if we don’t get the province and the feds to sign a transfer payment agreement, we can’t enter into a commercial relation with them at the end of the month,” Swail said.

“And then that bid validity period wears off and they will recalibrate all of their pricing and their schedule (then), because they will be further behind, and that is going to increase costs.

“So I hear everything you’re saying from a democratic perspective.” That is why the staff are holding meetings and answering questions, he said. “But we don’t want to lose that validity period because we certainly do not want to pay more for this project.”

Deans said she feels rushed into a decision. She is a fan of the LRT but wants to see the first phase in action before moving ahead.

“We would like to have some certainty that Phase 1 is actually going to work and that it is actually going to open at some point, and that it’s not so plagued with problems that it’s going to be something that we should maybe learn from before we get to Stage 2.”

She also said there are questions about “why the project budget bloomed so astronomically” from earlier Phase 2 estimates.

[email protected]
twitter.com/TomSpears1

https://ottawacitizen.com/news/local-new...st-or-costs-will-rise-more-planner-warns

While the airport spur is pointless, i don't actually feel 10-12 minute headways are actually that bad. Ion will only have a 15 minute frequency midday, and it's double tracked the whole way. What i really hate are the crawling sections. If the train came move at near full speed it would be a big improvement experience wise

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by kmcamp

While the airport spur is pointless, i don't actually feel 10-12 minute headways are actually that bad. Ion will only have a 15 minute frequency midday, and it's double tracked the whole way. What i really hate are the crawling sections. If the train came move at near full speed it would be a big improvement experience wise

Ottawa is twice the size of Kitchener-Waterloo and has much stronger transit culture. Also, ION will have more frequent service during peak periods and an easy upgrade path to better frequency as demand requires. Forget about the 10 minute frequency on the Trillium Line. That is not coming anytime soon.

[PHrenetic]

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

That's been the case since the beginning. They're just (finally) making use of the already-widened corridor there (since there used to be a second track that stretched all the way down to near Beech).

Good Day.

Nope. As of the T-Line EPR from January 2016, appendix j functional design, pg. 24-25 of 91,
https://ottawa.ca/en/residents/transport...ng-and-environmental-assessment-ea-study
from south of Bayview (which was not getting doubled) to just south of Gladstone station, and just north of the 417 bridge, was shown to be getting doubled.
Admittedly, this was the original EPR, which was trying to cut corners big time. But there it is.

And, this also was the limit of the double track wide trench, as per :
https://www.google.com/maps/search/lrt+ottawa/@45.403461,-75.7138687,185m/data=!3m1!1e3

(It also shows on p. 21 the plan to fully double track the entire Carleton stretch from Dow's to Rideau River. <sigh>)

So..... they are widening some of the trench somewhat southwards ? I hope ? Certainly cleans up Gladstone, and the switch location is a bit better.

Now, things have been postponed so long that the 417 overpass is now on schedule to be replaced anyway (as a separate project by MTO, until now),
so just possibly someone has gotten their act together enough to at least co-operate a bit with MTO to do the double tracking through it at the 'same' time.
As well, it would seem from that GeoOttawa that I am referencing to just north of Beech, that the ped overpass at Young,
just south of the 417 overpass, is also being replaced / widened. The cost is small enough ?
But the Beech St. bridge is not. The cost adds too much ? <sigh>.

As I said before - Questions. But ? hopeful ?

[TransitZilla]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

I attended this evening's meeting. I was the first member of the public to ask a question.

So that was you!

Are you also the guy featured in the Community Voice article about missing sidewalks in. Blossom Park?

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by bradnixon

So that was you!

Are you also the guy featured in the Community Voice article about missing sidewalks in. Blossom Park?

Yes, that is me. I had brought up the sidewalk issue before but got nowhere. A couple of weeks ago, I walked to Tim Hortons and faced a mountain of snow, so I approached the reporter. I took a number of pictures along Bank Street that day showing all the obstacles that pedestrians face along Bank Street and sent them to both Diane Deans and the reporter.

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by PHrenetic

Good Day.

Nope. As of the T-Line EPR from January 2016, appendix j functional design, pg. 24-25 of 91,
https://ottawa.ca/en/residents/transport...ng-and-environmental-assessment-ea-study
from south of Bayview (which was not getting doubled) to just south of Gladstone station, and just north of the 417 bridge, was shown to be getting doubled.
Admittedly, this was the original EPR, which was trying to cut corners big time. But there it is.

Ah, I didn't realize they had that as the original plan. geoOttawa has shown the same double tracking as now for the past year at least, so that's what I was meaning.

[PHrenetic]

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

Ah, I didn't realize they had that as the original plan. geoOttawa has shown the same double tracking as now for the past year at least, so that's what I was meaning.

Good Day.

Aye. GeoOttawa gives a good idea of the whats and wheres, but, as mentioned elsewhere, we have no idea of who is maintaining it, nor of the conditions under which they are doing so. It would seem they are doing the best they can, when they can, but with the rare release of news / information / official plans, we are all desperately scraping for what tid-bits we can find.

Hell of a way to run a railroad !