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  #21  
Old Posted Feb 28, 2019, 9:33 PM
Mikeed Mikeed is offline
 
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Originally Posted by phil235 View Post
Hurdman with a bridge over the river to access Main St. is a possibility. Probably not one that Old Ottawa East locals would relish. But unless you have access to an area that can sustain bars and restaurants on non-event nights, you'll never have a proper entertainment district..
My understanding is the current Sens owner wants to build something more like Lansdowne where all the money from the "entertainment district" stays in the wholly owned and operated development. Nor does he care about Gatineau.



The idea of proper walkable entertainment district is only possible on the flats. But what I gather is Melnyk wants a more self-contained district where they can milk a captive audience.
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  #22  
Old Posted Mar 1, 2019, 1:52 AM
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LeBreton Flats was the only location that offered everything needed for a successful NHL Arena development. Right downtown surrounded by various entertainment districts, served by two rapid transit stations and two lines headed in three (and eventually four) directions, ample parking available in buildings a short walk or train ride away, only a short distance by train or foot of around 150,000 office workers and 70,000 university students that could help fill the arena with walk-in traffic.

The only access between Conventry Stadium and Tremblay Station is a narrow pedestrian bridge that could not support the volume of patrons coming in and out, especially considering their is next to nothing, even after development, to get people to arrive early and leave later. The RCMP HQ has the same problem, in addition to its distance to the station and the hostile Vanier Parkway that could get even worse with a giant turning circle for semi trucks in a decade or so.

The Feds St-Laurent lands south of the Queensway, same problem with a narrow pedestrian tunnel crossing to the station. St-Laurent Centre itself might work if we redevelop the entire mall into an entertainment district,but that is highly unlikely.

Hurdman is too isolated of a location. Transit would be the only realistic way to get in. There are no appropriate car routes to handle the volume.

Tunney's might be a good option. As a temporary terminus station, it has been built to handle huge crowds and will otherwise be "overbuilt" for the remainder of its useful lifetime after Stage 2, it's a short train ride to Bayview for those headed south (and eventually north), it has decent road access and has plenty of surface parking today and underground parking in the future.

Lincoln Fields, we're getting too far west again and it would be hard to build a proper arena district.

Anywhere on Line 2 is out of the questions as it does not and will likely never have the capacity to handle the huge arena crowds.
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  #23  
Old Posted Mar 1, 2019, 2:05 AM
acottawa acottawa is offline
 
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Esplanade Laurier?

AFAIK the building has been largely vacated. It could take advantage of existing road, parking and transit infrastructure (since hockey games are not played during office hours).
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  #24  
Old Posted Mar 1, 2019, 2:18 AM
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They are using it as swing space while they renovate offices in Hull. Not sure the lot is wide enough for a hockey arena.
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  #25  
Old Posted Mar 1, 2019, 2:25 AM
Mikeed Mikeed is offline
 
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Hurdman is too isolated of a location. Transit would be the only realistic way to get in. There are no appropriate car routes to handle the volume.
Not sure how you can say that with road network offered by the 417, Riverside, Vanier Parkway and the possible future Alta Vista Parkway.

If you look at it from the map Hurdman is served by many wide collectors, parkways and the 417.

Tunneys is wayyyy worse. Constrained by narrow roads and no high volume collectors. Hurdman has better road access then the flats.

Industrial avenue can easily be widened as well.

Again, I'm not saying is the best plan- but I wouldn't be surprised if the Sens would be happy at Hurdman knowing most of their clientele want to drive, will drive and the ownership wants to keep you in their own pocket of development where they own everything.
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  #26  
Old Posted Mar 1, 2019, 3:00 AM
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I was wondering about this a couple days ago. Physically it fit, but to make a good mixed use project would require some additional land acquisition beyond just the ball diamond and the parking lot.

Also, the transit connections are not as good since it would have access to only one LRT line vs the two for the Lebreton site.
Unless you're coming to see a game and arriving by VIA Rail, from Montreal or Kingston for example, and then it's pretty ideally situated.
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  #27  
Old Posted Mar 1, 2019, 5:34 AM
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Originally Posted by acottawa View Post
Esplanade Laurier?

AFAIK the building has been largely vacated. It could take advantage of existing road, parking and transit infrastructure (since hockey games are not played during office hours).
Nowhere near as much space as is necessary for an arena alone, not to mention an entertainment district. Plus the fact it is undergoing a very expensive 4 year renovation at the moment.
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  #28  
Old Posted Mar 1, 2019, 5:41 AM
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Originally Posted by J.OT13 View Post
...Hurdman is too isolated of a location. Transit would be the only realistic way to get in. There are no appropriate car routes to handle the volume...
Hmmm I don't agree with this. They could finish the parkway that was always intended to run through Hurdman but tunnel it under an the arena district with direct connections to underground parking. It would be almost instantaneous access from the Queensway for East/West traffic and very easy access from the South end.

A footbridge could be built from the Oblate development across the river that would allow a ten minute walk from Lansdowne through Old Ottawa South across the other new footbridge.

I think Hurdman could be an excellent location if done properly. It's not 'downtown', but then what is 'downtown' Ottawa now or in 10 years? Our business district has no nightlife, our nightlife district has no business, our tallest buildings are being built in old neighbourhoods outside of downtown. There is no perfect 'downtown' location for an arena district aside from Lebreton, but Hurdman comes close..
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  #29  
Old Posted Mar 1, 2019, 9:08 AM
YOWetal YOWetal is offline
 
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Melnyk and the Senators need more than free land. What I mean by this is not only do they want/need to not pay for the land but they need the construction cost of the arena to also be subsidized. Since giving a direct government subsidy is untenable currently there needs to be a Lansdowne type joint project with a cash waterfall etc. I don't know the details of the previous agreement but I guess Melnyk wanted even more than that was offering.

Really hard to see a path forward at this point that doesn't involve either a new owner or the Senators moving to a new city. We all prefer the latter but Melnyk seems very reluctant to sell or may wish to sell at the increased price the team would fetch in a more lucrative market. With the dumping of players it is getting a bit like the movie Major League where the owner loses on purpose in order to benefit from a loop whole that allows her to move the team if attendance drops below x.
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  #30  
Old Posted Mar 1, 2019, 10:18 PM
acottawa acottawa is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Harley613 View Post
Nowhere near as much space as is necessary for an arena alone, not to mention an entertainment district. Plus the fact it is undergoing a very expensive 4 year renovation at the moment.
Why does an arena need to be in an “entertainment district” - many hockey arenas are on regular city streets.
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  #31  
Old Posted Mar 1, 2019, 10:21 PM
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Originally Posted by acottawa View Post
Why does an arena need to be in an “entertainment district” - many hockey arenas are on regular city streets.
A new arena doesn't need to be built along with an entertainment district but it helps a ton if there are nearby restaurants/bars/hotels/things to do. CTC is a perfect example of the worst case scenario for an arena with nearby amenities.
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  #32  
Old Posted Mar 1, 2019, 11:31 PM
passwordisnt123 passwordisnt123 is offline
 
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Melnyk has poisoned the well and proven himself untrustworthy for most serious prospective business partners or prospective partners.

I agree with what somebody else said: there's no way the NCC is going to get back into bed with this guy ever again. I'd only add that the same is true for the rest of the Feds and the City too. So I wouldn't expect any prime federal lands being for sale to him anytime soon.

The Baseball stadium that people have been pitching in this thread is owned by the City of Ottawa. Right now Watson and probably a good chunk of the rest of the City council and public service wouldn't piss on Melnyk if he was on fire so don't expect that stadium to ever be for sale to him.

Melnyk is losing friends at a really rapid pace in this city. I think he's going to find himself feeling under siege a lot more quickly and acutely than he anticipates. He has seriously damaged his ability to do business in this town.
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  #33  
Old Posted Mar 2, 2019, 1:14 AM
Marshsparrow Marshsparrow is offline
 
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I can't see a location that is available, access to ltr and 417, sufficient parking and not adjacent to a neighbourhood that would go balistic NIMBY on an arena in their backyard. Can the NCC pull a magic rabbit out of its hat for Lebreton? If not, and if Eugene not going anywhere Kanata looks like home for the forseeable future.
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  #34  
Old Posted Mar 4, 2019, 4:18 AM
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RendezVous LeBreton plan dead, but there are other locations suitable for Melnyk's arena

Rick Gibbons
Updated: March 2, 2019


WANTED: Land for new NHL arena. Must be located inside Greenbelt along LRT. Quick access to Queensway. Low price, easy terms, no-money-down preferred. Willing to consider partner with deep pockets & development know-how. Possible trade for existing arena & lifetime season-ticket package.

•

Turns out RendezVous LeBreton was just an illusion meant to bedazzle sports fans and bluff the NCC into thinking that, after a long selection process, it had picked the perfect plan to transform a prime piece of real estate in the heart of the city.

What the NCC couldn’t possibly gauge was whether the Mutt and Jeff partnership behind the bid could get along. The NCC had no reason to think otherwise. The consequences of that miscalculation were laid bare this week.

Beyond the design boards and fancy presentations stood two highly successful entrepreneurs with no history of working together and nothing in common except a shared belief there was money to be made from this once in a lifetime opportunity.

The team had long yearned to secure a foothold in the downtown core and the chance to anchor the franchise in LeBreton Flats was like Manna from Heaven for ownership and fans alike. That the ambitious $4-billion project teamed the Senators’ owner with a prominent businessman known to get things done made it that much better.

Differences between John Ruddy and the enigmatic Eugene Melnyk festered almost the minute the ink was dry on their deal. There were early fights over unpaid bills. Differences in expectations grew. Melnyk was also distracted by serious health issues.

A much deeper feud spilled into the open late last year in a messy round of competing lawsuits that laid bare vastly different perspectives on who would pay for what, leading to a complete breakdown in the partnership.

Turned out Melnyk wanted out of the deal early on. A last-ditch, two-month mediation effort failed to bridge crippling gaps, leaving the NCC no choice this week but to declare RendezVous LeBreton dead before the first shovel of dirt was ever dug.

Melnyk said he was “shattered’’ by the experience and has vowed to pick up his pucks and find somewhere else to play.

“We are here for the long-term and want a world-class venue where Ottawans will live, work, play and enjoy the best the city has to offer,” he said in a statement.

The collapse in the partnership will make things very tough for the Senators’ owner, who has earned a reputation for being temperamental. Ottawa Mayor Jim Watson placed blame for the RendeVous failure squarely on Melnyk’s shoulders, having grown frustrated in his own dealings with him.

Finding a new site won’t be easy. Melnyk’s finances are private and his wealth is largely tied up in the pharmaceutical industry. He currently runs his hockey operations as lean as possible, all of which suggests it’s highly unlikely he has the cash to go it alone. Nor does he have the development expertise to execute a large and complex project that, by necessity, would be much bigger and more expensive than a simple rink on a field.

The economics of today’s NHL demand much larger, multi-purpose complexes with revenue streams far beyond tickets, parking and beers sales.

Melnyk has long favoured the Edmonton model where franchise owner Daryl Katz successfully navigated construction of a $600-million downtown complex using a mix of company cash, loans, ticket surcharges and even some government money. It quickly fuelled a building boom surrounding the new rink and likely secured the team’s prosperity for a generation. The search for a new home for the Senators would have to begin on the understanding it would need to be something similar for it to work.

Those familiar with the real estate industry say almost any reasonable alternate location could take years to negotiate and to secure appropriate financing. There would also need to be city approvals. But the biggest obstacle is money. Does he have it? Can he raise it? Can he find a dance partner, given his reputation for being difficult? Can he secure any government funding?

The good news is there are potential sites in the city, although none of them comparable to LeBreton Flats. Some properties that might fit the bill already have development plans in place. Others will prove far too expensive. Some would require zoning flexibility from a city whose mayor is feeling awfully burned by the LeBreton fiasco. But it’s real estate. Almost anything is possible at the right price.

The search needs to begin with a few basic requirements:

• It must be inside the Greenbelt. Fans want a location that is central and easily accessible. Putting it in Orléans or the far south end of the city accomplishes nothing. He might as well stay in Kanata. A new site doesn’t need to be in the centre of the city. Close would work.

• A plot of land alongside the first or second phase of LRT is imperative if you are going to accommodate large numbers of fans. The future is transit, not cars. That complicates matters since savvy developers have already scooped up land along the LRT corridor. Phase 3 LRT will take far too long and push the search too far from the city’s core.

• The new site must have easy access to the 417. Many fans will still prefer to use their own cars and some will have no choice. You need to accommodate them without tying parts of the city up in traffic knots.


Here are some locations that, with a little luck and a lot of cash, might fit the bill, provided there was co-operation from one or more levels of government.

1200 Vanier Parkway: The RCMP has pretty much completed its move to new digs in Nepean. Its former headquarters is prime real estate, located with a river view and alongside a 417 interchange. There’s good road access from all directions and decent proximity to downtown. It’s a hike across the Queensway to the future Tremblay station, but there’s a new under-utilized pedestrian bridge that would probably welcome traffic. Current owner: Federal government.

MTO Lands, St. Laurent Blvd: Another site with excellent access to the 417. Still, a hike across the Queensway to the future St. Laurent LRT station. Current owner: Ontario government.

Lincoln Fields Shopping Centre on Carling near the Western Parkway: It currently stands almost empty, with a few retailers struggling to hang on until redevelopment. The site will be well served by Phase 2 of LRT. Queensway access is less than perfect, but proximity to the Sir John A Macdonald Parkway is excellent and would help relieve some traffic concerns. Current owner: Real estate investment firm RioCan REIT. It already has plans for the site, but might be persuaded if the money was right.

National Defence Headquarters, 101 Colonel By Dr.: This is considered a dream location. It’s in the heart of the city, along the canal. Well served by LRT. The space is not currently available and DND has no plans to abandon its proximity to downtown. But who knows? Transition of many DND employees to the old Nortel site on Moodie Drive continues apace and the available space for expansion there just might be enough to convince DND to move the entire operation out to Nepean — lock, stock and — barrel — if the price is right.


Looking for more? Pick almost any shopping centre inside the Greenbelt. The Carlingwood Mall or even St. Laurent Mall would likely be available at the right price given continued decline in the fortunes of brick and mortar stores.

Of course, returning to LeBreton under a different plan and different partnership can’t be ruled out, although Melnyk has likely burned too many bridges to be welcomed into any partnership with open arms.

The last and maybe only option left would be to recommit to Kanata. It makes sense in the short-term, but without the opportunity to build major new revenue streams like a casino or entertainment district, the long-term prospects are grim.

When it comes to finding a new home for the Senators, Melnyk can forget about relocation to another city. The NHL has strict rules on relocation and he fails the test on all counts.

He would have to prove the team cannot be viable in Ottawa and that there are no prospective buyers in the city. There are at least two alternative bids, possibly three, waiting in the wings and Ottawa has proven itself a good hockey market.

Suffice to say Ottawa is home to the Senators for many years to come. The question is where and maybe under whose ownership.

— Gibbons is a former Publisher and CEO of the Ottawa Sun He can be heard weekdays 1-3 PM on 1310 NEWS

https://ottawacitizen.com/news/local-new...wcm/b6d7b7f5-2205-4bd9-9a09-9acb22908312
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  #35  
Old Posted Mar 4, 2019, 1:44 PM
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On a family trip right now so cannot post links but LeDroit today has a bunch of articles about plans for a Sens arena near Casino du Lac Leamy.
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  #36  
Old Posted Mar 4, 2019, 2:05 PM
LeadingEdgeBoomer LeadingEdgeBoomer is offline
 
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On a family trip right now so cannot post links but LeDroit today has a bunch of articles about plans for a Sens arena near Casino du Lac Leamy.
Would the City of Gatineau and the Province of Quebec (or the Quebec lottery corporation) put up the money?
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  #37  
Old Posted Mar 4, 2019, 2:50 PM
lrt's friend lrt's friend is offline
 
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On a family trip right now so cannot post links but LeDroit today has a bunch of articles about plans for a Sens arena near Casino du Lac Leamy.
How does that work when we have such a inadequate interprovincial transit system? This sounds like CTC 2.0
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  #38  
Old Posted Mar 4, 2019, 2:51 PM
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JHikka JHikka is offline
 
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Originally Posted by lrt's friend View Post
How does that work when we have such a inadequate interprovincial transit system? This sounds like CTC 2.0
I was only half-joking about my Rideau-Carleton Casino plan last week. Didn't think someone would legitimately propose a casino tie-in plan.
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  #39  
Old Posted Mar 4, 2019, 3:08 PM
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I can't see any new arena being built with Melnyk as the owner. If he didn't have money to build at Lebreton, why would he suddenly have enough cash for anywhere else?

All the other possible locations that have been mentioned are inadequate compared to Lebreton, I'm really hoping any future Lebreton development leaves a parcel of land for a future arena that a future owner of the Sens can build on.
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  #40  
Old Posted Mar 4, 2019, 3:17 PM
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Maybe I'm WWWAAAYYYY out of line here, but maybe this was the plan all along (at least over the last year). Maybe Brigil offered Melnyk a better deal and that's why Melnyk sabotaged the LeBreton deal. That could explain why the NHL is still seemingly on Melnyk's side.

Massive conspiracy theory, I know, but both Desjardins and Melnyk have big egos and are can be very manipulative.
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