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  #2761  
Old Posted Feb 28, 2019, 1:22 AM
CityTech CityTech is offline
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Originally Posted by acottawa View Post
I have no idea, but I think a pretty clear clue is, as OTSkyline said, no big developer came forward. No pension funds, no sovereign wealth funds, not even Claridge. The 4 principals in both bids (Devcore, Mirens, Trinity and SSE) have (as far as I can tell) built as many tall buildings between them as I have (zero). Ottawa probably just doesn’t have that kind of real estate market.
Yeah, this is a pretty big red flag. These are the people who generally get involved in these sorts of large scale developments. The NCC should take this a a severe indictment of its process.
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  #2762  
Old Posted Feb 28, 2019, 1:38 AM
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Ottawa Mayor Jim Watson takes a shot at Senators owner over arena dispute

Justin Tang, The Canadian Press
Published February 27, 2019, Updated 2 hours ago


Ottawa Mayor Jim Watson has expressed disappointment in Senators owner Eugene Melnyk now that a proposed new downtown arena for the NHL team is in jeopardy.

Speaking after the National Capital Commission (NCC) announced on Wednesday that no settlement could be reached on the LeBreton Flats file in mediation, Watson said Melnyk did not help the cause with some of his comments.

“I said earlier today, one of the frustrations I think in this partnership was Eugene Melnyk [and] the very fact that during the NHL outdoor [game at TD Place in Ottawa in 2017], or just before that, was musing about not even going downtown,” said Watson, who also is a non-voting member of the NCC board.

“I was pretty livid with him back then. I said, ‘Wait a minute. You’re putting a lot of time, effort and money into this process and you come out and just muse off the top of your head, ‘Well, I’m not interested in moving downtown.’

“The whole purpose was because you wanted to move the arena downtown because there’s no walk-up traffic in Kanata [home of the Senators’ current arena, the Canadian Tire Centre]. You need that kind of walk-up traffic and transit connections to make the arena successful like all arenas in North America are in the downtown core.”

The new arena was part of the RendezVous LeBreton Group’s proposal for the land controlled by the NCC.

Judge Warren Winkler, the mediator retained by RendezVous, advised the NCC that no settlement could be reached prior to Thursday’s deadline.

Winkler had been presiding over mediation between partners in the RendezVous LeBreton Group: Melnyk, Trinity Development Group founder John Ruddy and GBA Development and Project Management president Graham Bird.

Melnyk’s Capital Sports Management Inc., filed a $700-million lawsuit against Ruddy and Bird in November. Ruddy – also a member of the ownership group of the CFL’s Ottawa Redblacks, the United Soccer League’s Ottawa Fury and the Ontario Hockey League’s Ottawa 67’s – responded with a $1-billion counterclaim.

While filing a statement of defence against Melnyk’s lawsuit, Bird got the three parties to agree to mediation in early January.

“We looked to mediation as our best opportunity to address and resolve these concerns,” Melnyk said in a statement. “We participated in the process to the very end.

“We are devastated that our dream has been shattered. However, we will not let our vision die or allow our enthusiasm to be diminished by this ill-fated experience. … We are here for the long term and want a world class venue where Ottawans will live, work, play and enjoy the best the city has to offer. The people of Ottawa deserve this.”

Ruddy also released a statement, thanking Winkler.

“While I am disappointed the mediation concluded without success, I would urge the National Capital Commission to move forward on the redevelopment of LeBreton Flats – regardless of whether Trinity Group plays a role or not – given the importance of this redevelopment to our community,” Ruddy said.

Bird declined to comment.

The NCC board of directors will hold a teleconference on Thursday to review the file. The Crown corporation says it will hold a meeting on March 7 to finalize the process for the redevelopment of LeBreton Flats.

Mayor Watson wasn’t ready to eliminate the possibility of an arena being built at LeBreton.

“One of the things that’s been talked about in the past is that if you don’t have the Senators involved, you save the equivalent piece of land for an arena or some other institute of national significance that it can be used [for] and then [Melnyk] might realize that he should be downtown and make overtures to whoever wins the next proposal bid,” Watson said.

The founder of the Senators, meanwhile, offered a different suggestion when asked about the future of the NHL’s last-place team.

“Reboot the arena [in Kanata] and improve the team,” Bruce Firestone said. “Winning cures a lot. Ottawa is a great hockey town. … Really, this is a tough time for [the] team, there’s no question.”

Firestone said he approached the NCC about a downtown arena some 30 years ago and was told the plans for that land “did not include a hockey rink, even if it’s a very nice hockey rink.” So he looked at various other potential sites before settling upon Kanata.

“Our first choice was LeBreton so I was pretty excited when the RendezVous LeBreton plan came out,” Firestone said. “I think it’s a world-class plan. RendezVous LeBreton wasn’t just important for the hockey team, I think it’s important for the city and I think it was the best plan and the fact that it’s no longer on the table, at least as of today, I think that’s a big loss for not only the franchise but also for the city.”

The NHL team has dealt with a long list of negative headlines for on- and off-ice developments since falling one goal short of reaching the Stanley Cup final in 2017.

The Senators traded away top forwards Mark Stone, Matt Duchene and Ryan Dzingel for younger players and draft picks before this week’s trade deadline after being unable to come to terms on new contracts for the pending unrestricted free agents.

Ottawa also dealt its first pick in this year’s draft – expected to be very high because of the team’s poor record – in the original deal to get Duchene last season.

The Senators lost 7-2 to the Washington Capitals on Tuesday night, Ottawa’s fifth defeat in a row.

“When it rains, it pours,” Watson said. “It’s been a really bad time for them. They’re in the basement of the standings, they’ve traded away three of their best players and now this. It’s hasn’t been a good stretch of time, but I’m not giving up on the Senators. I think we have to continue to support the team because, obviously, they bring a lot to the local economy, the tourism industry, the spirit of the city. When they’re winning, everyone’s on the bandwagon so let’s not take this big disappointment that the city and citizens will face and start blaming the team and the players.”

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/a...extension-on-deadline-to-resolve-ottawa/
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  #2763  
Old Posted Feb 28, 2019, 2:53 AM
Vixx Vixx is offline
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I have so much to say as both a big Senators fan and as a proponent of good urban development of my hometown that I could write an essay.

From the hockey side, I'm slowly starting to worry about the viability of the franchise in Ottawa. This city loves its team and the Senators for so long were a source of pride and an intricate part of Ottawa's identity, but thats been reduced to shambles now. I get that teams sometimes have to go through a rebuild (like the Leafs did as one of many examples) and that rebuilds can be long and drawn out processes, but not like this. The team was gutted for no other reason then the owner not willing to pony up for our former star players and being a hostile prick to players and fans. Going from a great core of players who were inches from a Stanley Cup final run two years ago to barely having an AHL team is ridiculous.

I have no doubt that there are buyers who would love to buy the team tomorrow and keep the team in Ottawa and make them a competitive powerhouse, but Melnyk being the prick he is will fight tooth and nail from losing control over the Sens. I'd have to think the NHL are having intense conversations on where the team goes from here and are lining up many hypotheticals should things continue the way they are.

From the Lebreton redevelopment perspective, this is a blow to rejuvenation plan that was to really spruce up and give some life in a prominent area of downtown. 3 years down the drain and all for nothing to show.

I'm not sure what the NCC does from here. Let Rendezvous get a crack at it? A lot of problems with that as has ben discussed ad nauseam. I think they will take a step back and really rethink what they are to do now. Maybe team up with the city and try and get another international competition going to see what others have in mind for the land? Not sure.

We can debate all day about the direction the NCC should head and those discussions will continue to occur (because what else do we have left at this point?) but suffice to say right now, this is a crappy day for the city and a lot of question marks remain and will remain for awhile.
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  #2764  
Old Posted Feb 28, 2019, 6:27 AM
JohnnyRenton JohnnyRenton is offline
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Originally Posted by CityTech View Post
Yeah, this is a pretty big red flag. These are the people who generally get involved in these sorts of large scale developments. The NCC should take this a a severe indictment of its process.
I think the way the NCC has approached Lebreton is a big problem. The NCC doesn’t have a great track record of building exciting, urban spaces. It always seems like their ideas are fine, but they are never great.

And that brings me to what I think is the biggest problem, that Lebreton is still too isolated from neighbourhoods with a strong urban presence. The Trinity development at Bayview, and the development that is emerging in that area will help give Lebreton something to tie into. And Zibi will help a lot too. But right now, it’s not an interesting place to build and you can see that through a total lack of interest on the part of developers or investors.

I don’t know what the answer to fixing the Lebreton problem is. It might simply be that more time is needed for surrounding areas to develop so that there is a bit more pressure to start spilling over into the flats. Maybe if they started development at the eastern end, where they could tie Lebreton into the fast changing Mechanicsville and Hintonburg neighborhoods, and the development around Bayview, it would be more appealing to developers and buyers, versus buying a condo in the middle of a field.

If I had to sum it up in one line, Lebreton feels like it’s being designed by people who have never actually live in the heart of the city, or understand what people like about urban neighbourhoods. And that mindset has gotten the project to where it is today.

Last edited by JohnnyRenton; Feb 28, 2019 at 1:26 PM.
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  #2765  
Old Posted Feb 28, 2019, 1:43 PM
passwordisnt123 passwordisnt123 is offline
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Originally Posted by lrt's friend View Post
If the NCC owns the land, why does the city have to pay for the decontamination of the site? It seems to me that the NCC should be paying for it by reducing the price of the land.
Because the city has a brownfields remediation program that usually subsidizes these types of things for all kinds of owners but as I understand it they simply don’t want to apply the full formula to Lebreton Flats parcel because it’s an order of magnitude more than they’re used to shoveling out.

I say: if you have a formula and a program for environmental remediation it should be applied in full without prejudice. The fact that this would be an order of magnitude more simply means it’s a project that’s an order of magnitude more ambitious and that should be rewarded not punished.
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  #2766  
Old Posted Feb 28, 2019, 2:08 PM
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waterloowarrior waterloowarrior is offline
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My guess is that the NCC will parcel the property out into smaller blocks. It could be based on the latest negotiated layout to save time, with public consultation, but not starting from scratch

They will get a lot more interest (easier to finance) and can develop incrementally instead of having one consortium in charge for decades.
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  #2767  
Old Posted Feb 28, 2019, 2:10 PM
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AuxTown AuxTown is offline
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Originally Posted by waterloowarrior View Post
My guess is that the NCC will parcel the property out into smaller blocks. It could be based on the latest negotiated layout to save time, with public consultation, but not starting from scratch

They will get a lot more interest (easier to finance) and can develop incrementally instead of having one consortium in charge for decades.
I think this would be a better option for gaining interest in developers and it might produce an end-product that is more 'natural' than a mass development with a single vision. Do you think they could parcel it out and have a number of developers building at the same time?
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  #2768  
Old Posted Feb 28, 2019, 2:18 PM
JohnnyRenton JohnnyRenton is offline
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Originally Posted by O-Town Hockey View Post
I think this would be a better option for gaining interest in developers and it might produce an end-product that is more 'natural' than a mass development with a single vision. Do you think they could parcel it out and have a number of developers building at the same time?
I don't see why not. This is the approach they are taking on the Toronto Waterfront and development is moving along at a good pace. I know that Amsterdam took the same one block at a time approach for their waterfront development as well. And as I mentioned above, if they took this approach, and started at the east end of Lebreton, where they could better connect it to growing development around Bayview, and be right next door to the Mechanicsville/Hintonburg neighborhood, they might have more developer interest (condo buyers might be a lot easier to find when you are extending an existing urban neighborhood, versus trying to build one in the middle of a field).
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  #2769  
Old Posted Feb 28, 2019, 2:48 PM
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waterloowarrior waterloowarrior is offline
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Originally Posted by O-Town Hockey View Post
I think this would be a better option for gaining interest in developers and it might produce an end-product that is more 'natural' than a mass development with a single vision. Do you think they could parcel it out and have a number of developers building at the same time?
East Bayfront in Toronto is about the same size - 55 acres. The largest parcel size is 13 acres with several smaller parcels. There are public institutions and amazing public spaces funded by all three levels of government, not just what they can negotiate from the developers.
https://waterfrontoronto.ca/nbe/portal/waterfront/Home/waterfronthome/precincts/east-bayfront

Even in Toronto's market it takes years to develop, but the projects can be built at the same time instead of waiting for a single main developer to release individual phases.
http://urbantoronto.ca/news/2016/06/east-bayfront-community-abuzz-construction-activity
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  #2770  
Old Posted Feb 28, 2019, 4:01 PM
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I think it's time for the Canada Lands Company to step-in and take over the development of Lebreton Flats.
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  #2771  
Old Posted Feb 28, 2019, 4:26 PM
lrt's friend lrt's friend is offline
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If we parcel the land out in small chunks, what will happen to public amenities?

I presume under this scenario, a Lebreton Flats arena is dead.

So, what becomes of the arena? Remains at CTC? Moves to a less transit connected site elsewhere?
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  #2772  
Old Posted Feb 28, 2019, 5:23 PM
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Originally Posted by lrt's friend View Post
If we parcel the land out in small chunks, what will happen to public amenities?

I presume under this scenario, a Lebreton Flats arena is dead.

So, what becomes of the arena? Remains at CTC? Moves to a less transit connected site elsewhere?
What is truly sad about this whole debacle is there "appears" to be well financed suitors willing to take over significant parts of this equation (i.e. the arena and team).... but process just won't allow that to happen.

Now they will probably just give up and move on... especially since the team has been eviscerated.

50 years to prepare and the NCC just allowed things to get worse. Yes, I know Melnyk is no prince... but after 50 years of planning??? really ??

We need to take a very hard look at the NCC and its "value add" to the city.
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  #2773  
Old Posted Feb 28, 2019, 6:00 PM
lrt's friend lrt's friend is offline
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What is truly sad about this whole debacle is there "appears" to be well financed suitors willing to take over significant parts of this equation (i.e. the arena and team).... but process just won't allow that to happen.

Now they will probably just give up and move on... especially since the team has been eviscerated.

50 years to prepare and the NCC just allowed things to get worse. Yes, I know Melnyk is no prince... but after 50 years of planning??? really ??

We need to take a very hard look at the NCC and its "value add" to the city.
But is this really the NCC's fault? I think others are much more to blame in this case.
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  #2774  
Old Posted Feb 28, 2019, 6:06 PM
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Melnyk and the city of Ottawa are both to blame here. It's a joke that LeBreton just sits vacant after all these years..so much untapped potential on that site. its an absolute disgrace that every party involved there have their heads up their asses and can't figure out shit!! I wonder where the Senators will move to. some, non-hockey US market for sure. shame..
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  #2775  
Old Posted Feb 28, 2019, 6:23 PM
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Originally Posted by 905er View Post
Melnyk and the city of Ottawa are both to blame here. It's a joke that LeBreton just sits vacant after all these years..so much untapped potential on that site. its an absolute disgrace that every party involved there have their heads up their asses and can't figure out shit!! I wonder where the Senators will move to. some, non-hockey US market for sure. shame..
How is the City of Ottawa to blame when they don't own the land, and they weren't involved in the negotiations? The NCC owns the land.
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  #2776  
Old Posted Feb 28, 2019, 7:41 PM
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Originally Posted by 905er View Post
Melnyk and the city of Ottawa are both to blame here. It's a joke that LeBreton just sits vacant after all these years..so much untapped potential on that site. its an absolute disgrace that every party involved there have their heads up their asses and can't figure out shit!! I wonder where the Senators will move to. some, non-hockey US market for sure. shame..
Obviously Melnyk has a few screws loose and those types of people are *very* difficult to deal with... and I agree with Rocketphish that the city (unfortunately) has nothing to do with those lands.

Point is... the NCC has had FIFTY (!!!) years to figure out a way forward, and their big shot at it has exploded into a million pieces. They MUST shoulder the lions share of the blame.

*** and by the way.. hows that (NCC led) 24 Sussex project going?? 50 years is not out of reach there either ***

I stand by my point.
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  #2777  
Old Posted Feb 28, 2019, 8:01 PM
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waterloowarrior waterloowarrior is offline
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to keep the focus of this thread on LeBreton - I created a new thread for alternative arena location discussions
http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?p=8490842
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  #2778  
Old Posted Feb 28, 2019, 8:06 PM
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Originally Posted by CityTech View Post
Yeah, this is a pretty big red flag. These are the people who generally get involved in these sorts of large scale developments. The NCC should take this a a severe indictment of its process.
Those entities typically come in as financing partners. I don't think that they often lead developments. Does this mean that those entities weren't interested in Lebreton, or just that they weren't interested in working with the proponents who were bidding?

Also, I thought Claridge dropped out partway through the process citing the fact that they had too many other projects on the go, including the other part of Lebreton.
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  #2779  
Old Posted Feb 28, 2019, 9:51 PM
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If LeBreton had been developed sooner we would have gotten something like Confederation Heights or Tunneys 2.

So I'm not sure it's really a bad thing LeBreton has taken a long time to get done.

Anyone saying the NCC are to blame for not building on the flats must surely mean the Federal government is to blame for not spending billions on putting a Departmental campus on the flats as that was the plan for decades. This is the legacy of a pull back on Gerber spending and probably Trudeau's cuts to the military post 1970s War Measures act and official defense plan update to make the Canadian Forces primary mission about domestic national security and not fighting wars. Which had many toxic effects over the years.
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  #2780  
Old Posted Feb 28, 2019, 10:45 PM
acottawa acottawa is offline
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Originally Posted by rocketphish View Post
How is the City of Ottawa to blame when they don't own the land, and they weren't involved in the negotiations? The NCC owns the land.
The city is quite delusional if it thinks it is getting a major amenity at Lebreton (an arena or anything else) without lifting a finger.
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