O-Train Line 2/4 [Stage 2 | Greenboro to Limebank/Airport] | In Service

[Multi-modal]

Also FYI I believe the GeoOttawa Trillium Line alignment has been updated. It shows the Limebank extension and the direction they are extending the existing platforms (always the path of least resistance of course - Carling is northward, Carleton northward, Mooney's Bay southward, Greenboro southward).

[Multi-modal]

Another FYI, public information session:

https://rileybrockington.ca/stage-2-lrt-public-information-session-february-28-at-6pm/

[lrt's friend]

Won't the Trillium Line being at grade be an enormous barrier for traffic and pedestrians in what is supposed to be the Riverside South town centre?

Also, how does a bus loop work at that location if there is a Limebank overpass? How do buses interact with the station and rise up to the overpass level? It seems to be a further blight on the location and a safety concern having intersections at the top of an overpass? Or are you proposing to trench the Trillium Line? Is trenching this location reasonable? I think there is a lot of leda clay in the area.

Won't creating road overpasses at every collector make the area very pedestrian unfriendly and in the long run more expensive?

I don't buy the wisdom of making it impossible to extend the Trillium Line to the Vimy Bridge. Every rail line should be extendable in the future.

I will definitely be at tonight's presentation at Jim Durrell

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by Multi-modal

Also FYI I believe the GeoOttawa Trillium Line alignment has been updated. It shows the Limebank extension and the direction they are extending the existing platforms (always the path of least resistance of course - Carling is northward, Carleton northward, Mooney's Bay southward, Greenboro southward).

Conveniently updated right after I was done updating the map on O-Train fans but I guess this gives us a chance to compare the new alignment with what they had before (until I update it again).

Why is there a pocket track at Limebank of all places? A friend of mine suggested that they might keep a train there overnight to avoid needing to dispatch a train all the way from Walkley in the mornings, but that doesn't seem very beneficial.
It also shows the tracks extending well past the platform which differs from the render. I wonder how future-proofed the station will be in case of an extension? Anyone think Stage 3 might feature an extension to Riverview as an option?


The passing track on the Airport Spur is really long now. You might as well say that 50% of that spur is double track... I think it would have been better to extend Brookfield a little more instead, but ok.
It also shows where it will be elevated, rather than just above-grade.

It could just be a georeferencing error, but I noticed that the entire alignment starting from the southern tunnel entrance is shifted eastward slightly (which would require blasting/tunnel widening). I won't get my hopes up about that.

[Multi-modal]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Won't the Trillium Line being at grade be an enormous barrier for traffic and pedestrians in what is supposed to be the Riverside South town centre?

Yes, this is why I propose either trenching or elevated through Riverside South town centre.

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Also, how does a bus loop work at that location if there is a Limebank overpass? How do buses interact with the station and rise up to the overpass level? It seems to be a further blight on the location and a safety concern having intersections at the top of an overpass? Or are you proposing to trench the Trillium Line? Is trenching this location reasonable? I think there is a lot of leda clay in the area.?

Yes, I am proposing to either elevate or trench the Trillium Line through Riverside South town centre. Limebank Road would be at-grade, so the buses would just be making two right-turns.

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Won't creating road overpasses at every collector make the area very pedestrian unfriendly and in the long run more expensive?

Yes, this is what the City is proposing (bad plan) and why I think it is VERY important to either trench or elevate the LRT through Riverside South town centre. I cannot emphasize this enough. Maybe I should have bolded that point in my original long post.

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

I don't buy the wisdom of making it impossible to extend the Trillium Line to the Vimy Bridge. Every rail line should be extendable in the future.

Agreed.

[zzptichka]

Originally Posted by Ottawaresident

An airport connection should happen in every city. But not with 2 Transfers to go anywhere. The UPS in Toronto is one ride into Union Station. Montreal's Bus runs to donwtown. Vancouver's Canada Line is 1or no transfers. In the land of nothingness, Ottawa nothing will ever get done (Airport Spur)

UPX only takes you to Union/Bloor stations, you still have to take one or two trains to get to your destination in most cases. Also in YYZ there is Airport terminal shuttle train you may need to take depending on your terminal. Think of our spur as a shuttle to the actual train if it helps

Not to mention in most cases you have to pay separately for the airport train which is often several times more expensive (35 CAD one way in Oslo lol), less frequent and just figuring out how it works would add more time to the trip for an average visitor than a simple connection on our train.

Although I wouldn't be surprised if OC Transpo decides to charge extra to ride the spur. Now that would be a fiasco.

[TransitZilla]

Originally Posted by Multi-modal

Richcraft / Morguard are planning to develop a block of land at the SE corner of Earl Armstrong and Limebank into commercial and office usees - they contend that the City's decision to raise Limebank over the rail corridor will limit the ability to provide a commercial presence on Limbank Road and severely hamper their development. They strongly prefer a rail over road option.

I'm not sure I buy why a raised Limebank will hamper their development.

It seems to be a very similar situation to the Booth Street Bridge; and in that case isn't the plan to just build the adjacent buildings so that they have entrances at the sidewalk level? Why can't they do that on Limebank?

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by zzptichka

Although I wouldn't be surprised if OC Transpo decides to charge extra to ride the spur. Now that would be a fiasco.

This was asked yesterday in the consultations and the answer is no, they won't charge extra.

[TransitZilla]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

I don't buy the wisdom of making it impossible to extend the Trillium Line to the Vimy Bridge.

What do you see in the current plan that makes such an extension impossible? The corridor continuing west to the Vimy Bridge will still exist.

Even though the station appears to be designed so that people walk around the end of the tracks to get the opposite platform, that could always be replaced with a pedestrian overpass in the future.

[Multi-modal]

Originally Posted by bradnixon

I'm not sure I buy why a raised Limebank will hamper their development.

It seems to be a very similar situation to the Booth Street Bridge; and in that case isn't the plan to just build the adjacent buildings so that they have entrances at the sidewalk level? Why can't they do that on Limebank?

While it is important to take Richcraft / Morguard's testemony with a grain of salt, I would say this:

• While you could build the buildings up to road grade, pedestrians would need to go through the buildings to get from road grade to development grade. Pedestrian connections adjacent to the buildings would require stairs or ramps. Don't forget this will eventually be required not only at Limebank, but also at two more north-south collector roads within the Riverside South Town Centre (one being directly to the east of Richcraft / Moreguard's proposal).
• I don't think its fair to compare high rise proposals adjacent to the downtown core with greenfield development in the suburbs. The amount of money that can be thrown at a problem like this by the developer is more limited in the 2nd case.

[Multi-modal]

Originally Posted by bradnixon

What do you see in the current plan that makes such an extension impossible? The corridor continuing west to the Vimy Bridge will still exist.

The intersection of the north east-west Connector Road and Main Street so close to the station makes it very difficult for the City to eventually grade separate the line by raising Main Street. I guess they could remove the intersection and carry the east-west connector roads under Main Street (like they are proposing with Limebank), but again - with all these road overpasses where is the connectivity and urbanity that Riverside South Town Centre originally (and currently in the CDP) promised.

[lrt's friend]

Once Riverside South town centre is built, are there going to be opportunities to grade separate road crossing to the west of Limebank Station to accommodate a Trillium Line extension? We are already starting to build around the transit right of way. Will we allow space for a Spratt Road grade separation to allow the Trillium Line to extend to the Vimy Bridge? Or are we going to make things so difficult that the only choice is to make this a linear park?

It seems to me that if we are expecting 100% exclusive right of way, the Trillium Line should be elevated through the central parts of Riverside South. That way, road crossings and pedestrian accesses are a lot easier. Consider that most of the Riverside South population is going to be north of the Trillium Line but a good portion of the town centre is going to be south of it. We are designing for the cheapest short-term solution without considering the long-term.

The end result will mean that the Trillium Line could make Riverside South Town Centre more auto-dependent than it should be. We will just build the same old big box development scattered amongst thousands of parking spaces where we have to drive between stores. Have we learned nothing? Rapid transit will simply be an ornament.

The other question, will there be a Park n Ride at Limebank Station?. If there is, we have just built the worst suburban garbage possible. Stores surrounded by acres of private parking surrounded by acres of public parking. That is no way to design a town centre.

[Multi-modal]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

It seems to me that if we are expecting 100% exclusive right of way, the Trillium Line should be elevated through the central parts of Riverside South. That way, road crossings and pedestrian accesses are a lot easier.

Exactly, and I think this is the core message (on this issue) that we need to communicate to the south end councillors tonight. Its not just about how we want to grade separate Limebank versus Trillium Line, its how we want to grade separate the Trillium Line versus all road / pedestrian connections throughout Riverside South town centre. Elevated through the core of Riverside South is the only option that makes sense. I will suggest that Carol Anne Meehan seems receptive to this issue based on yesterday afternoon's Council Meeting.

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

The other question, will there be a Park n Ride at Limebank Station?.

There are no plans for a Park n Ride at Limebank Station (thankfully). People will have to drive either to Riverview, Earl Armstrong, or Leitrim

[Multi-modal]

A small refinement to my proposal... the ends of the E-W Connector Roads can connect to eachother under the Trillium Line (like a "Window Street" in the City's planning jargon). That way the buses don't need to turn onto Limebank Road at all. I also put the Trillium Line above the roads to make it clear that it should be elevated.

Reminder, green = trillium line, blue = buses, dashed dark green = potential pedestrian / cycling connections between the east-west connector roads.

Short term:


Long term:

[OTSkyline]

As Riverside South grows (and I believe the introduction of LRT there will definitely help), the suburb will continue to expand, especially to the south (as its limited in the north by the greenbelt).

Earl Armstrong Rd will definitely become the Strandherd of Riverside South... hopefully a busy main street full of restaurants, shops, perhaps a few mid-rises, etc. I agree, how is this supposed to work if we build an at-grade LRT running alongside? Every road will need to go over or under the tracks through various ramps if we are to keep it grade-separated (which we definitely should)...

Building LRT there a-la Sky-Train would also leave the opportunity to potentially extend it to River or even Barrhaven one day.

[Multi-modal]

Originally Posted by OTSkyline

Building LRT there a-la Sky-Train would also leave the opportunity to potentially extend it to River or even Barrhaven one day.

A great example of how this could work is between Metrotown and Patterson station, on the Expo Line in Vancouver. Not necessarily the scale of development in that area, but how there are two roads flanking a raised rail line.

For affordability sake we might not want to raise it everywhere throughout Riverside South... but within the Town Centre its a must IMO

[PHrenetic]

Good Day.

Just perusing GeoOttawa....

1) It indicates the track under the 417 is doubled, all the way from Bayview right up to just north of Beech.

2) As well as the pocket track at Limebank..... it indicates a diamond-crossover between the pocket (just east of Limebank) and the station (just west of Limebank),
right on top of, or right on (highly doubtful), or right underneath, Limebank - ? an indication of grade-separated RoW ?

Questions Questions Questions !

[lrt's friend]

I find it odd that a good portion of the so called Main Street is going to face a large community park. Is that good design? I presume that this Main Street will be the first obstacle blocking a Trillium Line extension if both are designed to be at grade. How can any street be pedestrian friendly if it is an overpass with nothing accessible to pedestrians for whole length of an overpass?

I find everything odd that we are trying to wedge a grade separated rail line into a community that was designed to be served by a streetcar-like service where the lack of grade separation brought rail closer to the people. Putting grade separations everywhere just blocks local access to almost everything.

Any gains from grade separations are lost by making the whole community less accessible. But, of course, we have no choice given that we have selected rail equipment designed for regional rail

[Ottawaresident]

Originally Posted by PHrenetic

Good Day.

Just perusing GeoOttawa....

1) It indicates the track under the 417 is doubled, all the way from Bayview right up to just north of Beech.

2) As well as the pocket track at Limebank..... it indicates a diamond-crossover between the pocket (just east of Limebank) and the station (just west of Limebank),
right on top of, or right on (highly doubtful), or right underneath, Limebank - ? an indication of grade-separated RoW ?

Questions Questions Questions !

Which track? I have never heard of anything under the 417!

By Limebank do you mean stations road and if road where? Also, I forgot where the Limebank Station is going to be.

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by PHrenetic

1) It indicates the track under the 417 is doubled, all the way from Bayview right up to just north of Beech.

That's been the case since the beginning. They're just (finally) making use of the already-widened corridor there (since there used to be a second track that stretched all the way down to near Beech).