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  #1581  
Old Posted Feb 26, 2019, 2:34 PM
Multi-modal Multi-modal is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J.OT13 View Post
Just realized the City's route goes through the parking lot. WTF are they thinking?
I actually do know the answer to this... Section 5.2.2.5 of Parsons' Baseline BRT Functional Design Report reads:

Quote:
5.2.2.5 Alignment in Accordance with Centrepointe Main Street Design Concept
In Sept. 2005, Ottawa City Council approved a plan to implement the vision of Ottawa 20/20. Part of this plan included the redevelopment of City-owned lands, specifically the Centrepointe Town Centre in the vicinity of Baseline Station. A plan to guide the development of the Town Centre was completed on November 7, 2008. A Preliminary Concept Plan was created that includes a north-south mixed-use main street [following the City's parking lot aisle], the potential for higher density office and residential uses along the southern edge of Baseline Road, and a formal piazza central to the site with commercial uses bordering it.

As Baseline Station will be redeveloped to accommodate the Western LRT Terminus Station, it was important to consider the ultimate objectives of the Centrepointe area when developing the Recommended Plan. As such, the ultimate recommended plan, as shown in Section 6, is to integrate median buses as a key aspect of the future north-south mixed-use mainstreet, as a complete street with wide sidewalks and cycling facilities as shown in Figure 5-9, below.

Should the development of these lands take longer than expected, the BRBRT will use the existing north-south BRT transit connection until such time where development may proceed. This interim solution is also shown in the Functional Design in Section 6.
For more information, see this link:
http://ottawa.ca/calendar/ottawa/citycouncil/trc/2008/11-19/ACS2008-ICS-DCM-0007.htm

So they plan to "integrate median buses as a key aspect of the future north-south [Centrepointe] mixed-use mainstreet". OK, fine... the City wants to re-develop their parking lot and they want BRT to run up their new "main street" because it makes it "complete"... BUT they don't propose any stops on this new north-south main street, so what is the point!??
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  #1582  
Old Posted Feb 26, 2019, 2:37 PM
Multi-modal Multi-modal is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Eade View Post
It is likely that, once Algonquin is finished with their construction, the bus routing will revert to traveling through the campus and the bus will, once again, travel along College to get to the station.
I doubt it... the baseline BRT plans have very permanent looking BRT facilities on the Navaho Drive (the part bordering College Square). It would be hard after Baseline BRT facilities are built to revert back to the more southerly Navaho Drive piece, Service Road, and College Avenue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Eade View Post
Now the City is pretty much locked into having the station to the south of College.
Why are they locked in? What's preventing them from changing this (other than planning / design momentum) in your opinion?
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  #1583  
Old Posted Feb 26, 2019, 5:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Multi-modal View Post
That would be a sensible option, but no... this is what they plan to do
Where did you get that routing from? The plans I have (not sure where they came from but dated 2016) show the following routing, which is basically what Multi-modal is suggesting.


(click to get a larger image)
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  #1584  
Old Posted Feb 26, 2019, 5:56 PM
Multi-modal Multi-modal is offline
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Originally Posted by roger1818 View Post
Where did you get that routing from? The plans I have (not sure where they came from but dated 2016) show the following routing, which is basically what Multi-modal is suggesting.
What I'm claiming the City's routing is comes from the February 2017 Baseline BRT EA Report + Stage 2 plans for Baseline Station.

I'll show you... sorry about the large files, this isn't available on the City's website anymore... you know what, I'll just post the imgur links, its too big to put in this forum.

https://imgur.com/xj67QIo
https://imgur.com/XXTiMqG
https://imgur.com/pfwfNxa
https://imgur.com/CTAleuk
https://imgur.com/TTii1KA
https://imgur.com/KMvJZmQ
https://imgur.com/tADr80Y
https://imgur.com/V0hUtsf
https://imgur.com/FbHLvrn

Last edited by Multi-modal; Feb 26, 2019 at 6:02 PM. Reason: Links weren't working
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  #1585  
Old Posted Feb 26, 2019, 6:21 PM
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J.OT13 J.OT13 is offline
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Caroline Mehan was on Ottawa Today with Mark Sutcliffe today, February 26 at 11 a.m. According to her, we cannot eliminate stations or any parts of the proposed project (like cutting out the east as many have suggested) to bring down the cost. Doing that would trigger a new competition and we would start from scratch (9 minute mark).

https://www.1310news.com/audio/ottawa-today/

That wasn't discussed as part of the interview, but no doubt Council would have the option if sign one contract, but not the other. Of course eliminating the Confederation contract would leave us with nothing but a stub in the center of the city and there is no rational for canceling the Trillium contract because it came in on budget, not to mention the backlash from the south-end that would suffer through a second cancellation in 13 years.

Going back to tender a shorter line could result in new proposals more expensive that the first for less return.
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  #1586  
Old Posted Feb 26, 2019, 6:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Multi-modal View Post
What I'm claiming the City's routing is comes from the February 2017 Baseline BRT EA Report + Stage 2 plans for Baseline Station.

I'll show you... sorry about the large files, this isn't available on the City's website anymore... you know what, I'll just post the imgur links, its too big to put in this forum.

https://imgur.com/xj67QIo
https://imgur.com/XXTiMqG
https://imgur.com/pfwfNxa
https://imgur.com/CTAleuk
https://imgur.com/TTii1KA
https://imgur.com/KMvJZmQ
https://imgur.com/tADr80Y
https://imgur.com/V0hUtsf
https://imgur.com/FbHLvrn
Interesting that they changed it. The old plan was much better.
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  #1587  
Old Posted Feb 26, 2019, 8:02 PM
Ottawaresident Ottawaresident is offline
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Why doesn't the city just build the BRT down Navaho? The existing infrastructure? Cost? And why are they so incompetent ?
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  #1588  
Old Posted Feb 27, 2019, 11:34 AM
OtrainUser OtrainUser is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J.OT13 View Post
Caroline Mehan was on Ottawa Today with Mark Sutcliffe today, February 26 at 11 a.m. According to her, we cannot eliminate stations or any parts of the proposed project (like cutting out the east as many have suggested) to bring down the cost. Doing that would trigger a new competition and we would start from scratch (9 minute mark).

https://www.1310news.com/audio/ottawa-today/

That wasn't discussed as part of the interview, but no doubt Council would have the option if sign one contract, but not the other. Of course eliminating the Confederation contract would leave us with nothing but a stub in the center of the city and there is no rational for canceling the Trillium contract because it came in on budget, not to mention the backlash from the south-end that would suffer through a second cancellation in 13 years.

Going back to tender a shorter line could result in new proposals more expensive that the first for less return.

Exactly this. Even though its 1 billion more than we were originally told its still a good price for what is being built. No point in cancelling what is probably still reasonably priced especially when the trillium extension is still on budget. If we want to grow ridership then the capital costs to do it wont be cheap, its never is.
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  #1589  
Old Posted Feb 27, 2019, 12:41 PM
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Mayor Watson says it's 'asinine' to muse about not building Stage 2 LRT, which would be $1.2B more than previously estimated

Jon Willing, Ottawa Citizen
Updated: February 26, 2019


Mayor Jim Watson says it’s “absolutely asinine” to consider not proceeding with Stage 2 LRT, while one of his council foes is questioning if he would fulfil his re-election promise at any cost.

Watson told reporters in Toronto on Tuesday that the public is “very much on board” with the Stage 2 program, which now has a price tag of $4.6 billion, up from the $3.4 billion council had been told it would cost to extend tracks to Moodie Drive, Algonquin College, Trim Road and Riverside South.

The mayor, who was at Queen’s Park in a 20-member delegation from Ottawa to have meetings with provincial cabinet ministers, said the city isn’t blowing the Stage 2 budget because, according to him, there isn’t a budget yet.

“I think there has been a lot of confusion when people talk about, ‘It’s already over budget.’ No, no. It’s over the estimate. That’s a big difference between an estimate and a budget. The budget is what we set,” Watson said. “When we go out to tender, we have a rough idea of what the bids are going to (be), but we don’t have an exact idea until the document is opened, the seal is opened.

“The notion that we are going to go and ask the public, ‘Well, why don’t we just not have Phase 2?’ is absolutely asinine. You have to have Phase 2 in order for the system to work, otherwise it’s a stunted 12-kilometre system that is going to clog in the Tunney’s Pasture area and Blair station.”

Back in Ottawa, Gloucester-Southgate Coun. Diane Deans couldn’t believe Watson would so easily buy into a transit project that would cost $1.2 billion more than projected.

“Those are strong words from the mayor, especially a mayor who has liked to portray himself as a penny-pincher,” Deans said at city hall. “I still think it has to be value for money and it can’t be LRT at any cost. It has to make financial sense and we have to be able to pay the bill at the end of the day.

“We have to be able to afford it, and I think we need to ask the taxpayers if they’re still on board. After all, they’re footing the bill for this.”

Council on Wednesday is scheduled to hear from public delegates about the Stage 2 proposal. On March 6, council will vote on awarding the contracts and begin construction this year.

Stage 1, the $2.1-billion, 12.5-km line between Tunney’s Pasture and Blair station, isn’t open yet. It’s supposed to be ready for the city at the end of March, but no one at city hall with any authority believes the Rideau Transit Group will deliver the LRT system by that time.

Stage 2 builds off Stage 1. The Confederation Line LRT will be extended west from Tunney’s Pasture and east from Blair station, while the Trillium Line will be extended to Riverside South and the Ottawa International Airport.

The Stage 2 program was a cornerstone of Watson’s re-election campaign in last fall’s municipal vote. Watson noted Tuesday he received a “strong mandate” from residents, winning just over 71 per cent of the vote.

Watson said the city’s expanded scope of the Stage 2 program will save money in the long run. He also defended the affordability of the project.

The city will need to borrow $700 million more than originally anticipated for transit projects over 30 years.

“It’s a pretty good time to debenture,” Watson said. “We still have a triple-A credit rating … and this is the time to do it when interest rates are relatively low.”

Future users of the transit system should help pay for the asset through long-term debt repayment, he said.

On the other hand, Deans said residents are concerned about the amount of debt the city has been taking on. The city needs to consider how borrowing another $700 million for LRT will impact other infrastructure projects, she said.

The provincial and federal governments have committed about $2.4 billion for Stage 2. Watson said the city won’t be asking for additional funds.

— With files from Brian Lilley

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https://ottawacitizen.com/news/local-new...d-be-1-2b-more-than-previously-estimated
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  #1590  
Old Posted Feb 27, 2019, 3:36 PM
Ottawaresident Ottawaresident is offline
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Well hopefully, but I doubt anything will happen in this land of never.
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  #1591  
Old Posted Feb 27, 2019, 3:56 PM
TransitZilla TransitZilla is offline
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If we're going to cut anything, my vote would be the Moodie extension. Bayshore is a more natural transfer point anyway since it is a place people actually want to go and there is other connecting bus service.

The Moodie extension is a scope increase that the city is solely paying for, not other levels of government.

Or maybe ask the province if they're willing to pay for the Moodie extension instead of the Airport Link, and drop the Airport Link. The city could probably buy some special buses with luggage racks and operate a shuttle service from the Airport to Hurdman for less than the increased operating costs of the Airport Link, and service would be just as effective.
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  #1592  
Old Posted Feb 27, 2019, 4:01 PM
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Quote:
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Well hopefully, but I doubt anything will happen in this land of never.
Hopefully what? Could you please reference (or better yet quote) the post you are replying to?
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  #1593  
Old Posted Feb 27, 2019, 4:04 PM
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Originally Posted by bradnixon View Post
If we're going to cut anything, my vote would be the Moodie extension. Bayshore is a more natural transfer point anyway since it is a place people actually want to go and there is other connecting bus service.

The Moodie extension is a scope increase that the city is solely paying for, not other levels of government.

Or maybe ask the province if they're willing to pay for the Moodie extension instead of the Airport Link, and drop the Airport Link. The city could probably buy some special buses with luggage racks and operate a shuttle service from the Airport to Hurdman for less than the increased operating costs of the Airport Link, and service would be just as effective.
Except, from what I gather, the Moodie extension is costing practically nothing. Expropriating the land needed for a Bus transfer terminal at Bayshore would cost almost as much as the extension to Moodie. At Moodie, they can borrow the land from the NCC.
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  #1594  
Old Posted Feb 28, 2019, 5:21 PM
Richard Eade Richard Eade is offline
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Perhaps people could actually read the title of the thread that they are posting in before they hit the Submit button. If what you have typed would be more appropriate in another thread, then please copy it and move to the proper thread. It will make it a lot easier for everyone.
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  #1595  
Old Posted Feb 28, 2019, 5:27 PM
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Thanks Richard... I just moved over two dozen posts about the Trillium Line to the right thread
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  #1596  
Old Posted Mar 3, 2019, 8:30 PM
PHrenetic PHrenetic is offline
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Good Day.

Along the same line as to my posts in the Trillium Line Stage 2 thread ref: GeoOttawa,

The GeoOttawa plotting for Algonquin station seems to show the station being situated to the south end of the tunnel (as previously noted),
but now also that in furthur detail,
that the main tracks would appear to be using the two outer 'tunnels', with the platform occupying the larger 'center' tunnel,
and that to the north of the platform (in the 'center' tunnel) would appear to be two stub-end pocket tracks for storage, switching off the east-side north-bound track.

An Interesting tid-bit !
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  #1597  
Old Posted Mar 4, 2019, 4:10 AM
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Shut up and sign: keep trains on time but public in the dark?

Kelly Egan, Ottawa Citizen
Updated: March 3, 2019


The plans for Stage 2 of LRT released a few days ago have rattled some neighbourhoods, but here at Citizen/Sun headquarters, we were genuinely touched.

Touched, as in — “the THING is TOUCHING us” — with its tentacles landing on our lawn on Baxter Road.

I looked closely at the drawings for the proposed Queensview station, which is tight up against the north side of the Queensway, between Woodroffe and Pinecrest. Snaking from the station is a long overhead walkway that crosses the highway, and heads right for my desk by the window, whereupon it makes a sharp turn west, but not before I can wave at everyone on their way to IKEA.

How did we not hear the train a’ coming?

And so say several city councillors: there isn’t enough time between the release of new Stage 2 details on Feb. 22 and the scheduled voting date of March 6 for the public to be properly engaged.

Set aside the jump in cost from $3.4 billion to $4.6 billion, as though $1.2 billion is just a wee rounding error.

Stage 2 is much more extensive than Stage 1, the piece that really gives the city a rail “system” — so that eight of 10 residents will live within five kilometres of service. To do so, 44 kms of track are being added, along with 24 stations, some of them new and not widely known.

Look at Cleary. For the longest time, people along that western stretch, at Richmond Road and Cleary Avenue, were told a strip mall at 747 Richmond was being expropriated and torn down to make way for an LRT station.



The station is now planned across the street, in the Byron Linear Park. It is an open-air model, with a covered entry point that ushers passengers down a staircase to meet trains underground.

“Entry point” is a weak description. The station is 10 metres wide and about as long as a football field.

As late as January, the Citizen was reporting the strip mall, home to a handful of well-loved eateries, was to be torn down to make way for an LRT “station.”

Not any more.

“The City was required to purchase the property at the intersection of Cleary Avenue and Richmond Road, where the alignment enters into the Richmond-Byron corridor,” says the briefing document.

“Reducing the area, previously affected by the station footprint, allows for a more buildable site above the train alignment. This will help in building a transit-oriented design that is more feasible and desirable.”



More desirable? If you say so, though it is hardly the moment to rub salt in the wounds of hard-working families that have lost their locations and long-standing local relationships.

These are the kinds of changes that have led Bay Ward Coun. Theresa Kavanagh and neighbouring Kitchissippi Ward Coun. Jeff Leiper to quickly schedule a public meeting for Monday at 7 p.m. at First Unitarian Congregation on Cleary, with LRT planners in attendance.

There are, of course, valid reasons to move the station onto Byron, just as there is sound rationale along the 44-km route. It doesn’t mean they got everything right. And you don’t meaningfully consult an entire city in a fortnight.

Leiper was aware a working group with community input had its eye on moving the station, because it’s cheaper, avoids an ugly, above-ground “fan plant” needed in the first design and improves the track alignment.

“The fact that they have decided to actually move ahead and do that is something that now needs to be discussed more thoroughly by the larger community,” the councillor said Friday, “and 11 days is not enough time to do that.”

Kavanagh will eventually have seven LRT stops in her ward, which she emphasizes will be a good thing.

“It’s a game-changer for our ward. It’s something really important and people do want it.”

She too is unhappy with the “sticker shock” of the Stage 2 budget and the short consultation period before councillors will be asked to approve the biggest expenditure in the history of the city.

“The messages I’m getting from people is that they’re feeling the same as me, pretty annoyed that the price tag and the short decision-making time.”

There is, of course, an irony too rich to overlook.

The mayor and leading city staff have stressed that there is some urgency is signing the deal, because cost and contract commitments with these building consortiums need to be locked in, or everything changes.

As a city, we have 13 days to sign and seal the contract for Stage 2, but the builders of Stage 1 can miss two deadlines, probably three, with a slap on the wrist in “ready-when-it’s-ready” land?

So we ride in the caboose, writing cheques, waving at trains that one day come.

To contact Kelly Egan, please call 613-726-5896 or send an email.

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Twitter: @KellyEganColumn

https://ottawacitizen.com/news/local-news/egan-keeping-the-trains-on-time-the-public-in-the-dark
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  #1598  
Old Posted Mar 4, 2019, 6:42 PM
Ottawaresident Ottawaresident is offline
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The Queensview station ... look incredibly squished. Also, the merge that I heard would be elevated whould be underground. The bridge and the section around it is one of my favorite areas on the trail network.
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  #1599  
Old Posted Mar 5, 2019, 12:44 AM
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Council going into a $4.6B LRT decision not knowing when its $2.1B decision will bear fruit

Jon Willing, Ottawa Citizen
Updated: March 4, 2019


City council is under financial and political pressure this week to approve $4.6 billion more in LRT spending while not knowing if a $2.1-billion investment of government money will produce a decent transit system.

The city didn’t want to be in this position, asking council to ink Stage 2 deals to expand the rail network without having Stage 1 up and running.

But it’s going to happen Wednesday, and councillors have to decide if they have enough faith in much of the current LRT infrastructure to commit taxpayers for decades. It won’t be a unanimous vote.

Some councillors told this newspaper on Monday that they want to go full-steam ahead. Others still have questions. At least one will oppose awarding Stage 2 contracts.

Council members on Tuesday will first receive an update on what’s happening with Stage 1 LRT being constructed by Rideau Transit Group. The meeting of the finance and economic development committee on will likely confirm that RTG will miss a third handover deadline, the current one being March 31.

The focus since the beginning of the year has been on the 34 Alstom Citadis Spirit trains. They have been in various stages of completion, and at last check, nowhere near being a full fleet of operational vehicles. The winter capabilities of the trains have also been called into question, most recently in a CBC Ottawa story citing an internal report.

The city has a deal with RTG to acquire 38 additional Alstom trains at $8.9 million each as part of the Stage 2 expansion.

The Stage 2 project would become the largest infrastructure endeavour in the city’s history. The $4.6-billion project — $1.2 billion more than estimated before the bids came in — would extend the Confederation Line LRT to Trim Road, Algonquin College and Moodie Drive, while extending the Trillium Line to Limebank Road and the Ottawa International Airport. The LRT expansion would be constructed by Kiewit and Vinci, and the Trillium Line expansion would be constructed by SNC-Lavalin.

What makes the decision on Stage 2 particularly difficult for councillors is that Stage 1 between Tunney’s Pasture and Blair Station isn’t much of a transit line on its own. It’s only worth the city’s investment if it continues to extend the tracks.

For Mayor Jim Watson, moving forward with Stage 2 has become an either-or argument: either pay to build now or pay more later, and either get LRT closer to Barrhaven and Kanata now or wait for who knows how much longer.

The vibe around city hall is that there are more councillors who want to plow through with the Stage 2 vision than want to pause the city’s dream of LRT expansion.

This newspaper on Monday contacted all of the current 22 ward councillors (Rideau-Rockcliffe ward will get a new councillor in April after a byelection) to gauge their confidence levels in approving Stage 2 when there are still questions about the operations of Stage 1. Nine councillors responded.

“This is a huge vote of confidence in our future as a city of one million that is booming,” Barrhaven Coun. Jan Harder said. “I intend to cast my vote to continue building our city. Stage 2 to Baseline (at Algonquin College) means LRT to Barrhaven.”

Kanata South Coun. Allan Hubley said he doesn’t think the snow on the LRT line will be a serous issue because, if necessary, trains will run a regular schedule overnight to keep the tracks clear.

“I don’t like that we are in this spot due to RTG delays but I also know the cost to delay is more than the risk associated to moving ahead,” Hubley said. “I also realize how close we are to launch and have confidence in their ability to overcome the remaining challenges quickly.”

Orléans Coun. Matthew Luloff said he has concerns about timelines, winter operations, accessibility and park-and-ride capacity, but the city needs Stage 2 “and I want it done right.”

“We can’t put this cat back in the bag,” Luloff said. “I have a responsibility to get LRT to Trim and I take that responsibility very seriously.”

In supporting Stage 2, Knoxdale-Merivale Coun. Keith Egli brought up the 2006 council decision to cancel the north-south LRT contract, resulting in costly court settlements with the contracted builders.

“The costs and delay of not proceeding are very significant,” Egli said. “We have had a previous council turn down an LRT proposal at significant cost to the taxpayer. I do not want to be part of a second one making the same mistake.”

Some councillors want more assurances from city staff before voting on Stage 2.

Rideau-Vanier Coun. Mathieu Fleury said LRT will modernize the city’s transit system, and while Stage 1 has been delayed, residents have yet to experience the “upside” of the rail line.

“Many questions remain,” Fleury said. “I believe some will be answered tomorrow at (the finance committee meeting), and I will certainly have some questions of my own at council this Wednesday.”

River Coun. Riley Brockington admitted to some anxiety approving a multibillion-dollar city-transforming project, but said he likes the Stage 2 plan and understands the reasons for the new price.

“However, when you throw into the mix the fact that LRT Phase 1 has not yet opened, there is no real true sense of how well LRT Phase 1 works, the murkiness of SNC-Lavalin and questions start piling up,” Brockington said. “Every councillor should be in attendance tomorrow at (the finance committee meeting) and there should be no outstanding questions come Wednesday before a vote is taken.”

On the other side of the council divide, Capital Coun. Shawn Menard said he won’t vote for the Stage 2 contracts.

“Too rushed and very little accountability and transparency in this process,” Menard said. “We need a pause to consider all of the risks this presents for residents of Ottawa.”

“I do not have the information I require to make an informed and sound decision on Stage 2 at this time,” Somerset Coun. Catherine McKenney said, noting the “alarming” revelations that have been reported about how the trains operate in the winter.

There’s also appetite for giving council more time before making such a major decision, especially since the recommendations for the Stage 2 contracts and the ultimate design were only released Feb. 22.

“I absolutely want light rail, but I would like to see council have a few more days to ask questions so we can make the most informed decision,” Gloucester-South Nepean Coun. Carol Anne Meehan said. “Given what is happening with Phase 1, I and other councillors should be allowed to ask the question, ‘Why should we believe what we are being told?’”

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twitter.com/JonathanWilling

https://ottawacitizen.com/news/local-new...g-when-its-2-1b-decision-will-bear-fruit
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  #1600  
Old Posted Mar 5, 2019, 1:11 AM
kmcamp kmcamp is offline
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I do have one question, I thought the deadline is due to the trillium line contract. Aren't the two contracts independent?
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