Philadelphia Transportation Thread

[skyscraper]

Originally Posted by Skintreesnail

investing in a TBM would make sense I guess if they had solid expansion plans, like the blvd subway or patco extension, but they don't as far as I'm aware. It feels more like they're trying to undermine the idea of the extension by putting such a high price tag on it. I'd be interested if anyone has insight into the different methods of tunnel construction, but from what I've read cut and cover is significantly less. Even if the majority of the cost is station-related, they only have one station planned. It just seems strange to me.

also they should go with one of the 2-station options: one of the stations is in the commercial office district, and one in the industrial district. maybe if they do cut and cover, they'd be able to afford both stations.
the blue option seems best for that; the office district station is closer to most of the offices than the pink option.

[mcgrath618]

I just saw what was either the CSX Geometry Train or, more likely, the CSX Business Train go over the High Line today. Anyone know more about this?

[Parkway]

Originally Posted by mcgrath618

I just saw what was either the CSX Geometry Train or, more likely, the CSX Business Train go over the High Line today. Anyone know more about this?

I don't know anything but I wish I did. I can see the High Line from my office.

[mcgrath618]

http://www.septa.org/rebuilding/news/route1-closure-2019.html
Looks like they're finally putting in the new bridge at Wawa.

[mcgrath618]

It's PATCO's 50th anniversary today!
Fares are the same as they were in 1969, with basic fares at $0.30.

[mcgrath618]

SEPTA's billion-dollar plan for new trolleys takes a step forward
https://www.philly.com/philly/business/t...rolleys-make-ada-compliant-20180111.html

$1 Billion? I feel like that that's a bit high...

[Busy Bee]

No that sounds about right. The article states half that cost for the new streetcar rolling stock, and that seems right in line with prevailing costs elsewhere of ~3,000,000 per light rail vehicle. The other costs will go towards quite involved physical infrastructure modifications to speed up the system with proper level boarding platforms and new streetscape around the stops. Honestly I would think the number if anything would be higher, it's quite the neccesary investment. Can't wait for it to begin.

[Skintreesnail]

Originally Posted by mcgrath618

SEPTA's billion-dollar plan for new trolleys takes a step forward
https://www.philly.com/philly/business/t...rolleys-make-ada-compliant-20180111.html

$1 Billion? I feel like that that's a bit high...

This is good news, I had been reading some things about the turnpike lawsuit that made it seem like this would be delayed. the cost is high, but the system really needs the upgrade. Having something more like light rail with spaced out stops (similar to Boston's green line) makes a lot of sense. the trolley tunnel really provides west Philly with some great transit. Even if the trolley is delayed at the surface, once the tunnel is hit you get to center city in no time. Too bad there's nothing similar for the rest of the city. They could do something similar with the city branch tunnel for north Philly.

[hammersklavier]

Originally Posted by mcgrath618

SEPTA's billion-dollar plan for new trolleys takes a step forward
https://www.philly.com/philly/business/t...rolleys-make-ada-compliant-20180111.html

$1 Billion? I feel like that that's a bit high...

The infrastructure upgrades are also a significant part of the project. But I can't help but think that reducing the overall vehicle count rather goes against the whole idea of increasing capacity (even if the new vehicles are larger). As someone who uses the 10 on a more-or-less daily basis as it is, I can tell you that its frequency can get quite iffy at times...

Anyway, trying to pull some images out of the article:


Bumpout design 1 -- This would probably be used on the narrowest streets the trolley runs along (e.g. Lansdowne Ave)


Bumpout design 2 (with bike lanes directed around the bumpouts) -- This is probably going to be the typical design, as Baltimore, Lancaster, Chester, and Woodland all have bike lanes on them IIRC


Carstop design 1 -- This will probably be used on Girard from Front to Broad


Carstop design 2 -- This would look amazing on Girard in Fishtown

[Skintreesnail]

Originally Posted by hammersklavier

But I can't help but think that reducing the overall vehicle count rather goes against the whole idea of increasing capacity (even if the new vehicles are larger). As someone who uses the 10 on a more-or-less daily basis as it is, I can tell you that its frequency can get quite iffy at times...

Yeah, I was kind of skeptical about the reduced number of cars too. Maybe they're thinking the reduced number of stops will speed it up enough to make up the difference, but 39 cars seems like an awful lot to give up.

[Busy Bee]

I would not be the slightest bit surprised though if the trolley contract includes options for future cars as well. Something along the lines of at the tail end of deliveries SEPTA could option for 30 additional vehicles... something like that.

[Skintreesnail]

Originally Posted by mcgrath618

SEPTA's billion-dollar plan for new trolleys takes a step forward
https://www.philly.com/philly/business/t...rolleys-make-ada-compliant-20180111.html

$1 Billion? I feel like that that's a bit high...

I just noticed the article was from last Jan. So I guess the turnpike lawsuit is going to be a problem. Sigh...

[Delthayre]

Originally Posted by Skintreesnail

I just noticed the article was from last Jan. So I guess the turnpike lawsuit is going to be a problem. Sigh...

Yes. Barring legislative action, should the lawsuit be decided in favor of the truckers associations, SEPTA would be very significantly short on funding until it begins receiving vehicle sales tax revenue beginning in fiscal year 2022-2023, per § 1506(c)(3.4) of Title 74 of the Pennsylvania Code, as amended by Act 89 of 2013. (Funding at that point will still be slightly less than originally envisioned as the Turnpike is still scheduled to transfer $ 50 million annually from that point, which it presumably will not if the judge rules against the Commonwealth) The authority has begun stopping work on projects in response, as listed in the article.

Originally Posted by Jason Laughlin in the Philadelphia Inquirer on February 25th, 2019

SEPTA officials put almost 40 improvement projects on hold this month as it awaits the outcome of a lawsuit that could slash a third of its capital budget by this summer.
Construction that is underway is continuing, but design work on 21 projects has stopped. Those stalled include high-profile work such as the $1 billion plan to modernize the trolley network with new vehicles, a $59 million renovation of the transit hub beneath City Hall, and work on stations at Secane, Noble, Tasker-Morris, and Villanova. Purchasing for 16 other projects has also stopped.

...

List of postponed projects

...

Do not start design

...

Trolley modernization

[Skintreesnail]

WTF^^ that's a long list of projects impacted. The bridges are the most worrisome to me. Some are in pretty bad shape I think. It seems like truckers should be supporting rail projects because it takes cars off the road. Also, PA isn't even in the top 10 highest toll states:

https://ezfreightfactoring.com/blog/expensive-toll-roads-united-states

[City Wide]

Even if SEPTA wins the current lawsuit I still don't know where $1B for upgrading existing service is going to come from. Are the Feds going to come through with big bucks. If this plan does go forward my guess is that SEPTA will take one of it's lines, say the #34 since it isn't too long, and try to cobble together funding to redo that line as a demonstration model.
One way or another the trolleys are coming to the end of their service life so they'll need to be replaced or rebuilt (which SEPTA has already done once before with the present model) in the near future. I wonder how much infrastructure changes would be required to run the new style trolleys on the present lines; things like turning radius and entrance into the tunnel?

[electricron]

Originally Posted by City Wide

One way or another the trolleys are coming to the end of their service life so they'll need to be replaced or rebuilt (which SEPTA has already done once before with the present model) in the near future. I wonder how much infrastructure changes would be required to run the new style trolleys on the present lines; things like turning radius and entrance into the tunnel?

The design specifications released for the new trolleys lists minimum turning radius of 34 feet, which is achievable with modern streetcars (I'm not including larger light rail vehicles). The key factor in any vehicle design for tighter turning radius is how far the wheel axels (in this case trucks or bogies) are apart.
Modern streetcar articulate designs allow adding trucks keeping this one dimension less than to equal to older non articulate streetcar designs.

[Skintreesnail]

If they can get a billion for the KOP extension (which doesn't appear to be on the chopping block), I would hope they can do the same for the trolleys. The NHSL daily ridership less than each of the subway-surface trolley lines alone:

https://septa.org/strategic-plan/reports/route-statistics.pdf

The KOP extension is definitely needed and will drive the ridership way up/help with road congestion, but the trolleys are just as important. And there're some safety-related projects (bridges) that are getting deferred that I would think would be more important. There was some more news about the lawsuit yesterday:
https://www.phillymag.com/news/2019/02/27/septa-turnpike-lawsuit/

Hopefully that "obscure" federal law that NY was able to use to dismiss their suit can be applied in this case. It's still going to end up delaying some much-needed improvements.

In other news, SEPTA is working on some new maps:
http://www.septa.org/frequency/img/2019-full-frequency-map.pdf
http://www.septa.org/frequency/img/2019-high-frequency-map.pdf

Philly Voice article:
https://www.phillyvoice.com/septa-introduces-two-new-bus-map-concepts-feedback/

[Parkway]

Originally Posted by Skintreesnail

Yeah, I was kind of skeptical about the reduced number of cars too. Maybe they're thinking the reduced number of stops will speed it up enough to make up the difference, but 39 cars seems like an awful lot to give up.

If the cars hold twice as many people and you shift from 5 to 7 minute headways during the peak you are still seeing a big increase in overall capacity while freeing up operating funds to increase frequency during the off-peak and on weekends. That increased frequency combined with faster rides (due to fewer stops) should, in theory, drive a ridership increase.

[mcgrath618]

Atlantic City Line to return May 24th
https://6abc.com/travel/atlantic-city-rail-line-to-resume-service-on-may-24/5160150/

[Busy Bee]

Originally Posted by electricron

The design specifications released for the new trolleys lists minimum turning radius of 34 feet, which is achievable with modern streetcars (I'm not including larger light rail vehicles). The key factor in any vehicle design for tighter turning radius is how far the wheel axels (in this case trucks or bogies) are apart.
Modern streetcar articulate designs allow adding trucks keeping this one dimension less than to equal to older non articulate streetcar designs.

Yes, Philly's tight turns guarantee a minimum 3 bogie tram/trolley, likely 4.