HomeDiagramsDatabaseMapsForum About
     

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Global Projects & Construction > City Compilations


Reply

 
Thread Tools Display Modes
     
     
  #19421  
Old Posted Feb 19, 2019, 11:16 PM
City Wide City Wide is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 1,627
Quote:
Originally Posted by McBane View Post
Bottom line: zoning laws should reflect what's best for the city as a whole, now and for future generations. These decisions should not be dictated by the preferences of residents who are currently living in a specific neighborhood (as if they'll live forever in their current homes). And what's best for the city should be determined by professional city planners, not politicians who only look as far as the next election.

I hope I'm not becoming one of 'them'-----but I'm old enough to remember the good old days when the experts that bought us urban renewal, were quite certain that they were doing what was best for the City, then and into the future. Urban renewal was mostly urban disaster. I realize I might be sounding like someone who wears a tin foil hat and worries about the deep state, (both false as far as I can tell!) but I wouldn't recommend ever completely trusting professionals. I was a teenager in the 60's growing up in a older neighborhood in a Ohio city and I clearly remember when the City fathers opened up the hood and with it came a flood of gas stations and strip stores that were replacing good housing stock and for a variety of reasons, including the above, the area mostly died and now is maybe 60% empty or torn down. All I'm saying is decisions made by well meaning professionals can have negative results.

From my post #19409 last week in this thread, "So, I guess what I'm saying is if more construction in a area doesn't help control housing cost increases, then why push SH residents to change? Who does that change help----I'd say the developers first and foremost and then down the list I guess one could say the City benefits from a increase tax base, but unfortunately in this City I think you'd be hard pressed to find a room full of people who think the City gov't does even just a 'ok' job with the funds that we the people turn over to them. The City seems to be very good at finding expensive ways of not doing very much (thank you J. Blackwell). I wish the answer was as simple as opening up zoning, but I don't think the evidence shows that at all." If the people who live in SH (not me!) don't want more commercial use, what's the point of trying to force 6 or 8 smaller type stores on a established and nd successful neighborhood?
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #19422  
Old Posted Feb 20, 2019, 12:38 AM
iheartphilly's Avatar
iheartphilly iheartphilly is offline
Philly Rising Up!
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: motherEarth
Posts: 3,263
Quote:
Originally Posted by City Wide View Post
I hope I'm not becoming one of 'them'-----but I'm old enough to remember the good old days when the experts that bought us urban renewal, were quite certain that they were doing what was best for the City, then and into the future. Urban renewal was mostly urban disaster. I realize I might be sounding like someone who wears a tin foil hat and worries about the deep state, (both false as far as I can tell!) but I wouldn't recommend ever completely trusting professionals. I was a teenager in the 60's growing up in a older neighborhood in a Ohio city and I clearly remember when the City fathers opened up the hood and with it came a flood of gas stations and strip stores that were replacing good housing stock and for a variety of reasons, including the above, the area mostly died and now is maybe 60% empty or torn down. All I'm saying is decisions made by well meaning professionals can have negative results.

From my post #19409 last week in this thread, "So, I guess what I'm saying is if more construction in a area doesn't help control housing cost increases, then why push SH residents to change? Who does that change help----I'd say the developers first and foremost and then down the list I guess one could say the City benefits from a increase tax base, but unfortunately in this City I think you'd be hard pressed to find a room full of people who think the City gov't does even just a 'ok' job with the funds that we the people turn over to them. The City seems to be very good at finding expensive ways of not doing very much (thank you J. Blackwell). I wish the answer was as simple as opening up zoning, but I don't think the evidence shows that at all." If the people who live in SH (not me!) don't want more commercial use, what's the point of trying to force 6 or 8 smaller type stores on a established and nd successful neighborhood?
You have so much going on here in your write up. What does private enterprise have to do with controlling housing costs? The developers are not seeking Section 8 funds for public housing. The two proposals currently at play in SH are private investments and these developers are taking a risk and should be able to develop market rate apartments or condos that they want. They are taking all the risk and should be able to make a profit from the risk. Maybe if the developers want some kind of variance, they can allot "affordable units" for public servants like teachers, firefighters, or police to get that variance if that is something agreeable to both parties and not zoned for.

Regarding leaving it up to the professionals, yes, they are people as well and make mistakes (intentionally or not), because sometimes they serve their own interest or is following someone's agenda and don't get it right. And, this is where I say open up the process to a committee of urban planners and a public community organization with no conflict of interest and vet out the planning process if a master plan is being developed. Urban planning now is not what it was 40-50 years ago. I think if people stick to best practices in urban planning, less of what you saw in the past will take place. The framework is there, it just has to be adopted and implemented.

Regarding more commercial use, I think that is the quintessential component of urban living. If people don't want commercial use, they should move to the suburbs. They can enjoy all the shopping plazas and mall. Even certain towns like Media has a main street with restaurants, shops, and other commercial businesses. And, no one is forcing smaller types of stores into a community. A business person has to take the financial risk in opening a commercial small business in the neighborhood. Their due diligence takes place before making a financial commitment. A dry cleaner, a flower shop, a pharmacy, a bodega are some of the essentials of urban living where you can walk and take care of your day to day living needs. Every neighborhood should be self contained with these amenities.

And finally Philly could use more population growth and good paying jobs. It will help to shift the poverty balance and these taxes could be used to help the poor. Of course, that up to local govt to do the right thing.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #19423  
Old Posted Feb 20, 2019, 12:27 PM
skyscraper skyscraper is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,374
Quote:
Originally Posted by iheartphilly View Post
You have so much going on here in your write up. What does private enterprise have to do with controlling housing costs? The developers are not seeking Section 8 funds for public housing. The two proposals currently at play in SH are private investments and these developers are taking a risk and should be able to develop market rate apartments or condos that they want. They are taking all the risk and should be able to make a profit from the risk. Maybe if the developers want some kind of variance, they can allot "affordable units" for public servants like teachers, firefighters, or police to get that variance if that is something agreeable to both parties and not zoned for.

Regarding leaving it up to the professionals, yes, they are people as well and make mistakes (intentionally or not), because sometimes they serve their own interest or is following someone's agenda and don't get it right. And, this is where I say open up the process to a committee of urban planners and a public community organization with no conflict of interest and vet out the planning process if a master plan is being developed. Urban planning now is not what it was 40-50 years ago. I think if people stick to best practices in urban planning, less of what you saw in the past will take place. The framework is there, it just has to be adopted and implemented.

Regarding more commercial use, I think that is the quintessential component of urban living. If people don't want commercial use, they should move to the suburbs. They can enjoy all the shopping plazas and mall. Even certain towns like Media has a main street with restaurants, shops, and other commercial businesses. And, no one is forcing smaller types of stores into a community. A business person has to take the financial risk in opening a commercial small business in the neighborhood. Their due diligence takes place before making a financial commitment. A dry cleaner, a flower shop, a pharmacy, a bodega are some of the essentials of urban living where you can walk and take care of your day to day living needs. Every neighborhood should be self contained with these amenities.

And finally Philly could use more population growth and good paying jobs. It will help to shift the poverty balance and these taxes could be used to help the poor. Of course, that up to local govt to do the right thing.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #19424  
Old Posted Feb 20, 2019, 12:44 PM
PHL10's Avatar
PHL10 PHL10 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 1,770
Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin7 View Post
No one visits Philadelphia to see Society Hill
Wow, are you way off on this. If you don't realize that Society Hill contains many very high profile historic sites, not to mention Washington Square, I'm not sure you're equipped to contribute to this debate.
__________________
I've been living under a rock.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #19425  
Old Posted Feb 20, 2019, 2:46 PM
Justin7 Justin7 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 900
Quote:
Originally Posted by PHL10 View Post
Wow, are you way off on this. If you don't realize that Society Hill contains many very high profile historic sites, not to mention Washington Square, I'm not sure you're equipped to contribute to this debate.
It's always amusing when someone is both insulting and demonstrably wrong.

https://www.visitphilly.com/articles/philadelphia/must-see-attractions-philadelphia/

Yes, there are historic landmarks, but the vast majority of tourists never set foot on anything but the edges of SH.

Sure, people may visit Washington Square -- technically in SH -- but usually as an addition to Independence Mall. Or some may check out the old churches, if they're already in the city and that is their kind of thing, but most people are sticking to Christ Church. Food tourists may have reservations at Zahav, but that's kind of like saying people going to the Linc are there to see South Philly.

I did not suggest that SH has nothing of value. I personally enjoy walking the neighborhood on occasion (as long as no one tries to make me take 5th St.), but it is simply not an important tourism draw.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #19426  
Old Posted Feb 20, 2019, 3:59 PM
allovertown allovertown is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 1,338
Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin7 View Post
It's always amusing when someone is both insulting and demonstrably wrong.

https://www.visitphilly.com/articles/philadelphia/must-see-attractions-philadelphia/

Yes, there are historic landmarks, but the vast majority of tourists never set foot on anything but the edges of SH.

Sure, people may visit Washington Square -- technically in SH -- but usually as an addition to Independence Mall. Or some may check out the old churches, if they're already in the city and that is their kind of thing, but most people are sticking to Christ Church. Food tourists may have reservations at Zahav, but that's kind of like saying people going to the Linc are there to see South Philly.

I did not suggest that SH has nothing of value. I personally enjoy walking the neighborhood on occasion (as long as no one tries to make me take 5th St.), but it is simply not an important tourism draw.
I work in the tourism industry and I would say that you are both right and wrong. Society Hill is not the main draw for history tourism and the majority of the tourists will stay not just in Old City, but really within the 8 or so blocks that constitute Independence National Historical Park.

But I think you'd be surprised how many tourists want to walk around Society Hill. Some of them want to explore Society Hill without even knowing the name Society Hill nor where it is. There is a well ingrained idea amongst tourists that Philadelphia is a city where you can walk around in the type of tree covered, historic area with cobblestones roads that parts of Society Hill fit to a T. As you mentioned there are tourist sites in Society Hill but no one is exactly itching to view the Thaddeous Kosciousko House or Old Saint Mary's Chuch. But that's not the point, because the neighborhood ITSELF is an undeniable draw. It is believed there are more 18th century residences in Society Hill, than in any other entire city in this country.

If you went and sat out on a corner like 3rd and Pine or 4th and Spruce, on a nice summer day, the number of tourists you'd see go by would easily number in the thousands. They would drive by on buses, bikes, surreys and on horse and carriage tours. They'd walk by on history tours and ghost tours and many would just be exploring the beautiful neighborhood on their own.

Would it hurt Philadelphia's tourism if Society Hill was remarkably changed so that tourists could no longer feel like they're walking though a preserved 18th century neighborhood? I think the obvious answer is yes and clearly more than you think.

That said, I think there are plenty of ways to improve Society Hill without ruining the historic fabric of the neighborhood. Despite the large number of preserved historic buildings, anyone who has walked in society hill at all, knows there are also plenty of non historic buildings in the neighborhood. It's not like the acme for example fits the historic character of society hill anyway, there would have be no change to the historic fabric if that became a 4 story apartment building and it would have been better for the city.

Similarly adding restaurants or corner stores to non historic buildings doesn't have to hurt anything and can make the neighborhood more livable for more more people and draw even more people and tourists to the neighborhood. And the high rises proposed on he edges of society hill are already surrounded by high rises and obviously have no negative impact on the historic character of other parts of society of hill that remains in intact.

I agree with you that there are plenty of ways to improve Society Hill, and that their desire to never change hurts the neighborhood and Philadelphia. But I believe strongly that any changes to Society Hill need to be made thoughtfully and with the respect that it is important to our history and our tourism economy, a respect that you seem to lack.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #19427  
Old Posted Feb 20, 2019, 4:20 PM
McBane McBane is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 3,708
This back and forth misses the point. Besides, what makes SH a pleasant place to wander (tourists or locals) is what makes it a desirable neighborhood. I think everyone can agree on that.

Neither of these two proposed towers are set in the charming heart of Society Hill and no buildings are being demolished to make way for them either. Finally, both are adjacent to existing towers, so there is precedent. Any argument against these proposals rings of selfishness and classic NIMBYism. Except a little mention in Inga's article that focused on the design aspect, I haven't come across a single sensible argument that warrants consideration; just the vague "changes the character of my neighborhood."
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #19428  
Old Posted Feb 20, 2019, 6:59 PM
City Wide City Wide is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 1,627
Quote:
Originally Posted by iheartphilly View Post
You have so much going on here in your write up. What does private enterprise have to do with controlling housing costs? The developers are not seeking Section 8 funds for public housing. The two proposals currently at play in SH are private investments and these developers are taking a risk and should be able to develop market rate apartments or condos that they want. They are taking all the risk and should be able to make a profit from the risk. Maybe if the developers want some kind of variance, they can allot "affordable units" for public servants like teachers, firefighters, or police to get that variance if that is something agreeable to both parties and not zoned for.

Regarding leaving it up to the professionals, yes, they are people as well and make mistakes (intentionally or not), because sometimes they serve their own interest or is following someone's agenda and don't get it right. And, this is where I say open up the process to a committee of urban planners and a public community organization with no conflict of interest and vet out the planning process if a master plan is being developed. Urban planning now is not what it was 40-50 years ago. I think if people stick to best practices in urban planning, less of what you saw in the past will take place. The framework is there, it just has to be adopted and implemented.

Regarding more commercial use, I think that is the quintessential component of urban living. If people don't want commercial use, they should move to the suburbs. They can enjoy all the shopping plazas and mall. Even certain towns like Media has a main street with restaurants, shops, and other commercial businesses. And, no one is forcing smaller types of stores into a community. A business person has to take the financial risk in opening a commercial small business in the neighborhood. Their due diligence takes place before making a financial commitment. A dry cleaner, a flower shop, a pharmacy, a bodega are some of the essentials of urban living where you can walk and take care of your day to day living needs. Every neighborhood should be self contained with these amenities.

And finally Philly could use more population growth and good paying jobs. It will help to shift the poverty balance and these taxes could be used to help the poor. Of course, that up to local govt to do the right thing.
re the cost of housing, I was responding to this "------ Even if you disagree with my views on Society Hill though, the main problem with neighborhoods influencing development is that they all want to keep the neighborhood how it is today. We are not building enough units as it is so unless we pick up the pace we'll be guaranteeing an affordability crisis throughout large swaths of the city and region in the future."

I just don't get peoples attitude that somehow or another they know what should be better/right for existing, successful neighborhoods. If you think having more commercial areas in HS is important to you, then don't move there. That seems much more reasonable then telling everyone who already lives there that they should move to the suburbs just because they don't share your views on zoning! I just don't see this raising to the level of justice that demands the City's involvement. We live in a big city and I don't want every area to be the same. HS is what it is, like it, love it, hate it, or don't care. There are many close in building sites to CC, ones where I hope the City's upward trend is continued (including the 2 spots on the edge of HS).

Something tells me that this argument could continue for years------
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #19429  
Old Posted Feb 20, 2019, 7:20 PM
iheartphilly's Avatar
iheartphilly iheartphilly is offline
Philly Rising Up!
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: motherEarth
Posts: 3,263
Quote:
Originally Posted by City Wide View Post
re the cost of housing, I was responding to this "------ Even if you disagree with my views on Society Hill though, the main problem with neighborhoods influencing development is that they all want to keep the neighborhood how it is today. We are not building enough units as it is so unless we pick up the pace we'll be guaranteeing an affordability crisis throughout large swaths of the city and region in the future."

Ok, I see what you mean I think. I mean can't the "affordable" units go somewhere else besides SH. And what is affordable in one neighborhood may not be in another because the comps in that neighborhood dictate the market price of the homes.

I just don't get peoples attitude that somehow or another they know what should be better/right for existing, successful neighborhoods. If you think having more commercial areas in HS is important to you, then don't move there. That seems much more reasonable then telling everyone who already lives there that they should move to the suburbs just because they don't share your views on zoning! I just don't see this raising to the level of justice that demands the City's involvement. We live in a big city and I don't want every area to be the same. HS is what it is, like it, love it, hate it, or don't care. There are many close in building sites to CC, ones where I hope the City's upward trend is continued (including the 2 spots on the edge of HS).

Maybe, but it goes back to the basic tenants of urban living. Just basic stuff like a flower shop, a dry cleaner/tailor, a corner grocery store, etc..... I'm willing to not even include a small restaurant...LOL. Or maybe we should go back to the horse and buggy days and candle lit homes...LOL. I get you, no need to debate it back and forth. To each their own is the best way out of this.

Something tells me that this argument could continue for years------
Not for me. But I get what you said and I've moved on from it. Maybe it's a generational thing.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #19430  
Old Posted Feb 20, 2019, 7:36 PM
Kfmcshan Kfmcshan is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 135
High-rise hotel coming to the site of the former Midtown II diner in Center City

"The site at 122 S.11th Street in Philadelphia once occupied by Midtown II Restaurant is set to become a 14-story, 86-room hotel with restaurants on the bottom two levels."

via Plan Philly
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #19431  
Old Posted Feb 20, 2019, 7:42 PM
mcgrath618's Avatar
mcgrath618 mcgrath618 is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Clark Park, Philadelphia, PA
Posts: 4,031
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kfmcshan View Post
High-rise hotel coming to the site of the former Midtown II diner in Center City

"The site at 122 S.11th Street in Philadelphia once occupied by Midtown II Restaurant is set to become a 14-story, 86-room hotel with restaurants on the bottom two levels."

via Plan Philly
Awesome! So many sub 20 story projects have been going up lately, and I think that that's a good thing!
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #19432  
Old Posted Feb 20, 2019, 7:59 PM
jsbrook jsbrook is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Bala Cynwyd
Posts: 3,658
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kfmcshan View Post
High-rise hotel coming to the site of the former Midtown II diner in Center City

"The site at 122 S.11th Street in Philadelphia once occupied by Midtown II Restaurant is set to become a 14-story, 86-room hotel with restaurants on the bottom two levels."

via Plan Philly
Was just about to post this. This is great. Isn't the adjacent parking garage being redeveloped too? Pretty sure someone here posted something on that a bit ago. Anyone have that link? Together, this will be a really nice change for this stretch.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #19433  
Old Posted Feb 20, 2019, 8:03 PM
DudeGuy's Avatar
DudeGuy DudeGuy is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Center City Philadelphia
Posts: 281
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kfmcshan View Post
High-rise hotel coming to the site of the former Midtown II diner in Center City

"The site at 122 S.11th Street in Philadelphia once occupied by Midtown II Restaurant is set to become a 14-story, 86-room hotel with restaurants on the bottom two levels."

via Plan Philly
That's right next to the the parking garage that's getting developed at 12th and Sansom: https://www.metrocommercial.com/landlord-services/12th-sansom/
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #19434  
Old Posted Feb 20, 2019, 8:16 PM
jsbrook jsbrook is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Bala Cynwyd
Posts: 3,658
Quote:
Originally Posted by DudeGuy View Post
That's right next to the the parking garage that's getting developed at 12th and Sansom: https://www.metrocommercial.com/landlord-services/12th-sansom/
Thanks for posting this.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #19435  
Old Posted Feb 20, 2019, 8:45 PM
PhilliesPhan's Avatar
PhilliesPhan PhilliesPhan is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 1,364
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kfmcshan View Post
High-rise hotel coming to the site of the former Midtown II diner in Center City

"The site at 122 S.11th Street in Philadelphia once occupied by Midtown II Restaurant is set to become a 14-story, 86-room hotel with restaurants on the bottom two levels."

via Plan Philly
So that explains the demolition notice I've been seeing on the door for the past month or so. This is excellent news, as Market East could use some additional density at key corners!
__________________
No one outsmarts a Fox!

Temple University '18 ']['
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #19436  
Old Posted Feb 20, 2019, 9:53 PM
Redddog Redddog is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 1,767
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilliesPhan View Post
So that explains the demolition notice I've been seeing on the door for the past month or so. This is excellent news, as Market East could use some additional density at key corners!
Wow. That's a lot for that area.

Nice.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #19437  
Old Posted Feb 20, 2019, 10:19 PM
summersm343's Avatar
summersm343 summersm343 is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 18,474
CDR Submissions are up and they’re glorious.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #19438  
Old Posted Feb 20, 2019, 10:38 PM
City Wide City Wide is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 1,627
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kfmcshan View Post
High-rise hotel coming to the site of the former Midtown II diner in Center City

"The site at 122 S.11th Street in Philadelphia once occupied by Midtown II Restaurant is set to become a 14-story, 86-room hotel with restaurants on the bottom two levels."
hopefully they won't do the demo unless construction is soon to follow. Generally I'll take a empty building over a empty lot.

This is a example where I wonder what the additional costs would be to have an additional 5 to 10 floors of apartments or low cost condos on top of the hotel units.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #19439  
Old Posted Feb 20, 2019, 10:38 PM
iheartphilly's Avatar
iheartphilly iheartphilly is offline
Philly Rising Up!
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: motherEarth
Posts: 3,263
Quote:
Originally Posted by summersm343 View Post
CDR Submissions are up and they’re glorious.
Indeed, One Dock Residential Tower and the project on N8th and N9th look awesome. One Dock looks so handsome and almost like a fortress at the base. Glad they went away with the brick. Don't know if they could of pulled it off with brick being next to the Sheraton with its bricks.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #19440  
Old Posted Feb 20, 2019, 10:41 PM
Jayfar's Avatar
Jayfar Jayfar is online now
Midrise
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 1,575
Quote:
Originally Posted by jsbrook View Post
Was just about to post this. This is great. Isn't the adjacent parking garage being redeveloped too? Pretty sure someone here posted something on that a bit ago. Anyone have that link? Together, this will be a really nice change for this stretch.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DudeGuy View Post
That's right next to the the parking garage that's getting developed at 12th and Sansom: https://www.metrocommercial.com/landlord-services/12th-sansom/
The garage on 12th is the one that Brickstone bought in 2015, but at the time they had planned on two towers at that site, rather than the low-rise development pictured in the Metro listing.

3 years ago: Brickstone anticipates two towers - at least one of them a residential high-rise with ground-floor retail - at a site at 12th and Sansom Streets that it bought last year, managing partner John Connors said.

Brickstone Cos. plans still more apartments for Market East | Philly.com
__________________
Philadelphia Industrial & Commercial Heritage
A public Facebook group to promote appreciation of Greater Philadelphia's industrial and commercial history and advocate for historic preservation and adaptive re-use.

Last edited by Jayfar; Feb 20, 2019 at 11:13 PM.
Reply With Quote
     
     
This discussion thread continues

Use the page links to the lower-right to go to the next page for additional posts
 
 
Reply

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Global Projects & Construction > City Compilations
Forum Jump



Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 10:40 AM.

     

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2026, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.