Liberals attack NDP over ICBC following report leak

[Sheba]

Ah the joys of inheriting someone else's mess..

The fingerpointing is underway in earnest after a leaked report warned B.C. motorists will get hit with auto insurance rate hikes of almost 30 per cent in the next two years if the government doesn’t massively overhaul ICBC’s basic insurance system.

The 203-page report by Ernst & Young says drastic measures are needed that could include capping payouts for pain and suffering for minor injuries, re-introducing photo radar, changing red-light cameras so they also catch speeders, boosting police efforts to catch distracted and impaired drivers, and making high-risk drivers pay more for insurance.

The report was commissioned by ICBC’s board earlier this year while the Liberal government was in power, but was not made public.

The new NDP government, sworn in Tuesday, inherits the ICBC mess.

“The report is a damning indictment of the B.C. Liberals management of ICBC over the last 16 years,” Attorney General David Eby, whose portfolio includes ICBC, said in a statement on Friday. “They’ve left a real mess for us to fix.”

...

The Ernst & Young report paints a bleak picture of finances at the Insurance Corp. of B.C., saying the Crown auto insurer, which has a monopoly on basic coverage, is facing unsustainable financial pressures and requires immediate intervention by the provincial government.

“B.C.’s auto insurance system is facing unprecedented challenges,” it said.

The report was commissioned by ICBC’s board earlier this year, but was not made public. A copy was leaked to Postmedia News.

While ICBC premiums are among the highest in Canada, the report said, “they are not high enough to cover the true cost of paying claims.”

...

In recent years, ICBC had been boxed into a corner by the Liberals. There were politically motivated rate caps at the same time as the number of claims and injury costs soared and earnings from the optional side of its insurance business, which have been used to keep basic rates artificially low, dwindled.

[Stingray2004]

Never ceases to amaze me how "low information" folk are.

ICBC has 3 major growing problems:

1. Rising accident rates with associated escalating costs;

2. Rising claim/personal injury rates with associated escalating costs;

3. Rising accident repair rates - to wit, when rear-ended yesteryear, generally speaking, all that was required was a bumper replacement, for example. Today? Requires rear-end cameras, sensors, etc. to also be replaced. Raises repair costs exponentially.

All of the foregoing results in growing pressure for increased ICBC rates -
there is your "mess".

BTW, insurance companies utilize actuaries to balance premiums with costs well into the future.

You are an obvious NDP supporter. As social-engineering policy, NDP supports folk moving from private vehicles "onto the bus". A good social-engineering tool is to raise ICBC rates for that to occur - call it a quasi-TDM policy.

Moreover, the NDP also wants to increase the carbon tax in order to further entail folk moving from private vehicles to the bus. Nothing new here with the NDP.

The real mess about to occur with the GreeNDP? Am seeing it already in terms of both gov't fiscal matters as well as economic matters. Remember, we don't have a federal Liberal-type party now in power in BC but the most-left-wing ideological version of any NDP wing across Canada.

Suck it up.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by Stingray2004

Never ceases to amaze me how "low information" folk are.

ICBC has 3 major growing problems:

1. Rising accident rates with associated escalating costs;

2. Rising claim/personal injury rates with associated escalating costs;

3. Rising accident repair rates - to wit, when rear-ended yesteryear, generally speaking, all that was required was a bumper replacement, for example. Today? Requires rear-end cameras, sensors, etc. to also be replaced. Raises repair costs exponentially.

All of the foregoing results in growing pressure for increased ICBC rates -
there is your "mess".

BTW, insurance companies utilize actuaries to balance premiums with costs well into the future.

You are an obvious NDP supporter. As social-engineering policy, NDP supports folk moving from private vehicles "onto the bus". A good social-engineering tool is to raise ICBC rates for that to occur - call it a quasi-TDM policy.

Moreover, the NDP also wants to increase the carbon tax in order to further entail folk moving from private vehicles to the bus. Nothing new here with the NDP.

The real mess about to occur with the GreeNDP? Am seeing it already in terms of both gov't fiscal matters as well as economic matters. Remember, we don't have a federal Liberal-type party now in power in BC but the most-left-wing ideological version of any NDP wing across Canada.

Suck it up.

Are you actually trying to blame the NDP for this? They've been in power for 2 days after a 16 year BC Liberal government... but this looks bad for the NDP?! This report was commissioned by the ICBC board and provided to them months ago. Suddenly Horgan is premier and it mysteriously leaks? How "low information" do you think people are?

Sean Spicer quit as Trump's press secretary. Are you auditioning for that job?

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by Stingray2004

GreeNDP wants to be gov't? Let's see what their "solution" to this relatively recent ICBC problem is. That's what "governing" is all about. Separates the proverbial "men from the boys".

Wow, you're right in there with the BC Libs talking points aren't you? This problem just happened overnight, clearly.

Originally Posted by Stingray2004

Moreover, former BC NDP strategist and long-time strategist Bill Tieleman on Horgan back in 2007 in Monday Magazine?

Trump's similar negative/flawed character traits right to the "T".

It is what it is.

Some pundit said something 10 years ago... must be gospel truth, amirite?

You've always been a BC Liberal hack, but in recent weeks it's been quite embarrassing. Give it a rest.

[GeeCee]

Not sure why the link to the article itself didn't get posted, but here it is: http://vancouversun.com/news/politic...t-report-warns

But by all means, continue the personal attacks instead of debating the issues, Stingray. It was certainly warranted against Sheba for simply posting an article.

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by GeeCee

Not sure why the link to the article itself didn't get posted, but here it is: http://vancouversun.com/news/politic...t-report-warns

My bad - I thought I had posted the link.

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Are you actually trying to blame the NDP for this? They've been in power for 2 days after a 16 year BC Liberal government... but this looks bad for the NDP?! This report was commissioned by the ICBC board and provided to them months ago. Suddenly Horgan is premier and it mysteriously leaks? How "low information" do you think people are?

Yeah blaming the NDP for this takes major chutzpah.

[Caliplanner1]

As a recent resident of B.C. coming from a capitalist system (in the states) where there is no single government insurance company I am intrigued by the mission of ICBC. I will say this though,...I have noticed the intention of the province's insurer (re: ICBC) to levy a significantly higher insurance rate on luxury vehicles here so as to offset their higher accident repair costs...a move that to me seems equitable!

[Stingray2004]

Sigh. BC NDP gov't in 1990's began practice of "dividend payments" from crown corps. into gov't coffers. Hell, even new Finance Minister Carole James, when recently asked, was non-committal about ending that practice. This matter is not what is driving "cost pressures" at ICBC.

But the GreeNDP's "solution" of "freezing" ICBC rates for one year is certainly not a solution.

Fact. Ernst & Young just came out with a 203-page report on ICBC.

Fact. New vehicles, with exterior sensors, cameras, etc. are becoming very expensive to repair after an accident. A cost pressure.

Fact. 15% increase in crashes year over year (2016 over 2015). A cost pressure.

Fact. Rising bodily injury claims both in terms of number and costs. A cost pressure.

Fact. Number of people injured per crash has risen 32% over six years. A cost pressure.

Now the "solution". Increased premiums? Cap on injury claim amounts? Re-introduction of photo radar? "No-fault" insurance? Other? It's for gov't/crown corp. to make decisions. Either way gonna be politically unpopular.

BTW, of the top four provinces with the most expensive premiums, 3 are public auto insurers (BC, SK, and MB). BC ranks 2nd in Canada on that score.

And ICBC has been a political football for decades because no government of any political stripe wants to raise rates.

[retro_orange]

Originally Posted by Stingray2004

Sigh. BC NDP gov't in 1990's began practice of "dividend payments" from crown corps. into gov't coffers. Hell, even new Finance Minister Carole James, when recently asked, was non-committal about ending that practice. This matter is not what is driving "cost pressures" at ICBC.

haha the Liberals had 16 years to stop accepting those payments and reform it but they loved taking credit for it and you know it.

[deasine]

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[Kisai]

Have you all not been paying attention to how people in Metro Vancouver park? They are always bumping into the car behind them, or into the car in front of them.

I would say the sensor replacement is very likely the #1 reason for the costs, followed by the taste for expensive vehicles by the foreign investors kids.

ICBC should start charging by Fuel type and engine size. There is no reason for anyone in Metro Vancouver to commute in anything larger than a Smartcar, start treating luxury cars as luxury cars.

[invisibleairwaves]

Lots of Lib vs. NDP finger pointing going on in the wake of this report and not a lot of good answers about ICBC's responsibility for this mess.

Accident rates and injuries are up? Okay, that's deeply unfortunate on many levels. So who exactly is responsible for promoting road safety in this province? Who is handing out driving licenses? Who is tasked with helping the DoT and municipalities design safer roads? It's ICBC. IF they're failing at their roles beyond insurance, that is absolutely something that needs to be addressed ASAP, before (or failing that, concurrently with) any discussion of rate hikes.

If ICBC is unable to make the numbers work despite charging more than most of North America for essentially the same service, we need to blame them and not the government du jour.

[Alex Mackinnon]

Originally Posted by Kisai

Have you all not been paying attention to how people in Metro Vancouver park? They are always bumping into the car behind them, or into the car in front of them.

I would say the sensor replacement is very likely the #1 reason for the costs, followed by the taste for expensive vehicles by the foreign investors kids.

ICBC should start charging by Fuel type and engine size. There is no reason for anyone in Metro Vancouver to commute in anything larger than a Smartcar, start treating luxury cars as luxury cars.

Except that there is no discount on a second vehicle to commute in, even though you can only drive one at a time. Even if it saves a lot of fuel, it's way more expensive to support the second vehicle rather than just have one versatile and generally larger vehicle.

Also, SmartCars are hot garbage.

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by Stingray2004

Never ceases to amaze me how "low information" folk are.

ICBC has 3 major growing problems:

1. Rising accident rates with associated escalating costs;

2. Rising claim/personal injury rates with associated escalating costs;

3. Rising accident repair rates - to wit, when rear-ended yesteryear, generally speaking, all that was required was a bumper replacement, for example. Today? Requires rear-end cameras, sensors, etc. to also be replaced. Raises repair costs exponentially.

All of the foregoing results in growing pressure for increased ICBC rates -
there is your "mess".

BTW, insurance companies utilize actuaries to balance premiums with costs well into the future.

You are an obvious NDP supporter. As social-engineering policy, NDP supports folk moving from private vehicles "onto the bus". A good social-engineering tool is to raise ICBC rates for that to occur - call it a quasi-TDM policy.

Moreover, the NDP also wants to increase the carbon tax in order to further entail folk moving from private vehicles to the bus. Nothing new here with the NDP.

The real mess about to occur with the GreeNDP? Am seeing it already in terms of both gov't fiscal matters as well as economic matters. Remember, we don't have a federal Liberal-type party now in power in BC but the most-left-wing ideological version of any NDP wing across Canada.

Suck it up.

Did those problems not exist during the BC Liberal's tenure? What did they do to deal with them? Was extracting dividends from ICBC their strategy to help it's balance sheet? Inquiring minds want to know...

[retro_orange]

Originally Posted by Kisai

ICBC should start charging by Fuel type and engine size. There is no reason for anyone in Metro Vancouver to commute in anything larger than a Smartcar, start treating luxury cars as luxury cars.

I couldn't agree more. The air would be much cleaner too.

We have a serious issue with the way cars are designed and marketed in North America. Mainly it boils down to they always make bigger better. Smaller cheaper.

Smaller cars in North America are notoriously cheaply built, poorly fitted with options and styled kinda goofy.

Car companies could make small sedans and coupes very elegant, well fitted and quality built. In the 80's there were plenty to choose from. (minus quality with many, but still) SUV's also cause a lot more damage to cars smaller and lower than them.

It's ridiculous that SUV's are still considered 'light trucks' and don't have to adhere to fuel efficiency standards of cars in the US and Canada.

[cornholio]

Originally Posted by Alex Mackinnon

Except that there is no discount on a second vehicle to commute in, even though you can only drive one at a time. Even if it saves a lot of fuel, it's way more expensive to support the second vehicle rather than just have one versatile and generally larger vehicle.

Also, SmartCars are hot garbage.

Agreed. I always had a large truck or SUV because I would go up forestry roads on a regular basis and travel around the province into remote areas for various activities. It made no financial sense to have two vehicles but with a discount it might have (small city car and a large weekend truck). As it is I just used the large truck/suv on a daily basis, it was cheaper and more convenient that way.

Also agree about smart cars being hot garbage.

[misher]

I think ICBC is a hot potato no matter the government. Personally I'm a Liberal supporter but they did disappoint me with how they handled ICBC. However, it feels like no one can get rid of ICBC due to the large union behind it. Insurance should have been privatized long ago. In America you can have an insurance policy for all cars while in Canada you get them for individual cars. Also safe driver discounts are greater in America.

In the end it feels like 5% of drivers account for 80% of accidents but that's just a guess.

We should definitely require backup cameras in cars and other things to reduce crashes. I'm surprised no one has required that rubber bumpers be put on all cars (like bumper cars), they'd look awful but they'd help alot. If you look at older cars they all had metal or rubber bumpers and now its like every car who mildly touches another car has to pay 1000+ for paint.

[Ben Dover]

You can thank the pig-headedness (is that even a word?) of ICBC and the glut of "Injury" Lawyers, for the current mess.
A friend of mine was rear-ended at 50 kmh and suffered some REAL injuries. ICBC's response was to settle for $10,000 and they dug in their heels.
Needless to say, it went to court and after 3 years he received a $270,000 payout.

So....by digging in, ICBC ensured that this would go to litigation. Instead of settling for say, $100,000 (to which my friend said he would have agreed)...there were lawyers, judges, depositions, statements, doctors, and countless other "costs pressures" that could have been avoided at the onset, if ICBC had played fair. 170% more than would have sufficed.

Any sort of insurance fraud should be dealt with SEVERELY as well.

[casper]

Originally Posted by Ben Dover

You can thank the pig-headedness (is that even a word?) of ICBC and the glut of "Injury" Lawyers, for the current mess.
A friend of mine was rear-ended at 50 kmh and suffered some REAL injuries. ICBC's response was to settle for $10,000 and they dug in their heels.
Needless to say, it went to court and after 3 years he received a $270,000 payout.

So....by digging in, ICBC ensured that this would go to litigation. Instead of settling for say, $100,000 (to which my friend said he would have agreed)...there were lawyers, judges, depositions, statements, doctors, and countless other "costs pressures" that could have been avoided at the onset, if ICBC had played fair. 170% more than would have sufficed.

Any sort of insurance fraud should be dealt with SEVERELY as well.

I don't think that is an issue of ICBC playing fair or not.

What it is is a case of ICBC being pragmatic. Long before they go to court ICBC should have a good idea of what the outcome is going to be and what the award will be. They can save a lot of expense by just making a deal earlier in the process.

[misher]

Originally Posted by casper

I don't think that is an issue of ICBC playing fair or not.

What it is is a case of ICBC being pragmatic. Long before they go to court ICBC should have a good idea of what the outcome is going to be and what the award will be. They can save a lot of expense by just making a deal earlier in the process.

A few problems are that no one takes responsibility in big companies, we have lawyers giving bad advice that leads to them getting more work (basically rewarded for being bad with more money!) , and our legal system sucks.