Heavy Rail, Commuter Rail, & Intercity Transportation

[Dengler Avenue]

Wait for people to not be able to bear with the noise anymore and move out, then acquire their properties, then demolish them and put down 2 sets of tracks for HSR? Has anyone suggested this in previous pages (and been refuted)?

[Trainguy]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

Wait for people to not be able to bear with the noise anymore and move out, then acquire their properties, then demolish them and put down 2 sets of tracks for HSR? Has anyone suggested this in previous pages (and been refuted)?

Horgan announced that HSR would stop at Scott Road to connect to SKytrain.

[Dengler Avenue]

Originally Posted by Trainguy

Horgan announced that HSR would stop at Scott Road to connect to SKytrain.

Uh oh... Got links?

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

Uh oh... Got links?

Literally last week.

“We envision high-speed rail coming from Seattle into the Lower Mainland with a terminus in Surrey — the fastest growing community in the Lower Mainland — that would connect to our SkyTrain and other public infrastructure, to get to our airport, to get to downtown Vancouver,” Horgan said.

I don't think he gives a rat's —, so long as he has a ribbon to cut.

[Dengler Avenue]

What the... When we debated the terminus to death in the past few days, I thought it was still undetermined.

[Metro-One]

Originally Posted by lokyin

Came across an article on Seattle Transit Blog, thought I'd share.

A piece on location of terminals:
https://seattletransitblog.com/2017/08/09/seattle-vancouver-high-speed-rail-part-4-terminals/

A piece on route options from the border into Vancouver:
https://seattletransitblog.com/2017/07/3...eed-rail-part-3-bellingham-to-vancouver/

A few images from those posts that are particularly relevant:




The alignment along south side of Highway 1 makes sense for a final high-speed stretch before slowing down around Guildford / Fraser River crossing. Faster than any existing rail line.

And definitely coming around on a Waterfront Station terminus over Pacific Central. Gotta remember this terminus is a destination (which is the business case for it, not the convenience of some Vancouverites' departure if they live in Surrey). It's to facilitate businesses & economic growth, for tourism, etc. It's gotta go downtown.

As an argument for "last mile", although I love Pacific Central's accessibility & room for growth, ultimately Waterfront Stn is crucial. It's directly connected to Expo Line, Canada Line, Seabus, West Coast Express and all those busses on Pender. Direct connections to rest of Van, WV, NV, Bby, Richmond/YVR, NW/Surrey/Coquitlam and more. One transfer in almost all directions.

Surrey Terminus just can't compete!

The author suggests a grade separation & double tracking for the CN Burrard Inlet Line for 2/3 mile ($100-150 mil), which is small on the grand scheme of total budget. Worthwhile!

If the train slows to 40km/h (hypothetically) from Guildford to Waterfront or Pacific Central, would that mitigate issues of turns, grades and noise restrictions?

A little confused to what is actually being proposed here.

First issue, that alignment completely misses any connection with Skytrain in Surrey, so then how would Surrey become the (for now let’s call it phase one) terminus?

Second, they seem to suggest using the CN rail line into downtown (which we have learned is being doubled now for more freight), the question being, is this going to be a true HSR (400km/h) system, that would require its own dedicated set of rails / grade separation / limited access (especially in an urban environment) or a lower mid speed system that still has at grade crossings / can share with freight?????

If we want real HSR we are going to have to build viaducts (such as over the Serpentine River Valley between the two ridges to the north and south) and trenches and tunnels.

HSR in Japan is essentially a never ending back and forth between tunnels, viaducts, bridges, trenches and mounds

[trofirhen]

I just hope they don't choose Surrey as the FINAL terminus for the Vancouver end. That would be a classic case of "dumbing down." Slow it up to whatever, but continue to Downtown.
Either station. PLEASE.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Except Waterfront isn't capable of handling large amounts of passenger traffic or a customs checkpoint; Pacific Central still is.

It's not that big a loss. Between NE False Creek and the False Creek Flats redevelopment and the Broadway extension rezoning, Strathcona's going to be part of downtown by the time the HSR opens. The rest is a short SkyTrain ride away.

Originally Posted by officedweller

I was thinking elevated over top of the BNSF yard - south of the VPD shooting range -
but that looks pretty tight.
Or better yet - convert the VPD shooting range into the HSR station.

If we look at existing stations to use, Pacific Central does make the most sense. It is already set up for Customs and for intercity trains. Not only that it is reasonably close to a Skytrain station, and that area could be rehabilitated to allow a better connection to each other.

Waterfront, while it has all the transit connections, it does not have the infrastructure for real intercity travel. It does not have Customs. Yes, it could be built out, but that would be more money needed.

VCC - Clark could work, but just like Waterfront, no infrastructure, which means more expensive.

If they were making one to Toronto, it would be to an existing station, like Union. Putting it other places, while at first may seem good, it would be prohibitively expensive to get it to the point that is needed.

[Bdawe]

The "customs facility" at Pacific Central consists of some wire fencing, some doors, and some drywall. Any worthwhile passenger system is probably going to have enough passengers and train frequencies that the existing set-up at Pacific Central would have be substantially reworked *anyway* same as setting up a terminus at Waterfront.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by Bdawe

The "customs facility" at Pacific Central consists of some wire fencing, some doors, and some drywall. Any worthwhile passenger system is probably going to have enough passengers and train frequencies that the existing set-up at Pacific Central would have be substantially reworked *anyway* same as setting up a terminus at Waterfront.

But unlike Waterfront, there's enough space for a customs facility (however farcical it may be) to exist in the first place.

[Xerx]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

A little confused to what is actually being proposed here.

First issue, that alignment completely misses any connection with Skytrain in Surrey, so then how would Surrey become the (for now let’s call it phase one) terminus?

Second, they seem to suggest using the CN rail line into downtown (which we have learned is being doubled now for more freight), the question being, is this going to be a true HSR (400km/h) system, that would require its own dedicated set of rails / grade separation / limited access (especially in an urban environment) or a lower mid speed system that still has at grade crossings / can share with freight?????

If we want real HSR we are going to have to build viaducts (such as over the Serpentine River Valley between the two ridges to the north and south) and trenches and tunnels.

HSR in Japan is essentially a never ending back and forth between tunnels, viaducts, bridges, trenches and mounds

The author (Alon Levy, who a few years ago posted on this forum) is suggesting that the best location for a terminus is Vancouver. Which if you follow him at all, is entirely in line with his thinking on where rail termini should be, the economic centres of their metro areas (when discussing whether or not an HSR terminus should be in SF or Oakland, he favours SF).

The project that the series proposed is true HSR so what Alon is purposing does include viaducts and grade separation.

[Lancaster]

Apologies if I am out of touch with this conversation but should we not first have a viable intercity train service among lower mainland/BC cities prior to even contemplating an intercity high speed rail? You would expect to see pretty frequent medium-speed service between Vancouver, Surrey, Langley, Abbotsford, Chilliwack, Hope, Whistler, etc. Should there not also be a frequent connection between Vancouver and Portland with hourly or so train service?

It would seem prudent to focus in the short term on improving existing train services before embarking on such a transformational project.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Lancaster

Apologies if I am out of touch with this conversation but should we not first have a viable intercity train service among lower mainland/BC cities prior to even contemplating an intercity high speed rail? You would expect to see pretty frequent medium-speed service between Vancouver, Surrey, Langley, Abbotsford, Chilliwack, Hope, Whistler, etc. Should there not also be a frequent connection between Vancouver and Portland with hourly or so train service?

It would seem prudent to focus in the short term on improving existing train services before embarking on such a transformational project.

Psshhhhhhhh Expanding something that has not been expanded in 20 years? That would be un BC like.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by Lancaster

Apologies if I am out of touch with this conversation but should we not first have a viable intercity train service among lower mainland/BC cities prior to even contemplating an intercity high speed rail? You would expect to see pretty frequent medium-speed service between Vancouver, Surrey, Langley, Abbotsford, Chilliwack, Hope, Whistler, etc. Should there not also be a frequent connection between Vancouver and Portland with hourly or so train service?

It would seem prudent to focus in the short term on improving existing train services before embarking on such a transformational project.

Seeing as most of our rail lines are crooked and/or dominated by freight, I'm guessing that any commuter trains would have to use the HSR's guideway.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Seeing as most of our rail lines are crooked and/or dominated by freight, I'm guessing that any commuter trains would have to use the HSR's guideway.

You mean like many lines of GO and Exo?

[Bdawe]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

You mean like many lines of GO and Exo?

Thanks to geography and patterns of historic and contemporary public & private investment, the legacy railnetwork of a place like the GTA is a lot more usable for fast regional passenger service

The routes are typically straighter. there are more tracks, and more routes, and through-freight has mostly been bypassed away from the center of the region. Population centers and townsites tend to be located near the railroads in more places

This is not so true in the Lower Mainland

[Metro-One]

Originally Posted by Bdawe

Thanks to geography and patterns of historic and contemporary public & private investment, the legacy railnetwork of a place like the GTA is a lot more usable for fast regional passenger service

The routes are typically straighter. there are more tracks, and more routes, and through-freight has mostly been bypassed away from the center of the region. Population centers and townsites tend to be located near the railroads in more places

This is not so true in the Lower Mainland

None of this should get in the way of expanding service on the WCE corridor now that the Evergreen Line is complete.

Said it once and I will say it again it boggles my mind that there has been no conversation about creating a bi-directional service throughout the day from Coquitlam Centre Station east. It would involve some rail improvements for sure, but it was long argued that service could not be expanded due to the stretch of rail from downtown to Port Moody (along the Burrard Inlet) being far to congested and expensive to expand. Well, that choke point has now been circumnavigated.

Keep the morning and evening uni-direction services to downtown, add bi-directional from Coquitlam east.

[VancouverOfTheFuture]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

Keep the morning and evening uni-direction services to downtown, add bi-directional from Coquitlam east.

but is there actual demand for that? a service that is mid-day that forces you to transfer? the WCE has seen a negative trend recently after Evergreen. i know people talk about it, but is it something that would actually be worth it?

i am skeptical.

[Bdawe]

Originally Posted by VancouverOfTheFuture

but is there actual demand for that? a service that is mid-day that forces you to transfer? the WCE has seen a negative trend recently after Evergreen. i know people talk about it, but is it something that would actually be worth it?

i am skeptical.

Evergreen caused a one-time hit to WCE Ridership, but to my estimation from more recent ridership reports the WCE has recovered and will probably continue to grow in parallel to the Evergreen Line

Furthermore, the hypothetical WCE-East all day service being discussed would complement, rather than compete with the Evergreen Line if it terminates in Coquitlam or Port Moody or what-have-you

[fredinno]

Originally Posted by officedweller

I was thinking elevated over top of the BNSF yard - south of the VPD shooting range -
but that looks pretty tight.
Or better yet - convert the VPD shooting range into the HSR station.

You could build it elevated- but at that point, I would just take the solution of building the station in Waterfront, and building a new tunnel to get there. If the station is going to be elevated, may as well make money off selling the airspace.

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Strathcona's going to be part of downtown by the time the HSR opens.

Strathcona is still separated by the DTES, Railtown, and Chinatown, and is sandwiched by Grandview-Woodlands, and the industrial part of the flats.

Originally Posted by lokyin

I definitely wouldn't mind the Terminus being at Pacific Central. But Waterfront Station is more advantageous as an economic driver. IMO it could be capable of handling larger amounts of passenger traffic.

It's a small footprint now, but it's not impossible. Union Station in Toronto was able to find space for airport express and it's been constructing an expansion. In our case it doesn't need to be integrated into the existing Waterfront Station building, it just needs to be connected / walkfriendly between concourses.

How about:
1. That lot to the east of Waterfront Station building. That was supposed to be an office tower right? Did that get shot down? It's not as small as it looks.
2. Build over the tracks? Or even obliterate that ugly Waterfront Centre brown dirty waffle-looking tower and integrate a new terminus+commercial tower!
3. On the waterfront lot where Helijet currently is. Do the Aquilinis still own this land for their supposed "mls stadium"? This is a great option, it's a large empty flat lot, further away from the Gastown complainers. It's not gonna be much else for development now that Centerm is expanding west and blocking this site's view to the north... Potential site for terminus?

That office tower is still going though- the problem was the tower went 'over' the station. Unsurprisingly, the city wasn't exactly comfortable with that idea, so now it's being redesigned to fit only on the airspace of its parking lot site.

I think the waterfront Helipad lot and the track airspace is our best bet if we really want to build it at Waterfront. Reclaim more land on the Waterfront, and build more rail tracks. Tunnel Waterfront Rd up to Canada Place, and move the Waterfront logistics facility into a location on top of the Rail tracks on the East end of the Rail Yards. You can potentially get even more space if you are willing to destroy CRAB Park, but I won't go that far.

The Seabus would be moved to the north end of the Rail Yards.



Yellow is VIA, Orange is Cascades HSR, Red is Commuter Rail, Black is Freight.

A tunnel would be built for HSR and Commuter Rail.

Rocky Mountaineer would be moved back to Pacific Central, and a 3rd Track on the Burrard Inlet Line would be built for freight moving between the Flats and the CP Rail Yards, to compensate for lost Rail Yard Capacity; the Flats Rail Yards are currently underused because of it. https://vancouver.ca/docs/eastern-core/rail-corridor-strategy.pdf

This would destroy maybe 3 homes, and require rebuilding the Hastings Viaduct.

All traffic would also be closed from passing across the Burrard Inlet Line at-grade to provide even more freight Rail capacity (something more or less already planned).

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

What the... When we debated the terminus to death in the past few days, I thought it was still undetermined.

It is. The study is still ongoing- the issue is that 1 has a terminus in YVR, 1 a Terminus in Surrey, and 1 a Terminus in Pacific Central, but a Terminus in Portland at the Airport. Oh yeah, and this option also doesn't stop at any of the minor stops on the way, that was already eliminated from planning.

Horgan is just being a politician.

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

But unlike Waterfront, there's enough space for a customs facility (however farcical it may be) to exist in the first place.

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Except Waterfront isn't capable of handling large amounts of passenger traffic or a customs checkpoint; Pacific Central still is.

I mean, you can just build on top of the Rail tracks, like the Waterfront Station Transit Hub and Redevelopment Project proposal: http://www.vancitybuzz.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/Screen-shot-2012-08-15-at-1.54.53-AM.png

Except the 'Transit Hub' would extend all the way to the Canada Place Extension.

Build a new Mall on top, a Stadium, or office buildings, and you'd probably end up making a net profit overall. CP owns the Rail airspace, but has overall been open to the idea of the airspace's redevelopment.

Originally Posted by Lancaster

Apologies if I am out of touch with this conversation but should we not first have a viable intercity train service among lower mainland/BC cities prior to even contemplating an intercity high speed rail? You would expect to see pretty frequent medium-speed service between Vancouver, Surrey, Langley, Abbotsford, Chilliwack, Hope, Whistler, etc. Should there not also be a frequent connection between Vancouver and Portland with hourly or so train service?

It would seem prudent to focus in the short term on improving existing train services before embarking on such a transformational project.

That's not really possible without a new Fraser River Rail link, to avoid the congestion on the turntable Westminster Bridge. Tying the costs of that to HSR is a great way to get that crossing made, thus opening the gates to Commuter Rail to the Fraser Valley (that doesn't terminate at Scott Rd.)

There were reports done about it back in the day that ended up recommending express bus service into Abbotsford and Chilliwack as a more realistic option, considering the costs involved.

Same thing with Rail to Whistler, except the entire line is a single track.

Originally Posted by Metro-One

None of this should get in the way of expanding service on the WCE corridor now that the Evergreen Line is complete.

Said it once and I will say it again it boggles my mind that there has been no conversation about creating a bi-directional service throughout the day from Coquitlam Centre Station east. It would involve some rail improvements for sure, but it was long argued that service could not be expanded due to the stretch of rail from downtown to Port Moody (along the Burrard Inlet) being far to congested and expensive to expand. Well, that choke point has now been circumnavigated.

Keep the morning and evening uni-direction services to downtown, add bi-directional from Coquitlam east.

Though note that the direct fast connection to downtown is a major reason to take the WCE nowadays anyways.