Confederation Line (Stage 1) | In Service 1.0

[Kitchissippi]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

This is all hypothetical of course. Who knows what would have happened. But any tunnel plan needed to be future proofed as we have done. So, you would hope that a tunnel with the N/S route would have likewise been future proofed. It would be foolish to build a tunnel with insufficient capacity for future expansion of the network.

As if that plan was ever "future-proofed" It even dead ended at Nicholas with absolutely no clue as to how it would continue further.

[J.OT13]

Quick thought about Transitway allowing for cheap(er) conversion. Stage 1 was the only section that truly had base for our new rail system.

Stage 2 will include a few short existing sections between Tunney's and Dominion, Lincoln Fields and Algonquin along with Pinecrest to Bayshore. The majority will be new corridors to bridge gaps that former Councils decided to post-pone indefinitely, including extensive tunneling in the west.

Stage 3, we'll have parts of the Barrhaven Transitway however, lots of grade separation not included as part of the BRT will be required. In Kanata, I believe we only have one underpass that was built for a future transit corridor (under Kanata Avenue?) along with reserved space up to Terry Fox Drive. Otherwise, we're starting from scratch.

So yes, the initial Transitway built in the 80s secured an expansive right-of-way for a future rail line, but little work had been done in the following 20 years to expand the system. The planned Orleans Transitway was replaced by bus lanes, the downtown tunnel was ever built, the gap between Dominion and Lincoln Fields was never dealt with, the Cannaught Park conundrum was debated sporadically over the decades and Kanata was never built other than Terry Fox Station.

They did build the S/E Transitway in the early 90s, but conversion will likely never be justified. If it is ever converted, it will be for the sake of cheap and simple addition of a few kilometers of rail. Nothing but a useless legacy project for politicians.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

As if that plan was ever "future-proofed" It even dead ended at Nicholas with absolutely no clue as to how it would continue further.

It is a whole lot better than the crap Trillium Line that the city has created. That is truly "future-proofed" when they don't have a clue how to double track it.

[JohnnyRenton]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Quick thought about Transitway allowing for cheap(er) conversion. Stage 1 was the only section that truly had base for our new rail system.

Stage 2 will include a few short existing sections between Tunney's and Dominion, Lincoln Fields and Algonquin along with Pinecrest to Bayshore. The majority will be new corridors to bridge gaps that former Councils decided to post-pone indefinitely, including extensive tunneling in the west.

Stage 3, we'll have parts of the Barrhaven Transitway however, lots of grade separation not included as part of the BRT will be required. In Kanata, I believe we only have one underpass that was built for a future transit corridor (under Kanata Avenue?) along with reserved space up to Terry Fox Drive. Otherwise, we're starting from scratch.

So yes, the initial Transitway built in the 80s secured an expansive right-of-way for a future rail line, but little work had been done in the following 20 years to expand the system. The planned Orleans Transitway was replaced by bus lanes, the downtown tunnel was ever built, the gap between Dominion and Lincoln Fields was never dealt with, the Cannaught Park conundrum was debated sporadically over the decades and Kanata was never built other than Terry Fox Station.

They did build the S/E Transitway in the early 90s, but conversion will likely never be justified. If it is ever converted, it will be for the sake of cheap and simple addition of a few kilometers of rail. Nothing but a useless legacy project for politicians.

Your are right that there are still some expensive gaps that need to be filled in. And you can understand why too. Buses can switch back and forth from a regular road to the Transitway and the time savings would have been marginal for the money needed for some of the projects, especially the sections requiring tunneling. Obviously LRT needs a complete network, so now they have to be done.

But, the savings achieved by having the Transitway built first are still pretty significant. If you consider all the engineering works that can be reused (St. Laurent Station and the associated underpasses, the underpasses at Blair Rd and Montreal Rd, Algonquin Station, the underpass leading to Bayshore, etc, etc (those are the first ones that came to mind), then there is probably $2 billion in engineering works that the LRT line does not have to worry about. That is a substantial amount of money and would slow down LRT expansion if it had to be included in the current projects.

Maybe the city didn't get every last project to lay the perfect groundwork for LRT (or as close to it as you can get), but it did a lot. Even though the Transitway was a victim of its own success and developed many problems, it was a hugely valuable project and is still serving dividends as the city develops its LRT network.

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

It is a whole lot better than the crap Trillium Line that the city has created. That is truly "future-proofed" when they don't have a clue how to double track it.

It's pretty obvious how to double track it (and the city knows that), it's just really expensive.

[JohnnyRenton]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

It is a whole lot better than the crap Trillium Line that the city has created. That is truly "future-proofed" when they don't have a clue how to double track it.

You mean the line that started off as a pilot project and has basically remained in that state since it was opened, save a few upgrades along the way?

The city knows what to do. It has long had a bigger vision for it. But luck hasn't been on its side. You have had groups of people that don't want to shut it down in order to modernize it, even that is exactly what needs to happen if anything other than miniscule upgrades are to be made. You have the satellite suburbs, and their voting influence, to push the city to send LRT there way first. And you have a limited amount of funds which left it squeezed out of the first phase of LRT construction.

The Trillium Line will eventually get what it deserves. I am very curious to see what exactly they plan on doing when they make their announcement on Feb 27. Its expansion will obviously be phased, and hopefully they get all the shutdowns done and over with in the first wave of expansion. I see the Trillium Line as being something the city will have to "sneakily" get done. And by that I mean they upgrade it a few hundred million at a time, under the radar of the larger suburban projects, until they can sell its completion (complete with a link to the airport and interlining (you can debate whether this will happen or if its a good idea, this is just what I think)) as a smallish but critical LRT package. I could be wrong, but this is the feeling I have gotten since the city went forward with its current LRT plans and construction.

[kmcamp]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

This is all hypothetical of course. Who knows what would have happened. But any tunnel plan needed to be future proofed as we have done. So, you would hope that a tunnel with the N/S route would have likewise been future proofed. It would be foolish to build a tunnel with insufficient capacity for future expansion of the network.

Like say Vancouver with their Canada line and it's silly short 40m platforms? Hopefully we wouldn't have been as foolish.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by JohnnyRenton

You mean the line that started off as a pilot project and has basically remained in that state since it was opened, save a few upgrades along the way?

The city knows what to do. It has long had a bigger vision for it. But luck hasn't been on its side. You have had groups of people that don't want to shut it down in order to modernize it, even that is exactly what needs to happen if anything other than miniscule upgrades are to be made. You have the satellite suburbs, and their voting influence, to push the city to send LRT there way first. And you have a limited amount of funds which left it squeezed out of the first phase of LRT construction.

The Trillium Line will eventually get what it deserves. I am very curious to see what exactly they plan on doing when they make their announcement on Feb 27. Its expansion will obviously be phased, and hopefully they get all the shutdowns done and over with in the first wave of expansion. I see the Trillium Line as being something the city will have to "sneakily" get done. And by that I mean they upgrade it a few hundred million at a time, under the radar of the larger suburban projects, until they can sell its completion (complete with a link to the airport and interlining (you can debate whether this will happen or if its a good idea, this is just what I think)) as a smallish but critical LRT package. I could be wrong, but this is the feeling I have gotten since the city went forward with its current LRT plans and construction.

They have no plans to double track. The experts have assured them that the current plan is good until 2048.

Of course, we are shutting down for 16 months in 2020, and we will be lucky if it is only 16 months. But this does not give us double tracking. It doesn't likely buy us better frequency either. It just allows for double length trains.

When we finally have no choice, the line will be down for 3 years, which was what they expected in 2006. We have been doing the easy stuff so far. It is when we fully double track that we will be facing tunneling, blasting, and several bridge replacements. And if we increase ridership to 30,000 or 40,000, how do we get those people to their destination efficiently? There are no parallel roads that won't increase travel times except by 50% or 100%.

In the meantime, we better watch out when building several new towers around Carling and Gladstone stations. Every tower that goes up will shorten the useful life of Phase 2.

The future proofing that we are building into the Confederation Line is not being done for the Trillium Line because of the priorities chosen by the city.

[J.OT13]

I wholeheartedly agree that Stage 2 Trillium falls way short of what is needed for now and into the future, especially considering the density proposed for the Bayview to Carleton section. The further we extend, the harder and more expensive it will be to double track and electrify. With the money being invested as part of Stage 2, they should be:

a. Double tracking from Bayview to the Airport or;
b. Double tracking and electrifying the current line, with the addition of Gladstone and Walkley.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

I wholeheartedly agree that Stage 2 Trillium falls way short of what is needed for now and into the future, especially considering the density proposed for the Bayview to Carleton section. The further we extend, the harder and more expensive it will be to double track and electrify. With the money being invested as part of Stage 2, they should be:

a. Double tracking from Bayview to the Airport or;
b. Double tracking and electrifying the current line, with the addition of Gladstone and Walkley.

Double tracking just needs to get past Hunt Club. A single track to the airport is sufficient. We are already double tracking much of the south end. At this point, single tracking anything but the airport spur doesn't make a whole lot of sense if we want a future proofed system.

Just remember that single tracking the airport spur will still allow airport trains to proceed to Bayview if double tracking is in place north of Hunt Club.

The chance of this happening in the foreseeable future is zero.

[kmcamp]

In the "why did they bother" department, they've removed the standard issue bus shelter at Parliament station and seem to be installing a fancier model like they have at Pimisi

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by kmcamp

In the "why did they bother" department, they've removed the standard issue bus shelter at Parliament station and seem to be installing a fancier model like they have at Pimisi

McKenney said it had something to do with "sightlines".

[JohnnyRenton]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

They have no plans to double track. The experts have assured them that the current plan is good until 2048.

Of course, we are shutting down for 16 months in 2020, and we will be lucky if it is only 16 months. But this does not give us double tracking. It doesn't likely buy us better frequency either. It just allows for double length trains.

When we finally have no choice, the line will be down for 3 years, which was what they expected in 2006. We have been doing the easy stuff so far. It is when we fully double track that we will be facing tunneling, blasting, and several bridge replacements. And if we increase ridership to 30,000 or 40,000, how do we get those people to their destination efficiently? There are no parallel roads that won't increase travel times except by 50% or 100%.

In the meantime, we better watch out when building several new towers around Carling and Gladstone stations. Every tower that goes up will shorten the useful life of Phase 2.

The future proofing that we are building into the Confederation Line is not being done for the Trillium Line because of the priorities chosen by the city.

Without going into every last detail of why, I will say that I think the Trillium Line wont be relegated to second class status for as long as people think. And a big part of it is the same reason that it has been pushed to the side, pressure from citizens.

The Transitway has already increased urban development in the Hintonburg/Tunney's Pasture/Westboro area. The LRT is only going to make it more desirable. And at some point, probably not too far away, those communities are going to start pushing back even more against development that "changes the character of the neighborhood beyond recognition" or however they put it. The same could be true of any of the satellite suburbs, who want an LRT, but could be quick to reject the extra development it starts to attract.

The Trillium Line can be used to ease both urban and suburban development pressures along the Confederation Line. And it can go to the airport, which will have its own subsection of citizens and businesses championing the idea. Just because the city hasn't gotten their way and been able to modernize the Trillium Line in a meaningful way doesn't mean it wont happen for decades to come. The right timing will come along soon enough.

[MountainView]

3D view of Lyon Station

Link here

Edit: if this was already shared - Sorry!

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by JohnnyRenton

The Transitway has already increased urban development in the Hintonburg/Tunney's Pasture/Westboro area.

How so?

[11a2b3]

Originally Posted by MountainView

3D view of Lyon Station

Link here

Edit: if this was already shared - Sorry!

Looks neat.

[lrt's friend]

CBC late night news confirmed that only 14 trains are fully operational. The remaining 20 have varying deficiencies including 2 trains that are in such poor shape that it is considered expedient to bring in two upgraded replacements. Effectively, it sounds like 2 trains are next to scrap or will take a long time to bring to operational condition.

There was some skepticism on how much testing has actually occurred during extreme weather.

Although an official update about the March 31st deadline will take place as part of a March 6th meeting, it was reported that we will probably know within a week.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

CBC late night news confirmed that only 14 trains are fully operational. The remaining 20 have varying deficiencies including 2 trains that are in such poor shape that it is considered expedient to bring in two upgraded replacements. Effectively, it sounds like 2 trains are next to scrap or will take a long time to bring to operational condition.

There was some skepticism on how much testing has actually occurred during extreme weather.

Although an official update about the March 31st deadline will take place as part of a March 6th meeting, it was reported that we will probably know within a week.

How can new trains be junk?
No, seriously, how can a company be allowed to deliver that are not operational?

Maybe I live in some dream world, but I think that if you deliver something, it should work when you deliver it.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

How can new trains be junk?
No, seriously, how can a company be allowed to deliver that are not operational?

Maybe I live in some dream world, but I think that if you deliver something, it should work when you deliver it.

Final assembly is done at the maintence facility in Ottawa.

[kmcamp]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

How can new trains be junk?
No, seriously, how can a company be allowed to deliver that are not operational?

Maybe I live in some dream world, but I think that if you deliver something, it should work when you deliver it.

I'd take the media reports with a grain of salt. They are on an attack angle right now, so they are being aggressively negative. For example the line that CBC is going with is "no proven track record". Incidentally the only two trains with a track record in our climate (Minneapolis specifically, which is even harsher than ours)are Bombardier's flexity and Siemens. I doubt things would have ended up much better with either. We'd be reading about Bombardier's general incompetence with various GTA projects or how were using a train that cost us tens of millions of dollars in cancellation fees when we aborted the 2006 plan.

The two "junk" trains are the ones they lost the parts for, and 10 are close to being certified, CBC is being overly dramatic.

That being said, obviously we have a problem since we're supposed to have 34, and I'm not letting Alstom of the hook.