Canadian Airport Thread

[wave46]

Originally Posted by Cage

AC network scheduling wants out of Beech operations. Even with no change due to WS Link, the routes would have still been cut.

I'm curious why AC wants out of the Beech operations.

Perception problems? Downside of some relatively recent events? Just not worth chasing marginal business?

[zahav]

Originally Posted by esquire

Wow, I'm surprised by the YYC-YWG upgauge. I flew from YYC-YWG not quite 2 weeks ago and it was on a Q400 instead of the scheduled CR9. I thought it was a sign of things to come. Nice to see a switch to a more comfortable 320 on at least some of the flights... super elites should be especially happy about that.

I always found the small RJs to YYC a bit surprising given that YYC is a fairly important hub for YWG travellers heading to the west coast, US southwest or increasingly, overseas.

Some of these adjustments result in seats changes different than the headlines say. For instance, replacing 3 DH3s for 2 Q400 is a small increase in seats still (ie. a route like YVR-YXC). But for a route like YYC-YWG, going mainline at 2x daily on a 320 is only 292 seats, while previously 4x daily CR-900 was 304. Again, small decrease in overall seats, so calling it an upgaguge is technically true for the equipment itself, it isn't actually a capacity increase.

Also looks like all the former DH3 routes from YVR are now DH4 (except YCG still? wonder if that will change). I think all routes see a capacity increase, some routes kept the same frequency but just upgauged to DH4, so that's a big increase in seats

[Denscity]

Hello from YCG! I wonder why we would be the only airport in BC to stick with the 3s? Challenging terrain? And I'm guessing this is a less efficient way to operate in any province?

[zahav]

Originally Posted by zahav

Some of these adjustments result in seats changes different than the headlines say. For instance, replacing 3 DH3s for 2 Q400 is a small increase in seats still (ie. a route like YVR-YXC). But for a route like YYC-YWG, going mainline at 2x daily on a 320 is only 292 seats, while previously 4x daily CR-900 was 304. Again, small decrease in overall seats, so calling it an upgaguge is technically true for the equipment itself, it isn't actually a capacity increase.

Also looks like all the former DH3 routes from YVR are now DH4 (except YCG still? wonder if that will change). I think all routes see a capacity increase, some routes kept the same frequency but just upgauged to DH4, so that's a big increase in seats

Sorry I misunderstood the firs tpost with the changes. The YYC-YWG is 320 on 2 flights, and then CRA-900 on the 3rd. So 4 down to 3, but cpacity increase from 304 to 368

[thenoflyzone]

Norwegian will close all FDF/PTP/CAY ops after winter 2018-2019 season. The whole venture wasn't profitable.

[p_xavier]

Originally Posted by thenoflyzone

Norwegian will close all FDF/PTP/CAY ops after winter 2018-2019 season. The whole venture wasn't profitable.

Not surprised at all.

[Cage]

Originally Posted by wave46

I'm curious why AC wants out of the Beech operations.

Perception problems? Downside of some relatively recent events? Just not worth chasing marginal business?

Reasons for getting out of the Beech ops.
(1) Historically unprofitable operation. Expectations are to transition to 74 seat operation as the floor for smallest capacity. DH3 50 seat ops are only sticking around cause the airplanes are well maintained. The Beech ops were primarily meant for maintaining a presence and to offer connection services.
(2) Pilot Shortage impacting operation at the tier 3 operators. AC and WS are expanding quite rapidly plus retirements are at record pace.
(3) AC has locked in great capacity purchase agreement rates with Jazz Aviation. Part of the appeal for Sky Regional and Air Georgian was to maintain competition so that Jazz didn't soak AC for cash.

[zahav]

The DH4 (78) is actually minimally higher capacity than the CR-900 (76). Difference is that the CRA has business class and DH4 is 100% economy. So I'm guessing AC uses it on routes with more business travellers and/or international connections, and the DH4 for the more localized or shorter routes

[Dominion301]

Originally Posted by nname

Big AC change this schedule update (all changes are in comparison to S19 schedule as of *last week*):

Mainline mid/long-hual equipment changes:
YYZ-FRA 789 replaces 77L
YYC-FRA 789 replaces 77L
YYC-YYZ 2x daily 763 replaces narrowbody
YVR-YYZ 77L replaces 77W
YYZ-SFO 77W replaces 789
YYZ-LAX 77L replaces 789

Additional frequencies:
YYZ-YYC 1x daily
YYZ-YOW 1x daily

Conversion to Mainline:
YYC-YHZ 1x daily 320 AC674
YYC-YWG 2x daily 320 AC286/8

Conversion to Rouge:
YYZ-YQM 3x daily 319 AC1502/4/6
YYZ-YQT 3x daily 319 AC1510/2/4
YUL-YQB 2x daily 319 AC1516/8
YUL-YYT 2x daily 319 AC1520/2
YYZ-YFC 2x daily 319 AC1524/6

Rouge A320 now placed on YYZ-YYG/YDF

Additional Express Frequency:
YYZ-DTW 1x daily E75
YYZ-STL 1x daily E75
YYZ-PHL 1x daily E75
YYZ-YAM 2x daily DH4
YYZ-YXU 2x daily DH3 (general downgauge from DH4)
YYZ-YYB 1x daily DH1
YYZ-YQG 4x daily DH1 (downgauge from DH4)

YOW-YYG 1x daily CRJ
YUL-YQM 1x daily DH4

Express Frequency Removed:
YYC-YQL 3x daily (upgauge BEH to DH3)
YYC-YXH 2x daily (upgauge BEH to DH3)
YYC-YXC 4x daily (route removed)
YYC-YKA 1x daily (upgauge DH3 to DH4)

YVR-YKA 1x daily (upgauge DH3 to DH4)
YVR-YXC 1x daily (upgauge DH3 to DH4)
YVR-YCD 1x daily (upgauge DH3 to DH4)
YVR-YYF 1x daily (upgauge DH3 to DH4)
YVR-YYD 1x daily (upgauge DH3 to DH4)

YUL-YQB 5x daily (partial conversion to Rouge)
YUL-YYT 2x daily (conversion to Rouge)

YYZ-YQM 5x daily (partial conversion to Rouge)
YYZ-YQT 6x daily (conversion to Rouge)
YYZ-YFC 4x daily (conversion to Rouge)
YYZ-BOS 2x daily (move to mainline in earlier updates)

YEG-YMM 1x daily (upgauge DH3 to DH4)
YWG-YQR 1x daily (upgauge DH3 to CR9)
YHZ-YQY 2x daily (upgauge DH3 to DH4)
YOW-YQB 1x daily (upgauge DH1 to DH3)
YQB-YZV 1x daily (upgauge DH1 to DH3)

Equipment change without change in frequency not listed

Any idea when these are going to appear on the website? For example, I did a dummy booking for YYZ-YFC in July and it's still showing all Express DH4s.

Originally Posted by zahav

The DH4 (78) is actually minimally higher capacity than the CR-900 (76). Difference is that the CRA has business class and DH4 is 100% economy. So I'm guessing AC uses it on routes with more business travellers and/or international connections, and the DH4 for the more localized or shorter routes

There's a few routes, at least in the east, where both the CR9 (ex-CRA) and DH4 are used, such as YOW-YHZ.

[Rogie]

Flair's new livery is green and black, no route announcements with the colour scheme, though they say the rebrand "includes plans for future growth"

https://westernaviationnews.com/2019/02/13/flair-airlines-gets-a-makeover/

[Base]

Love Flair but I do wish the one plane that is painted was ready to start flying with them immediately after this rollout (they said it comes over end of March from Amsterdam today). The new look is very recognizable though which is a good thing I would say.

[p_xavier]

Originally Posted by Base

Love Flair but I do wish the one plane that is painted was ready to start flying with them immediately after this rollout (they said it comes over end of March from Amsterdam today). The new look is very recognizable though which is a good thing I would say.

Basically Téo Taxi's colours. Hopefully it will not end up in the same fate...

[lubicon]

Originally Posted by Cage

Reasons for getting out of the Beech ops.
(1) Historically unprofitable operation. Expectations are to transition to 74 seat operation as the floor for smallest capacity. DH3 50 seat ops are only sticking around cause the airplanes are well maintained. The Beech ops were primarily meant for maintaining a presence and to offer connection services.
(2) Pilot Shortage impacting operation at the tier 3 operators. AC and WS are expanding quite rapidly plus retirements are at record pace.
(3) AC has locked in great capacity purchase agreement rates with Jazz Aviation. Part of the appeal for Sky Regional and Air Georgian was to maintain competition so that Jazz didn't soak AC for cash.

I find this interesting. Canada is a pretty small market and there are a lot of smaller centres that would be pretty hard pressed to support the 400 with any frequency. Maybe this opens things up for smaller carriers but in the short term it isolates smaller communities from the Air Canada network.

[wave46]

Originally Posted by lubicon

I find this interesting. Canada is a pretty small market and there are a lot of smaller centres that would be pretty hard pressed to support the 400 with any frequency. Maybe this opens things up for smaller carriers but in the short term it isolates smaller communities from the Air Canada network.

Definitely.

Once Jazz's DH3's age out post-refurbishment, I could see them moving to the ATR42 as a replacement. There's quite a few markets in Canada that really don't need the capacity of a Q400 that AC still could make money from.

Long-term, if the Q400 ends production, the ATR72 could be a replacement for that.

[SignalHillHiker]

So, a majority of my flights are booked for September. Roughly $700 for St. John's-Halifax-Dublin (it was direct when I booked it), and about $60 for Dublin-Edinburgh. I realize they're larger cities with economies of scale but damn the price difference hurts me. You can fly around Europe for pocket change once you're there, and our only (I believe?) direct flight is now Air Canada's obscenely overpriced one to Heathrow.

[zahav]

Originally Posted by wave46

Definitely.

Once Jazz's DH3's age out post-refurbishment, I could see them moving to the ATR42 as a replacement. There's quite a few markets in Canada that really don't need the capacity of a Q400 that AC still could make money from.

Long-term, if the Q400 ends production, the ATR72 could be a replacement for that.

At YVR, AC just transferred 90%+ of the DH3 ops to Q400s, including some very small centres that used to even get 18-seaters or DH1s in the old days. We already had no DH1s anymore, it's been all DH3 and increasingly Q400s. Now with this latest schedule change it's basically 100% Q400s. Not sure about the smaller centres out east, but AC doesn't seem to have an issue placing the 78 seater Q400 on the old small prop routes ex-YVR. We don't have any once daily frequencies on any AC Express routes either, all are at least twice daily and most more than that. But again, the smaller market traffic behaviour out here could be different than there, or maybe we are just a guinea pig to see if shifting to Q400s will work on all centres

[wave46]

Originally Posted by SignalHillHiker

So, a majority of my flights are booked for September. Roughly $700 for St. John's-Halifax-Dublin (it was direct when I booked it), and about $60 for Dublin-Edinburgh. I realize they're larger cities with economies of scale but damn the price difference hurts me. You can fly around Europe for pocket change once you're there, and our only (I believe?) direct flight is now Air Canada's obscenely overpriced one to Heathrow.

You're pretty much hosed if you want to fly direct anywhere other than London-Heathrow over the pond from St. John's

I'm curious - are you just connecting in Dublin? Or are you planning to travel around that part of Europe a bit?

[wave46]

Originally Posted by zahav

At YVR, AC just transferred 90%+ of the DH3 ops to Q400s, including some very small centres that used to even get 18-seaters or DH1s in the old days. We already had no DH1s anymore, it's been all DH3 and increasingly Q400s. Now with this latest schedule change it's basically 100% Q400s. Not sure about the smaller centres out east, but AC doesn't seem to have an issue placing the 78 seater Q400 on the old small prop routes ex-YVR. We don't have any once daily frequencies on any AC Express routes either, all are at least twice daily and most more than that. But again, the smaller market traffic behaviour out here could be different than there, or maybe we are just a guinea pig to see if shifting to Q400s will work on all centres

I'm quite surprised, given that BC has many destinations that are pretty small population-wise on AC Express.

Places like: Cranbrook, Castlegar, Penticton, Prince Rupert, Sandspit, Smithers and Terrace/Kitimat aren't that big.

Sure, I could see places like Prince George being upsized to a Q400. Perhaps due to their isolated nature, more people fly, but I'm curious about the economics of a Q400 vs. DH3 vs. DH1.

[SignalHillHiker]

Originally Posted by wave46

You're pretty much hosed if you want to fly direct anywhere other than London-Heathrow over the pond from St. John's

I'm curious - are you just connecting in Dublin? Or are you planning to travel around that part of Europe a bit?

I'm not sure yet. There's a couple dozen of us going for jeddy1989's wedding. Bachelor party is in Dublin, so there first. Then Edinburgh for the wedding. After that they're going on their honeymoon to the Canary Islands. My friend J. and I (the girl from all my hiking pictures) are both in the wedding party so we're doing the works. Then we are going to do whatever for the last week. I have family in Scotland and Ireland, as does she, including several we've met before, so we might do that. OR I'm trying to convince her to do Sarajevo and Mostar with me. Once you're in Europe it's easy. You couldn't spend a grand to get anywhere if you tried. So we have return flight to Dublin, but one-way to Edinburgh. We're free there Sept. 5, I believe, so then we can go wherever before returning to Dublin and Newfoundland.

It's a fun way to travel BTW, with a huge group. The wedding party is staying together in Dublin and Edinburgh so we've rented a whole house in the core of both cities, etc.

[wave46]

Originally Posted by SignalHillHiker

I'm not sure yet. There's a couple dozen of us going for jeddy1989's wedding. Bachelor party is in Dublin, so there first. Then Edinburgh for the wedding. After that they're going on their honeymoon to the Canary Islands. My friend J. and I (the girl from all my hiking pictures) are both in the wedding party so we're doing the works. Then we are going to do whatever for the last week. I have family in Scotland and Ireland, as does she, including several we've met before, so we might do that. OR I'm trying to convince her to do Sarajevo and Mostar with me. Once you're in Europe it's easy. You couldn't spend a grand to get anywhere if you tried. So we have return flight to Dublin, but one-way to Edinburgh. We're free there Sept. 5, I believe, so then we can go wherever before returning to Dublin and Newfoundland.

Nice! Enjoy your trip!

I can't offer much in the way of help (not that you need it, really) with respect to flights. Sadly Icelandair/WOW (the latter is on shaky ground, so I'd avoid them) doesn't offer anything to St. John's and getting to Halifax from St. John's is expensive unto itself.

Newfoundlanders get the short end of the stick, despite being the closest point to Europe. You either have to backtrack, or pay dearly and transit Heathrow.

I almost wonder if it was possible to set up something like Iceland has - using smaller, shorter-range airplanes and St. John's as a hub like Keflavik. It would be a cheaper operation (don't need expensive big planes and would be less fuel-intensive) and could also improve tourism on the Rock. Doubtless Air Canada and Westjet would stomp it out of existence, or the fog would completely screw up any operations though.