Confederation Line (Stage 1) | In Service 1.0

[lrt's friend]

Possible further delays confirmed on CBC Ottawa late night news. City Council meeting on Tuesday concerning this. RTG to be report directly to Council.

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Possible further delays confirmed on CBC Ottawa late night news. City Council meeting on Tuesday concerning this. RTG to be report directly to Council.

Not really "confirmed", just that RTG isn't answering questions on whether they'll meet the March 31st handover date... which for RTG seems par for the course (unfortunately).

RTG being summoned to Tuesday's meeting is definitely noteworthy though.

[kmcamp]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Possible further delays confirmed on CBC Ottawa late night news. City Council meeting on Tuesday concerning this. RTG to be report directly to Council.

I somehow feel this is going to be about money more than technical stuff. My crystal ball says due to unforseen problems x,y, and z they can't possibly open on time without more money, nor can they pay for the transit diversion.

I still have my doubts though that they can make the new handover date though, but i doubt we're talking months here, more like weeks

[lrt's friend]

CBC News this morning re-iterated that there 'may' be more delays. It was suggested that there is water seepage in the tunnel and there may be safety concerns. At this point, it is rather speculative so we need to take this with a grain of salt, but when there is smoke .........

We will know more on Tuesday, but RTG directly reporting to City Council is highly unusual. Information is usually filtered through the city's LRT office.

[AuxTown]

This is a big project and delays are to be expected. Is it fair to say that all of our delays to this point revolve around the tunnel? I hope phase 2 will be an easier roll out.

[zzptichka]

Well that ceiling on Rideau station looks like cheap — even more so up close. It's the one that was supposed to be all wood.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by mykl

Last night I had an interesting encounter with someone close to the project at a high level. They weren't willing to give full details obviously, but here's what I took from the conversation:

Get ready for another delay.

Apparently there are big issues and related to who will pay for various problems. They said — is going to hit the fan in a meeting on Monday, and tonight on CBC news they were talking about a major update coming on Tuesday.

Apparently there have been problems such as a fire at a substation. And everything, especially the catenary system is —, and the maintenance group will spend the next 30 years patching and fixing basically everything. The contract was written in a way that has allowed the system to be built at the bare minimum requested, which will screw the system as time goes on.

Also, regarding trains 33 and 34, whatever their issue is, it wasn't just a lost computer. Trains 35 and 36 were fast-tracked because 33 and 34 wont be ready.

Basically its just a disaster of issues and no one wants to take responsibility.

Called it.

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Wonder if the delay is related to discussion surrounding who will be on the hook for the sinkhole(s), the replacement of the Ash wood and, well, the delays. That along with anything else we might not know about.

I could understand the first few delays. Anything more than a year is too much. We're passing by an essentially completed transit line everyday and we can't use it. This is getting frustrating.

Fixed price contract is only fixed if there are no issues. As soon as there are cost overruns, the contract is torn up. It's like an insurance scam; you pay a premium for piece of mind and as soon as you make a claim, you're no longer covered for reasons xyz.

Based on what I know about the contract, and granted I don't know much, RTG should be paying for the February 2014 sinkhole, the material replacing the Ash they destroyed (including re-doing Rideau and Lyon in WOOD as originally agreed upon, not that cheap paneling) and their million dollar chump change penalties for not meeting the second (and maybe third?) deadline(s).

The City of Ottawa should pay for the additional year+ of bus detours.

The Rideau Street sinkhole is still up for debate.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Fixed price contract is only fixed if there are no issues. As soon as there are cost overruns, the contract is torn up. It's like an insurance scam; you pay a premium for piece of mind and as soon as you make a claim, you're no longer covered for reasons xyz.

Based on what I know about the contract, and granted I don't know much, RTG should be paying for the February 2014 sinkhole, the material replacing the Ash they destroyed (including re-doing Rideau and Lyon in WOOD as originally agreed upon, not that cheap paneling) and their million dollar chump change penalties for not meeting the second (and maybe third?) deadline(s).

The City of Ottawa should pay for the additional year+ of bus detours.

The Rideau Street sinkhole is still up for debate.

I think fixed price works if the incentives are properly structured, although you pay a huge premium for that certainly (which the city did not want to pay for).

I would assume that RTG lawyers have figured out what they have to pay for and what they don’t.

The problem here seem s to be that either staff didn’t understand the contract or they did not communicate what they knew to council and the public, or more likely they figured it was better to beg forgiveness than ask permission.

[Ottawaresident]

I think they should have the construction company pay for delays and reductions in quality

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by O-Town Hockey

This is a big project and delays are to be expected. Is it fair to say that all of our delays to this point revolve around the tunnel? I hope phase 2 will be an easier roll out.

I think proceeding with phase 2 before this is sorted out would be a terrible idea.

[J.OT13]

Without Stage 2, all we're left with is a stump in the middle of the city. Citizens will have no hope for the future of transit. Ridership will drop significantly.

IMO, it's crucial to start building ASAP. The contract and construction of Stage 2 have already been delayed a year. The more we wait, the more expensive it will be.

Some question how we can start Stage 2 when Stage 1 isn't yet open, but I don't see the correlation. The trades needed to start up Stage 2 aren't the same working on the final details of Stage 1. The early works probably won't be anywhere near the initial line.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Without Stage 2, all we're left with is a stump in the middle of the city. Citizens will have no hope for the future of transit. Ridership will drop significantly.

IMO, it's crucial to start building ASAP. The contract and construction of Stage 2 have already been delayed a year. The more we wait, the more expensive it will be.

Some question how we can start Stage 2 when Stage 1 isn't yet open, but I don't see the correlation. The trades needed to start up Stage 2 aren't the same working on the final details of Stage 1. The early works probably won't be anywhere near the initial line.

Because we havn’t sorted out what went wrong with phase 1. If staff sign the same type of contract again we could be in for years of delay and future costs.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Without Stage 2, all we're left with is a stump in the middle of the city. Citizens will have no hope for the future of transit. Ridership will drop significantly.

IMO, it's crucial to start building ASAP. The contract and construction of Stage 2 have already been delayed a year. The more we wait, the more expensive it will be.

Some question how we can start Stage 2 when Stage 1 isn't yet open, but I don't see the correlation. The trades needed to start up Stage 2 aren't the same working on the final details of Stage 1. The early works probably won't be anywhere near the initial line.

I tend to agree. Doing preliminary prep work is fine. I wouldn't start closing routes before Stage 1 is open, but I somehow doubt the delay will be that long (knock on wood).

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by acottawa

Because we havn’t sorted out what went wrong with phase 1. If staff sign the same type of contract again we could be in for years of delay and future costs.

I think we know what went wrong. We just haven't found solutions yet for the existing contract.

[Ottawaresident]

Originally Posted by roger1818

I tend to agree. Doing preliminary prep work is fine. I wouldn't start closing routes before Stage 1 is open, but I somehow doubt the delay will be that long (knock on wood).

Let's just say that the delay will be that long. The prep work is fine, but don't make the buses use the city streets before a proper contract is in place. And preferably, make that contract include high quality works and lots of penalties in case of delays or sinkholes like the Rideau Road one. But I don't think other than the section from Dominion to Lincoln Fields, there isn;t much tunneling.

[TransitZilla]

Originally Posted by mykl

RTG has subcontracted the maintenance contract to Rideau Transit Maintenance Group, so they can pack up and leave town, with the subcontractor on the hook for the actual maintenance. Here's a now-defunct job posting for maintenance workers.

https://www.indeed.ca/viewjob?jk=5debcf4b133b3176&from=tp-serp&tk=1d35ce6cva256802

I don't see how this is the City's problem. The city's contract with RTG is for construction + maintenance.

If it is going to cost RTG more money in the long run to maintain it, that is their issue.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by acottawa

Because we havn’t sorted out what went wrong with phase 1. If staff sign the same type of contract again we could be in for years of delay and future costs.

It's not the same type of contract though. The current contract includes the maintenance aspect. Furthermore, we've already signed with RTG for the maintenance of Stage 2 along with the additional trains.

In the case of Trillium, it is the same type of contract however, it's a much simpler project, greatly reducing the risks. We've also already purchased the new Stadler rolling stock.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by Ottawaresident

Let's just say that the delay will be that long. The prep work is fine, but don't make the buses use the city streets before a proper contract is in place. And preferably, make that contract include high quality works and lots of penalties in case of delays or sinkholes like the Rideau Road one. But I don't think other than the section from Dominion to Lincoln Fields, there isn;t much tunneling.

That and Cannaught Park (and Algonquin, but it's already built for the most part). Not that it matters, all of the Stage 2 tunneling will be cut-and-cover, which is much more straight forward than the mining technique used on Stage 1.

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

It's not the same type of contract though. The current contract includes the maintenance aspect. Furthermore, we've already signed with RTG for the maintenance of Stage 2 along with the additional trains.

In the case of Trillium, it is the same type of contract however, it's a much simpler project, greatly reducing the risks. We've also already purchased the new Stadler rolling stock.

If I'm not mistaken, the actual contract for the new trains will be signed along with the construction contract. They've made the decision, but they haven't officially purchased it yet.

There hasn't been a press release on Stadler's website (and they're usually pretty good at press releases) and when I emailed the Stage 2 team sometime last summer they indicated that the contract(s) hadn't actually been signed yet.

[J.OT13]

Good to know.

Singing now or delaying the contracts, both options are high risk. If we sign now not knowing how the heck we'll deal with the possible litigation issues with RTG, we could be burying ourselves in further problems down the line. If we delay, the Feds ad Province could pull out and/or costs could escalate quickly.

In any case, it's looking more and more like the Province won't commit to Stage 2, so they might be making the decision for us.

I wonder if this, the Stage 1 delays and uncertainties, is why the Province is delaying their commitment, which would make sense. Or, they want to shift the money for more subways for Toronto suburbs, which is more in line with Ford's way of operating.