Metro Vancouver Transit Discussion

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by waves

You are misunderstanding my qualms. The Canada Line will speed up trains to achieve to achieve the 25min end to end travel time, BUT, without Capstan Way, that travel time could be 23min with the trains sped up, and thus increase the pphpd capacity of the Canada Line.

2min travel time savings end to end for everyone else on the line vs. providing door to door service for a small number of individuals and boosting profits for developers.

Except that's not how it works.

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

That's really not a problem.

"The inclusion of additional stations into the train system will not compromise the terminus to terminus travel time – Waterfront to Brighouse or YVR Airport – of 25 minutes.

The Canada Line’s trains are capable of running at higher speeds, but the service is currently operating at slower speeds to maintain frequency schedules."

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

I thought the Canada Line had contractual end-to-end travel times, and any addition of future stations (like 33rd Ave) would be compensated for by speeding the train up a bit on the straight sections.

Basically the running of the Canada Line is contracted out (thank the P3 construction for that). If TransLink wants to run more / faster trains they have to pay extra fees for to do it. The only way they'll speed up the trains is if they add more stations to the line (see above).

[flipper316]

Originally Posted by Sheba

I get why they're doing the work but I had to sigh. Canada Line is the newest line and it's getting upgraded - meanwhile there are stations on the Expo (and possibly Millennium) Line that are missing up escalators.

So will Yaletown expand the faregates or not? What VCC needs is another entrance not an escalator.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by flipper316

So will Yaletown expand the faregates or not? What VCC needs is another entrance not an escalator.

Eh, I'd say City Centre needs both. The stairs can get pretty crowded at times... especially when the northbound train lets out.

[fredinno]

Originally Posted by Sheba

I get why they're doing the work but I had to sigh. Canada Line is the newest line and it's getting upgraded - meanwhile there are stations on the Expo (and possibly Millennium) Line that are missing up escalators.

You know how we underbuilt the Canada Line because no one thought it'd be as busy as it became? I mean, they already did work, or are doing work on the busiest Expo and Millennium Line stations already, the secondary stations aren't as crowded, and can wait. These are only downtown Canada Line stations anyways.

[waves]

Originally Posted by Sheba

Basically the running of the Canada Line is contracted out (thank the P3 construction for that). If TransLink wants to run more / faster trains they have to pay extra fees for to do it. The only way they'll speed up the trains is if they add more stations to the line (see above).

The contract has an end date. They likely won't need the extra capacity before the contract ends. When the contract ends, they can do whatever they like with the speeds.

[TransitJack]

Originally Posted by waves

The contract has an end date. They likely won't need the extra capacity before the contract ends. When the contract ends, they can do whatever they like with the speeds.

They will just renegotiate the current CA to include extra trains. I wouldn't expect it to be much different in cost then if they ran the system themselves. Extra trains, extra staff, extra maintenance, all has a cost that the operator will rightly expect to be compensated for. And if it was run by Translink, they would have similar costs when adding to the fleet/timetable.

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by waves

The contract has an end date. They likely won't need the extra capacity before the contract ends. When the contract ends, they can do whatever they like with the speeds.

Canada Line won't need extra capacity before July 2040? That's when the contract ends.

[waves]

Originally Posted by Sheba

Canada Line won't need extra capacity before July 2040? That's when the contract ends.

Extra capacity *needed* beyond 15,000 pphpd in 2040? Maybe. Canada Line runs 5500 with 6000 cap. Latent demand probably withholds more. We would need to see ridership double. But again, if we want Transit to be able to compete with the car, transit needs to be fast! Adding more trains may add capacity but it does nothing to address end to end speed. We should be striving for the fastest possible end to end time regardless of capacity requirements.

[Alex Mackinnon]

Originally Posted by Sheba

I get why they're doing the work but I had to sigh. Canada Line is the newest line and it's getting upgraded - meanwhile there are stations on the Expo (and possibly Millennium) Line that are missing up escalators.

The smaller stations have much less room available for people to wait around. They probably need the the additional egress capacity at these stations to be online before the train capacity can be upgraded.

If the ridership was equal compared to an Expo Line station, the Canada Line stations would be still using the station platform space twice as intensely. That effect is even more amplified by the headway on the Canada Line trains being longer, since there would be more passengers exiting per given train, which means more congestion.

I don't disagree that escalators should be rolled out all over the place, but there are limits to budgets and number of capital projects which can be run in parallel.

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by waves

Extra capacity *needed* beyond 15,000 pphpd in 2040? Maybe. Canada Line runs 5500 with 6000 cap. Latent demand probably withholds more. We would need to see ridership double. But again, if we want Transit to be able to compete with the car, transit needs to be fast! Adding more trains may add capacity but it does nothing to address end to end speed. We should be striving for the fastest possible end to end time regardless of capacity requirements.

You're still missing the point - TransLink doesn't have control of the Canada Line the same way it does the Expo and Millennium Lines. InTransitBC runs the Canada Line according to a contract. If TransLink wants to add more trains, increase speeds, etc before the contract says so, then TransLink has to pay InTransitBC a lot of money to do it. TransLink already pays to do it for special events - they're not going to want to for every day.

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by Alex Mackinnon

The smaller stations have much less room available for people to wait around. They probably need the the additional egress capacity at these stations to be online before the train capacity can be upgraded.

If the ridership was equal compared to an Expo Line station, the Canada Line stations would be still using the station platform space twice as intensely. That effect is even more amplified by the headway on the Canada Line trains being longer, since there would be more passengers exiting per given train, which means more congestion.

I don't disagree that escalators should be rolled out all over the place, but there are limits to budgets and number of capital projects which can be run in parallel.

I know - that's why I'm sighing.

[waves]

Originally Posted by Sheba

You're still missing the point - TransLink doesn't have control of the Canada Line the same way it does the Expo and Millennium Lines. InTransitBC runs the Canada Line according to a contract. If TransLink wants to add more trains, increase speeds, etc before the contract says so, then TransLink has to pay InTransitBC a lot of money to do it. TransLink already pays to do it for special events - they're not going to want to for every day.

You are misunderstanding me. I know about those things and wrote my previous comments already with that knoweldge.

[officedweller]

Side note - the YVR stations and guideway were 100% paid for (and are owned by) YVR.
So the new station at YVR would also be paid for by YVR.

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by officedweller

Side note - the YVR stations and guideway were 100% paid for (and are owned by) YVR.
So the new station at YVR would also be paid for by YVR.

Yes, that came up already.

[The_Henry_Man]

Originally Posted by waves

You are misunderstanding my qualms. The Canada Line will speed up trains to achieve to achieve the 25min end to end travel time, BUT, without Capstan Way, that travel time could be 23min with the trains sped up, and thus increase the pphpd capacity of the Canada Line.

2min travel time savings end to end for everyone else on the line vs. providing door to door service for a small number of individuals and boosting profits for developers.

I take the Skytrain Canada Line to work everyday from Richmond-Brighouse to Waterfront. The weird thing about the Canada Line trip times today is that when it first opened, A regular trip from Waterfront to Brighouse takes only 23 minutes (I actually recorded a video clip of that entire trip back in 12/2009). However, now these days, it takes on average 26-27min (they've considerably slowed down the stretches esp from Yaletown to Olympic Village and from Marine Dr to Bridgeport compared to when it first opened). I understand from what I've read from here that the trip time is longer due to slower speed of the trains due to adjusting for lower train frequency, but I don't understand why the trip time is THAT much longer now compared to 12/2009 (by 3 min), especially the number of stations back in 12/2009 is the same as it is now and that the train frequency is even less during rush hours back then compared to now.

[The_Henry_Man]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Eh, I'd say City Centre needs both. The stairs can get pretty crowded at times... especially when the northbound train lets out.

I'm hoping by the time the Millennium Line extension has started, Translink would consider knocking down the fake walls at the end of the Broadway-City Hall station platform to make it 50m, as it's already a very crowded station at the moment. I can't imagine what that'll be like when the M-line extension is completed. Also, the Bridgeport Station's platform is already overcrowded with long lineups heading northbound that's starting to over flow to the opposite platform during the morning rush hour. I hope Translink and InTransBC would start thinking about expanding that station's platform to 50m quite soon as well.

i think Broadway City Hall and Bridgeport Stations will be the first ones to see platform length extensions, possibly before the contractual-mandated extensions occurring after the train frequency has increased.

[cganuelas1995]

Originally Posted by The_Henry_Man

I'm hoping by the time the Millennium Line extension has started, Translink would consider knocking down the fake walls at the end of the Broadway-City Hall station platform to make it 50m, as it's already a very crowded station at the moment. I can't imagine what that'll be like when the M-line extension is completed. Also, the Bridgeport Station's platform is already overcrowded with long lineups heading northbound that's starting to over flow to the opposite platform during the morning rush hour. I hope Translink and InTransBC would start thinking about expanding that station's platform to 50m quite soon as well.

i think Broadway City Hall and Bridgeport Stations will be the first ones to see platform length extensions, possibly before the contractual-mandated extensions occurring after the train frequency has increased.

You might have to rebuild Bridgeport almost entirely. It's a centre platform flanked with switches on either end. I'm not sure how much space their is before you hit a switch.

[officedweller]

WRT Bridgeport - that's why Lougheed has the side platform for the Evergreen Extension (and Coquitlam Cnetral will have separate platforms for he PoCo spur) - so you aren't constrained with everyone on a centre platform - even if it does complicate train and passenger movements.

Maybe a Spanish solution for Bridgeport rather than length?
No use lengthening the platform past 50m when trains are maxed at 50m.

Originally Posted by The_Henry_Man

... but I don't understand why the trip time is THAT much longer now compared to 12/2009 (by 3 min), especially the number of stations back in 12/2009 is the same as it is now and that the train frequency is even less during rush hours back then compared to now.

My absolute guess is that they were running higher speeds in December 2009 as a test before the Olympics...

[The_Henry_Man]

Originally Posted by officedweller

WRT Bridgeport - that's why Lougheed has the side platform for the Evergreen Extension (and Coquitlam Cnetral will have separate platforms for he PoCo spur) - so you aren't constrained with everyone on a centre platform - even if it does complicate train and passenger movements.

Maybe a Spanish solution for Bridgeport rather than length?
No use lengthening the platform past 50m when trains are maxed at 50m.



My absolute guess is that they were running higher speeds in December 2009 as a test before the Olympics...

But I remembered from the design diagrams posted in here long time ago that the Bridgeport Station platform length has been designed for 40m to be lengthened to 50m in the future. But I think definitely do think that Richmond-Brighouse Station should be prime candidate for Spanish Solution platform in the future when all other methods of increasing capacity at that station has been done.

[Metro-One]

Originally Posted by cganuelas1995

You might have to rebuild Bridgeport almost entirely. It's a centre platform flanked with switches on either end. I'm not sure how much space their is before you hit a switch.

No you won’t, all stations that are currently 40 metres were designed to accommodate 10 metre expansions.