Metro Vancouver Transit Discussion

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by officedweller

M-Line, not Expo Line - and that one is the biggest disappointment in my view, give that Victoria Hill is practically built out (if not already built out) (i.e. New West dropped the ball, can't now tap the developer for funding).

You forget that Expo splits after Columbia Station - where the Woodlands station would be (roughly Columbia and McBride) is part of the Expo Line nowadays.

I agree it's disappointing that the station still isn't built, but to be fair they havent been getting developers to pitch in for a station for all that long. I suggested it to Burnaby around when the BC Parkway upgrades (that have barely happened) were being planned and it wasn't on the radar then (sometime around 2007).

[officedweller]

Originally Posted by Sheba

You forget that Expo splits after Columbia Station - where the Woodlands station would be (roughly Columbia and McBride) is part of the Expo Line nowadays.

I agree it's disappointing that the station still isn't built, but to be fair they havent been getting developers to pitch in for a station for all that long. I suggested it to Burnaby around when the BC Parkway upgrades (that have barely happened) were being planned and it wasn't on the radar then (sometime around 2007).

Ah, that's right, I was thinking project construction - rather than current operations.
I guess New Westminster never pushed for the station with the Province, either, and it's a pretty conservative city
(although it did authorize a joint venture with advertising on a pedestrian overpass somewhere (McBride?)).
i.e. Lake City Station was built in 2003 (public funding, I suppose)

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by officedweller

Ah, that's right, I was thinking project construction - rather than current operations.
I guess New Westminster never pushed for the station with the Province, either, and it's a pretty conservative city
(although it did authorize a joint venture with advertising on a pedestrian overpass somewhere (McBride?)).
i.e. Lake City Station was built in 2003 (public funding, I suppose)

New West had Wayne Wright as mayor from 2002 - 2014. This is when New West tried to have all their roads removed from the MRN and basically refused to do any road expansion (and wanted to keep single lane roads). Does that sound like a city that would push for an already proposed Skytrain station?

Since 2014 they've had Jonathan Cote as mayor (and current chair of the Mayors Council). Let's see if he proposes a Woodlands station when Area Transit Planning starts (Burnaby / New West is the next one).

Lake City Way was listed as a future station when they started building the Millennium Line, and yeah it would have been paid for the same as all the other stations on the line.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Millenium ridership was pathetic for the first ~10 years but it has been getting a lot busier.

Yeah, and that's almost entirely due to the Evergreen Extension bringing it within the reach of a lot more condos. Although the condo developments at Brentwood and Gilmore have also been and will continue to contribute.

[Sheba]

I have to say I think the proposed Capstan Way station is pointless. I copied this from the 2017 Transit Service Performance Review. It's the Total Station Boardings for each station (Waterfront and Commercial-Broadway are only listed on Expo Line).

Expo Line:
Waterfront - 12,077,600
Burrard - 7,006,900
Granville - 6,772,100
Stadium–Chinatown - 5,388,800
Main Street–Science World - 4,656,300
Commercial–Broadway - 8,031,200
Nanaimo - 2,212,800
29th Avenue - 2,312,300
Joyce–Collingwood - 4,651,000
Patterson - 1,710,600
Metrotown - 6,860,100
Royal Oak - 1,745,600
Edmonds - 3,676,400
22nd Street - 3,089,500
New Westminster - 4,679,300
Columbia - 1,519,100
Scott Road - 2,745,500
Gateway - 1,684,400
Surrey Central - 3,945,000
King George - 4,138,500

Sapperton - 932,600
Braid - 1,230,000


Millennium Line:
VCC–Clark - 965,800
Renfrew - 1,233,400
Rupert - 922,100
Gilmore - 1,135,200
Brentwood Town Centre - 1,650,000
Holdom - 1,004,800
Sperling–Burnaby Lake - 635,600
Lake City Way - 373,900
Production Way–University - 1,788,700
Lougheed Town Centre - 4,025,300
Burquitlam - 1,200,000
Moody Centre - 647,500
Inlet Centre - 608,400
Coquitlam Central - 1,310,400
Lincoln - 1,210,900
Lafarge Lake–Douglas - 833,700


Canada Line:
Vancouver City Centre - 6,081,700
Yaletown–Roundhouse - 3,449,000
Olympic Village - 1,628,800
Broadway–City Hall - 4,616,100
King Edward - 2,103,200
Oakridge–41st Avenue - 2,852,000
Langara–49th Avenue - 2,327,500
Marine Drive - 3,189,300
Bridgeport - 2,693,700
Aberdeen - 1,561,500
Lansdowne - 1,485,400
Richmond–Brighouse - 3,820,600

Templeton - 978,800
Sea Island Centre - 246,800
YVR–Airport - 2,636,800

Notice that most of almost all of the Millennium Line and the non-downtown Vancouver stations on the Canada Line have numbers that match with the low use stations on the Expo Line. I know Patterson and Royal Oak stations - they have barely any bus stops and are virtual dead zones, and yet they're busier than a lot of the non-Expo stations.

But somehow adding a station between a quiet station and a dead one is a good idea??? I could see the point if it was a really long distance between Bridgeport and Aberdeen stations but it's not - it's only about 1.5km. The distance between Patterson and Royal Oak is 2.2km. Are you trying to tell me that Capstan Way station is going to draw the number of people that Metrotown Station does?

[Migrant_Coconut]

I'd have to hesitate in calling Bridgeport or Aberdeen "quiet" and "dead," especially when they're outperforming most of Burnaby and New West. Not every station has to be a Metrotown.

There's another planned station for YVR, and that's the least useful part of the network. Nobody's upset about that one.

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

I'd have to hesitate in calling Bridgeport or Aberdeen "quiet" and "dead," especially when they're outperforming most of Burnaby and New West. Not every station has to be a Metrotown.

There's another planned station for YVR, and that's the least useful part of the network. Nobody's upset about that one.

I'm not expecting every station to be Metrotown - but if you're going to be adding stations it had better be somewhere that can draw a lot of people. Here's a list of the stations that are above 3,000,000 by each Skytrain line, not counting Waterfront or Commercial-Broadway as they're way above average.

Expo Line - Burrard, Granville, Stadium, Main Street, Joyce, Metrotown, Edmonds, 22nd Street, New Westminster, Surrey Central, King George

Millennium Line - Lougheed

Canada Line - Vancouver City Centre, Yaletown, Broadway–City Hall, Marine Drive, Brighouse


Edmonds (my home station) is busier than either Bridgeport or Aberdeen - and it's not exactly known for being abuzz with activity.

The reason people aren't upset about another station at the airport, from your 2015 article:

As the additional station is an airport requirement, the station’s construction costs would likely be funded by the Vancouver Airport Authority, which also covered the full $300-million cost to construct the Sea Island branch of the Canada Line.

It's hard for people to get up in arms over something they're not paying for.

[VancouverOfTheFuture]

Originally Posted by Sheba

It's hard for people to get up in arms over something they're not paying for.

yeah, okay, but the Capstan Way station is being 100% funded by the developers and the new condos being sold in the area???

so, unless you are buying into there, you aren't paying for Capstan Way either...

so could you please explain further??

[waves]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

I'd have to hesitate in calling Bridgeport or Aberdeen "quiet" and "dead," especially when they're outperforming most of Burnaby and New West. Not every station has to be a Metrotown.

There's another planned station for YVR, and that's the least useful part of the network. Nobody's upset about that one.

I am bothered by it. And I agree with Sheba. Unless Capstan is the next Metrotown, the impact on the max end to end travel time is not worth it. There is no real right answer to this other than that it's a question of priorities, and the weighting of priorities is fundamentally subjective.

[ilikeredheads]

The main problem is the distance. Capstan Way is around 600m and 850m from Aberdeen and Bridgeport respectively. There will be too much overlap. It's only about 5-10 min walk to Aberdeen, which is hardly enough of a deterrent to discourage people from taking transit.

It's bad enough we have too many bus stops that are too close too together in Vancouver. A lot of the trolley routes are a victim to this. We don't need a bus stop at every block, nor do we need one on BOTH sides of an intersection.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by Sheba

I'm not expecting every station to be Metrotown - but if you're going to be adding stations it had better be somewhere that can draw a lot of people. Here's a list of the stations that are above 3,000,000 by each Skytrain line, not counting Waterfront or Commercial-Broadway as they're way above average.

Expo Line - Burrard, Granville, Stadium, Main Street, Joyce, Metrotown, Edmonds, 22nd Street, New Westminster, Surrey Central, King George

Millennium Line - Lougheed

Canada Line - Vancouver City Centre, Yaletown, Broadway–City Hall, Marine Drive, Brighouse


Edmonds (my home station) is busier than either Bridgeport or Aberdeen - and it's not exactly known for being abuzz with activity.

... It's hard for people to get up in arms over something they're not paying for.

I dunno - that seems more like a rationale for tripling the Expo and running express service than for cancelling stations that were planned all along. If Woodlands were being funded by developers, would it matter how many daily riders (or lack thereof) it got?

Right, but to echo Future, we're not on the hook for Capstan either. And Terminal 3 Station isn't likely to get much more traffic.

Originally Posted by waves

I am bothered by it. And I agree with Sheba. Unless Capstan is the next Metrotown, the impact on the max end to end travel time is not worth it. There is no real right answer to this other than that it's a question of priorities, and the weighting of priorities is fundamentally subjective.

That's really not a problem.

"The inclusion of additional stations into the train system will not compromise the terminus to terminus travel time – Waterfront to Brighouse or YVR Airport – of 25 minutes.

The Canada Line’s trains are capable of running at higher speeds, but the service is currently operating at slower speeds to maintain frequency schedules."

Originally Posted by ilikeredheads

The main problem is the distance. Capstan Way is around 600m and 850m from Aberdeen and Bridgeport respectively. There will be too much overlap. It's only about 5-10 min walk to Aberdeen, which is hardly enough of a deterrent to discourage people from taking transit.

It's bad enough we have too many bus stops that are too close too together in Vancouver. A lot of the trolley routes are a victim to this. We don't need a bus stop at every block, nor do we need one on BOTH sides of an intersection.

Yes and no. 800m spacing is par for the course on the Canada: Waterfront, City Centre, Roundhouse, West 6th, West 9th (Broadway), 25th (King Ed), 33rd, 41st, 49th, 57th. Not sure why Capstan is any different.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by waves

I am bothered by it. And I agree with Sheba. Unless Capstan is the next Metrotown, the impact on the max end to end travel time is not worth it. There is no real right answer to this other than that it's a question of priorities, and the weighting of priorities is fundamentally subjective.

I thought the Canada Line had contractual end-to-end travel times, and any addition of future stations (like 33rd Ave) would be compensated for by speeding the train up a bit on the straight sections.

[NewfBC]

3 Downtown Canada Line stations adding escalators...
https://dailyhive.com/vancouver/canada-l...tTdgJZuX07dTXdl46orxp8psGrgFaUEMrfsJMsmc

Ron.

[fredinno]

Originally Posted by Sheba

Expo is the oldest line we have and is also the regional spine, so no surprise it's the busiest line. That doesn't mean the Millennium Line was a waste of money to build because it gets less usage (which has been going up since the Evergreen extension was built and will go up even more once the Broadway extension happens).

The Boundary station has come up on here before. That's where the station was originally planned to be but it ended up at Patterson instead. They're not going to add it in now as the spacing between stops would be waaaay too close. The only potential new stop on the Expo Line is Woodlands and I'd be surprised if it was built in the next 25 years.

It's about as large as the spacing between Patterson and Metrotown. Patterson isn't exactly empty, and it's within the Metrotown Town Centre area.

Originally Posted by waves

I found a website that allows you to make walkshed maps, so I put 10min walksheds around all the Metro Vancouver Stations including the Langley and UBC Extensions. https://www.oalley.net/map/j6i

Sadly the tool can't do smaller than 5min increments, otherwise I would have it show 8min polygons for ~600m walking.

I was curious to see how Capstan Way in particular would fit in with the pattern of other stations across Metro Van. As it turns out, about 75% of the area is within the walksheds of Aberdeen or Bridgeport.

The only other stations around Vancouver which are like this are:
- 75%+: Burrard/Granville/Vancouver City Center/Waterfront/Stadium
- 75%: Olympic Village (Broadway City Hall)
- 70%: Lincoln (Coquitlam City Center & Lake Lafarge)
- 60%: Great Northern Way (Main St. & VCC Clark)
- 60%: VCC Clark (Commercial Broadway & Great Northern Way)
- 60%: Columbia/New West
- 60%: King George (Surrey Center & 140 Street)
- 55%: Lansdowne (Brighouse & Aberdeen)

The rest are either 50% or less. The new stops of the UBC Line are all about 50% with each other up to Arbutus. VCC and Great Northern Way are two stations which probably could have been combined into one station, with the station situated between the two of them. Downtown Vancouver, Olympic Village, Lincoln and New West are all justified with them being town centers. Lansdowne is a good distance from Aberdeen but Brighouse should have been built just south of cook road to obtain the optimal 50% overlap.

So, from my perspective Capstan Way, does not serve a unique enough area, that is far enough away from neighboring stations to justify the detriment it will have on the system's capability to provide fast regional service. Transit oriented development is great and all, but people will not leave their cars if transit cannot be time competitive.

That's not that bad- it's going to be built out to a comparable density to Olympic Village.

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

I'd have to hesitate in calling Bridgeport or Aberdeen "quiet" and "dead," especially when they're outperforming most of Burnaby and New West. Not every station has to be a Metrotown.

There's another planned station for YVR, and that's the least useful part of the network. Nobody's upset about that one.

That's because it was supposed to serve a new Terminal for YVR.

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by VancouverOfTheFuture

yeah, okay, but the Capstan Way station is being 100% funded by the developers and the new condos being sold in the area???

so, unless you are buying into there, you aren't paying for Capstan Way either...

so could you please explain further??

Another station at the airport would be serving the airport (and not limited residential) - and it may well be pointless too.

Originally Posted by ilikeredheads

The main problem is the distance. Capstan Way is around 600m and 850m from Aberdeen and Bridgeport respectively. There will be too much overlap. It's only about 5-10 min walk to Aberdeen, which is hardly enough of a deterrent to discourage people from taking transit.

It's bad enough we have too many bus stops that are too close too together in Vancouver. A lot of the trolley routes are a victim to this. We don't need a bus stop at every block, nor do we need one on BOTH sides of an intersection.

Exactly

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by NewfBC

3 Downtown Canada Line stations adding escalators...
https://dailyhive.com/vancouver/canada-l...tTdgJZuX07dTXdl46orxp8psGrgFaUEMrfsJMsmc

Ron.

I get why they're doing the work but I had to sigh. Canada Line is the newest line and it's getting upgraded - meanwhile there are stations on the Expo (and possibly Millennium) Line that are missing up escalators.

[Aroundtheworld]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

I thought the Canada Line had contractual end-to-end travel times, and any addition of future stations (like 33rd Ave) would be compensated for by speeding the train up a bit on the straight sections.

You are correct. You can tell when riding the Canada Line that on many sections it is going at far lower than its maximum speed. When the new stations are added, it will go closer to its 80 km/h top speed.

[VancouverOfTheFuture]

Originally Posted by Sheba

Another station at the airport would be serving the airport (and not limited residential) - and it may well be pointless too.

i still dont see what your big issues is with this station.

1 - you stated waste of money; well it is free for TransLink
2 - you stated it would slow things down; not true, since the trains will be run faster to make up the difference.
3 - you say it is pointless; if it is costing 0 tax dollars, and doesn't slow down the service, does it really matter if you think it will be pointless?

fact of the matter is, that area is getting a ton of condos. there will be around 15-20 towers literally within 400m. and these are just the ones currently under construction, not possible futures ones such as where Canadian Tire is, or the strip-mall/car dealership. then there is that strip mall behind Canadian Tire which i am sure will get developed as well.

there will be thousands of new condo units in that area, and you have an issue with a transit station tax payers aren't paying for and which will NOT have any impact on travel times.

i just don't get it.


if, as a tax payer, we had to pay for it; sure, i would get it and i doubt TransLink would pay to put one there. but that isn't the case here plus it has 0 impact on travel times. so i really just don't get your position on being against it. it isn't taking away resources from some other project that is more needed.

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by VancouverOfTheFuture

i still dont see what your big issues is with this station.

1 - you stated waste of money; well it is free for TransLink
2 - you stated it would slow things down; not true, since the trains will be run faster to make up the difference.
3 - you say it is pointless; if it is costing 0 tax dollars, and doesn't slow down the service, does it really matter if you think it will be pointless?

1 - I didn't state it was a waste of money
2 - I didn't state it would slow things down

I stated:

Notice that most of almost all of the Millennium Line and the non-downtown Vancouver stations on the Canada Line have numbers that match with the low use stations on the Expo Line. I know Patterson and Royal Oak stations - they have barely any bus stops and are virtual dead zones, and yet they're busier than a lot of the non-Expo stations.

But somehow adding a station between a quiet station and a dead one is a good idea??? I could see the point if it was a really long distance between Bridgeport and Aberdeen stations but it's not - it's only about 1.5km. The distance between Patterson and Royal Oak is 2.2km. Are you trying to tell me that Capstan Way station is going to draw the number of people that Metrotown Station does?

3 - I was stating my opinion and why I think that - you're free to disagree.

[waves]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

That's really not a problem.

"The inclusion of additional stations into the train system will not compromise the terminus to terminus travel time – Waterfront to Brighouse or YVR Airport – of 25 minutes.

The Canada Line’s trains are capable of running at higher speeds, but the service is currently operating at slower speeds to maintain frequency schedules."

You are misunderstanding my qualms. The Canada Line will speed up trains to achieve to achieve the 25min end to end travel time, BUT, without Capstan Way, that travel time could be 23min with the trains sped up, and thus increase the pphpd capacity of the Canada Line.

2min travel time savings end to end for everyone else on the line vs. providing door to door service for a small number of individuals and boosting profits for developers.