CHICAGO: ORD & MDW discussion

[r18tdi]

Calatrava. All. Damn. Day.

Foster as runner up.

[ardecila]

Crain's published an interview today with Calatrava, he's already trying to burnish his image here. But even though I love the big moves in his design about uniting the terminals into a cohesive whole, and replacing the parking hellscape in the center with a place designed for humans and not vehicles, I just can't support Calatrava.

You can ignore the debacle at the WTC - NYC transit projects go shockingly overbudget with or without a fancy architect at the helm. But closer to home, the Milwaukee Art Museum still came in way over budget, and in a bad omen for O'Hare, Calatrava's expansion of the Denver airport went so bad they had to fire him and get Gensler to redesign it based on his sketches. That project was far less complex than the O'Hare one, basically just a midrise hotel and a ground-level train platform. When Denver officials realized they had to trim the budget by 25% to make the project happen, Calatrava balked and refused to change a thing. Eventually Denver officials just had to bribe him to go away, and for the rights to his sketches so another firm could come in and finish the job.


As the below article points out, he works best when he has a single client to persuade, and ideally a blank slate. Florida International seems like the kind of place with a single charismatic leader and lots of yes-men underneath, and their campus in central FL is definitely a blank slate. But O'Hare Airport could not be more different. Complex site, huge logistical challenges, politicians, unions, airlines, Feds, business travelers, concessionaires, the list of stakeholders and potential stumbling blocks goes on. I don't see how you can get anything done with the unyielding attitude Calatrava seems to have.
https://www.architectmagazine.com/design...versity-designed-by-santiago-calatrava_o

[galleyfox]

My first reaction was the Calatrava, but the more I look, the more I really, really like the Foster design. Especially since the architect is an avid pilot, and the terminal just has that classy feel of an earlier, more elegant era of flight. This design feels modern, but still rooted in the past much like the city itself.

In fact, it seems a thoughtful tribute to the TWA Flight Center.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Pf79qrl2gDA

[kbud]

Calatravia - looks great, but where is the parking garage?

After looking at the designs it makes me think that once they build the new satellite terminal C extension that they should tear down the old satellite c and extend the new satellite for more taxi space.

[F1 Tommy]

I like the Calatrava best but I do not like the size of the parking garage garden. They have no room for that big an open space on airport property. It looks nice but needs to be downsized. Hell, while they are at it why down they add some bike lanes and a rock climbing area

[lakeshoredrive]

Foster gets my vote.

[sentinel]

Originally Posted by Kngkyle

From the video. Damn.

Love it, looks like a futuristic airplane. Too bad it won't be selected as it blows the budget out of the water. And what I mean by that is, it may end up being the public favorite when the voting is all said and done, but the City may reserve the right to pick one of the other (read: cheaper) designs as the winner, and possibly have Calatrava design the expansion terminals as a consolation prize..

[Busy Bee]

Love the can't do attitude around here.

Outside of the main hall roof, what about the Calatrava plan looks like another Path station money pit? Also, where was the assumption/assertion that the Spire was also unbuildable for the budget it had?

[galleyfox]

Originally Posted by Busy Bee

Love the can't do attitude around here.

Outside of the main hall roof, what about the Calatrava plan looks like another Path station money pit? Also, where was the assumption/assertion that the Spire was also unbuildable for the budget it had?

It's not the design. It's Calatrava himself. His entire architectural career consists of projects that go way overbudget or completely ignore important practical features like ventilation or non-slippery walking surfaces.

For example those gardens, if you look closely, are actually rooftop gardens (perhaps parking garages? I'm not sure) linked by bridges to a new proposed convention, hotel, retail complex.

Clearly Calatrava wants them to look like the wings of a bird, but rooftop gardens are a different beast from ground-level parks. And what looks good from the sky isn't necessarily the best from the ground.

[nomarandlee]

Originally Posted by Busy Bee

Love the can't do attitude around here.

Outside of the main hall roof, what about the Calatrava plan looks like another Path station money pit? Also, where was the assumption/assertion that the Spire was also unbuildable for the budget it had?

Well, tearing down the current parking structures and building new underground ones (presumably) to replace them for one. I don't see any evidence of the ATS system in the renders. If that is replaced or moved that will cost huge money.

The amount of roof glass seems far more than any of the other proposals which has the potential to play havoc with climate control in summer and snow/ice removal in winter.

I don't know how one can't look at it and NOT see an extra billion dollars (conservatively) in just the preliminary renders.

One idea I do like from it though is the idea of a landside market place similar to Amsterdam/Munich. I'm fully for a redeveloped office/hotel component where the Hilton is if there is a market analysis that says it can fly but it should be done using as much of the present infrastructure as possible.

[sentinel]

Originally Posted by Busy Bee

Love the can't do attitude around here.

Outside of the main hall roof, what about the Calatrava plan looks like another Path station money pit? Also, where was the assumption/assertion that the Spire was also unbuildable for the budget it had?

Whatever - snappy quip aside, you and I both know how much money talks, especially when a project this massive will constantly be scrutinized over cost (and potential cost overruns).
My supposition is based on the fact that there still may be a large gulf between the most popular design and what is ultimately selected as the final design, because of money. Calatrava's designs ALWAYS incur major cost overruns because his designs, while beautiful always present unique engineering challenges for each building, which leads to unique construction challenges, etc, etc. The fact remains, many cost estimators and contractors have initial difficulty in providing pricing for projects like his because there isn't a typical cost basis benchmark that they're able to use as a reference.

[Busy Bee]

Haha. I knew I'd get some heat. Time will tell of course. I'm loving the "make no small plans" Calatrava concept. I guess I'm a dreamer though.

As for the ATS, that bitch needs to be underground anyway.

[Jim in Chicago]

I think we broke it. My vote got this response:

Form over quota
This form has passed it's allocated quota
and cannot be used at the moment.

Try contacting the owner of this form.

[nomarandlee]

Originally Posted by Jim in Chicago

I think we broke it. My vote got this response:

Form over quota
This form has passed it's allocated quota
and cannot be used at the moment.

Try contacting the owner of this form.

Though unofficial, of course, Curbed Chicago has a poll as well.
Not surprised that SOM is coming in last at the moment.

[sentinel]

Originally Posted by Busy Bee

Haha. I knew I'd get some heat. Time will tell of course. I'm loving the "make no small plans" Calatrava concept. I guess I'm a dreamer though.

As for the ATS, that bitch needs to be underground anyway.

I wasn't trying to be bitchy, sorry if it came off that way. Additionally, I LOVE the Calatrava design, even though I'm part of one of the other teams

I would love Calatrava to win AND to actually see his design built..the feasibility of his design (even with an initial $8.7 billion budget) makes me sweat a lil, tho..

[galleyfox]

Originally Posted by sentinel

I wasn't trying to be bitchy, sorry if it came off that way. Additionally, I LOVE the Calatrava design, even though I'm part of one of the other teams

I would love Calatrava to win AND to actually see his design built..the feasibility of his design (even with an initial $8.7 billion budget) makes me sweat a lil, tho..

Those are my thoughts. I'm actually pretty "meh" about the actual terminal in the Calatrava proposal, but the overall complex is very interesting as a big picture approach.

The City of Chicago should acquire the design rights and when the Hilton and Parking Garage reach the end of their lifespans, they can implement parts of the Calatrava.

[Baronvonellis]

Calatrava is my vote. He shows the ATS train in the video. The Milwaukee Art museum is a work of art itself. I don't care if it went over budget, it's amazing. If we could have O'hare be similar that would be incredible! Make no small plans! Driving in and out of Ohare now is pretty ugly, and not very welcoming. I wish they would tear down that ugly parking garage and put some kind of outdoor shopping and park, that would be so much nicer. Yea, something like the Munich airport outdoor shopping area would be great! I like the overall concept alot better that Calatrava came up with.

Second, I like the Foster design, it's very attractive as well.

Any of the designs are a big improvement over the present terminals.

[NikolasM]

The Calatrava is very pretty but you will be paying for it with more expensive airfare for decades when it inevitably goes miles over budget and the cost gets recovered with increased landing fees.

[cozy]

I laughed out loud during the SOM video. They made a rectangle hahahah. Also, second busiest airport in north america, one hammock is not a selling point for your architectural vision. who would want to sit on that nasty thing anyways, displaying themselves like a zoo animal to hundreds of travelers

On a serious note, I think I'll be voting for Gang because of how their alluring design incorporated so much flora throughout common areas. I have read many studies on the affects that green space has on humans mental health, and think it's a great. Though it might have just been fluff for the renderings which will never get incorporated, which would be unacceptable.

Calatrava is my favorite design of course, it is arguably the best. But if everybody in this thread has decided it can't be built on-budget, I totally believe it and would rather vote for the design that gets built.

Parking garage doesn't concern me in the slightest. By the time this terminal opens, mass adoption of autonomous vehicles will be on the horizon (uber everywhere for cheaper than cost of auto insurance, or be rich and own a car that drops you off and parks itself at home for free), and hopefully Boring Co. express tunnel will be under construction. Not saying a garage won't be utilized as soon as this thing opens, and as long as it stays open, just thinking about the "building for the future" aspect of designing something such as an airport.


Oh, and I would also be happy with the Foster proposal getting built.

[Fvn]

I thought Calatrava's WTC PATH station went over not because of the structure itself but because of last-minute security logistics and the fact that infrastructure projects in NYC always seem to go over more than other projects outside of the city/region (2nd Ave Subway/Fulton Center etc). Not saying it isn't possible for the budget to go up but I would think the actual terminal itself would be similar to build as Foster/Fentress' designs.