DENVER | Main Development Thread #7

[Agent Orange]

Originally Posted by Loretto Heights article

After the city planning department writes a plan with public input — a one-year process — elected officials will rezone the area. Then the developer will start building.

One year! Classic Denver, doing a study to determine how long it will take to create a plan, which will outline the steps necessary to develop a task force, who will lead a study, which will be considered by the Task Force Oversight Committee who will make a recommendation to the City Council. But the City Council will decline to follow the recommendation, because there won't be enough swingsets in yards.

As a mental exercise, what would have happened in 1915 if this property would have come on line? No zoning, no master plan. I'm guessing property owners would sell to developers who would decide the highest and best use of the property and it would become part of an everchanging, not trapped-in-a-snowglobe neighborhood. And that kind of neighborhood would be more interesting, more resilient, and more diverse than anything we're designing today. I kinda understand politically how we got here, after the atrocities of the mid 20th century, but the degree of public involvement in private development is madness.

Giving much of the decision making power to the existing nearby stakeholders empowers them to make selfish decisions. They’re not likely to make choices that are best for other parts of the city and for future, hypothetical newcomers to their neighborhood. As long as no one is eminent domain-ing your own private property, I don’t believe that this degree of “community involvement” is warranted. These are homeowners seeking to maintain scarcity in their biggest asset class, and they see the city’s role as playing asset manager.

Why not let the professionals have more input--the developer, the economist, the city planner, the philosopher, the environmentalist (not Bruce Finley).

[mhays]

People vilify developers, but they forget that the owners of apartment buildings have the opposite incentive...as little new competition as possible (except what they themselves develop, in some cases).

So really NIMBYs are in the pocket of the real estate barons, right? Or so the narrative could just as easily go.

[laniroj]

Originally Posted by Agent Orange

"...As a mental exercise, what would have happened in 1915 if this property would have come on line? No zoning, no master plan. I'm guessing property owners would sell to developers who would decide the highest and best use of the property and it would become part of an everchanging, not trapped-in-a-snowglobe neighborhood...I don’t believe that this degree of “community involvement” is warranted..."

We need an educational campaign that educates these I've got mine screw you people that all of our favorite places were designed and built before zoning stepped in to dictate. In fact, I can't think of a single neighborhood, area, destination (think Belmar) in greater Denver that is better planned and more loved than a single 1890-1930's neighborhood. Luckily for Denver, the core of the city has a plethora of these pre-zoning neighborhood gems. Not all cities, especially out west, are as lucky as the Queen City.

[laniroj]

If anyone is interested in some background on zoning, do some searching on the Equitable Building in NYC and how that precipitated a very notable american archy, Ernest Flagg, to essentially create our first zoning regulations. Fascinating how, back in the day, something like the Equitable Building was an abomination due to its large size and land bargyness. Can you imagine what the people of yesteryear would think of Denver's land barges going up today?!?!

[Cirrus]

Originally Posted by mhays

So really NIMBYs are in the pocket of the real estate barons, right? Or so the narrative could just as easily go.

It's so much worse than that.

Because the US social safety net is so terrible, homeownership takes its place. American homeowners who need to be able to cash out for a massive profit in order to afford retirement face a gigantic economic incentive to NIMBY their way into a housing shortage. The more inflated their home price becomes, the more secure their retirement years. America's lack of adequate social security has turned parents into economic enemies of their own children.

[TakeFive]

Originally Posted by Cirrus

It's so much worse than that.

Because the US social safety net is so terrible, homeownership takes its place. American homeowners who need to be able to cash out for a massive profit in order to afford retirement face a gigantic economic incentive to NIMBY their way into a housing shortage. The more inflated their home price becomes, the more secure their retirement years. America's lack of adequate social security has turned parents into economic enemies of their own children.

OMG... the conspiracy continues to fester and grow?

The US social safety net is so terrible is malarkey. I'd point more to other structural issues but this is not the place.

This is not something that just popped up recently. What is more recent is urban growth/densification on steroids and relative to Denver a focus on "Denver Infill." Going back decades people who are 'longer-timers' in their 'hood are more invested as opposed to those that see themselves just passing through. People have always been provincial in protecting their own neighborhood.

When it comes to 'change' all I can do is suggest to my 25-year-old he would be well served by changing a few of his 'bad' habits for more productive habits but (most) change can be very hard regardless of one's age.

It may not be rational but people have ALWAYS resisted change and especially the kind of change that might threaten their neighborhood profile for the worse.

Since I'm comfortable in all kind of places among all kind of people it's easy to forget that not everybody is like me. Off topic, but getting a wakeup call of how tribal many can be even in 2018 is an eye-opener.

[Cirrus]

Convenient that you get to absolve your generation of the effects of its choices, and anyone who brings it up is a conspiracy theorist, while at the same time blaming the younger generation for choices they're no longer able to make, and calling them out for being selfish and tribal.

Very convenient.

[TakeFive]

Originally Posted by Cirrus

Convenient that you get to absolve your generation of the effects of its choices, and anyone who brings it up is a conspiracy theorist, while at the same time blaming the younger generation for choices they're no longer able to make, and calling them out for being selfish and tribal.

Very convenient.

I think we have a misunderstanding but it's hard for me to understand specifically all of your points.

It wasn't my intent to absolve anybody of anything other than to say "the more things change the more they stay the same." I don't consider NIMBYism to be a recent or new event.

With respect to my reference on 'tribalism' did you even check out the link. I wasn't aware that age was even a factor other than perhaps (bad) things that get passed on from one generation to the next.

Retirement and SS are related topics. If there's two areas where I would agree with liberal nannyism is that All workers should be required to set aside a monthly percentage hopefully with a match so that SS is not all they have. Healthcare would be the second. Recently heard the story of a patient getting a surgery performed by an in-network doc and hospital. Problem was he was billed 4X as much by the assisting surgeon who was out-of-network; same with the anesthesiologist. The healthcare system is out of control and corrupt.

If there's something you think I'm not getting you're welcome to clarify your position; I may have misunderstood - or not, can't say but I'm not fond of conspiracies either left or right.

[SnyderBock]

Suspend 80% of the DoD's funding for 5 years and divert that funding to purchasing a home for every adult US Citizen that does not already own a home. For all US Citizens that currently are in a home mortgage, pay off the amount equal to the value of the home they would have been given, had they not already been purchasing a home. Any existing home owner who already owns their primary residence outright, and which suffered depreciation as a result of the program, would receive a social security payout credit which increases their monthly payout by the amount of depreciation divided by 168, to be paid out over 168 months. This would be a one time program with a duration of 5 years. After that, the program would be dissolved.

[laniroj]

Originally Posted by SnyderBock

Suspend 80% of the DoD's funding for 5 years and divert that funding to purchasing a home for every adult US Citizen

Assuming 122 million households at an average of $222,000 per home (zillow) that'd peg the cost at $28 trillion, so maybe the DoD savings can act as the 20% downpayment? Stated differently, about half the cost of what the Justice Democrats and Ocasio-Cortez want to spend in social programs...seems like a deal when you look at it that way.

[TakeFive]

Originally Posted by laniroj

Assuming 122 million households at an average of $222,000 per home (zillow) that'd peg the cost at $28 trillion, so maybe the DoD savings can act as the 20% downpayment? Stated differently, about half the cost of what the Justice Democrats and Ocasio-Cortez want to spend in social programs...seems like a deal when you look at it that way.

LOL, Ocasio-Cortez is a hoot; I may not share her philosophy but I love her moxy.

[CherryCreek]

Originally Posted by TakeFive

LOL, Ocasio-Cortez is a hoot; I may not share her philosophy but I love her moxy.

Hahah agreed! Almost all of what she says is from Never-never-land, but she says it with style and rubs wrongly the people I love to see rubbed wrongly!

[CastleScott]

The healthcare system is out of control and corrupt.

You got that right TakeFive, health care in the US was good back in the 90's and early 2000's but is now so corrupt and bad that its no wonder folks go to France, the U.K. and even Mexico for quality heath care-funny because many of the doctor's went to med school in the States (corrupt/bad health care is my pet peave and it's like the once great steel industry and high tech sector we had only to lose it overseas).
Good point!

[Ich]

In development news, second crane is up at the Rockies site. Also looks like Amli RiNo has broken ground.

[awholeparade]

This is crazy. I handle leasing for a developer/landlord and I can't imagine putting an isolated subsidiary on a lease for such a large amount of space AND more or less waiving the lease guarantee.

Originally Posted by CherryCreek

Although a move to larger companies does it appear to be real for WeWork, according the Seattle Times, companies with more than 1,000 employees still constitute only about 30% of their members.

https://www.seattletimes.com/business/wework-keeps-pushing-and-now-landlords-and-rivals-push-back/

The much juicier tidbit that's in the Seattle Times article is this:

There’s also concern about what happens if the economy turns. WeWork forms a subsidiary to represent each lease deal, which means individual locations could fold without leaving the company itself with much risk. The parent company only guarantees the lease for about six to 12 months on a 15-year agreement, according to documents associated with WeWork’s inaugural bond offering.


Brilliant. If this is broadly true across WeWork's properties than what they've been able to do is even more revolutionary than I thought:

Instead of simply assuming the recessionary risk from their tenants, they've largely (subject to six to 12 months rent) shifted that risk from tenants to landlords.

How cool is that?

[CastleScott]

In development news, second crane is up at the Rockies site. Also looks like Amli RiNo has broken ground.

Thanks-that's great news!

[TakeFive]

Originally Posted by CastleScott

You got that right TakeFive, health care in the US was good back in the 90's and early 2000's but is now so corrupt and bad that its no wonder folks go to France, the U.K. and even Mexico for quality heath care-funny because many of the doctor's went to med school in the States (corrupt/bad health care is my pet peave and it's like the once great steel industry and high tech sector we had only to lose it overseas).
Good point!

You can't imagine how grateful I am to now have Medicare coverage. Other than a mild heart attack and my annual visit to my cardiologist I don't use the system much. My three meds cost me about $60 a year, my 'specialist' appt costs me $30. Only slight negative is I have a little trouble always understanding the French-Asian accent of my doc. With three kids she probably works too many hours. But she's Brown Univ educated and sharp as a tack.

IMO everybody deserves to have the same reasonable care that I get.

[CastleScott]

^ Cool TakeFive I'm hopefully going to get Medicare this year as I'm retiring in the early spring-thank God (I may even still have part of my Federal employee plan since I'm vested in the Feds)!

[twister244]

Does anyone know if the Rockies overall design has changed since we got the first set of renderings? There was the ground breaking, but no real updated renderings.

[CherryCreek]

Denver Infill posted an update on 99 South Broadway - a 1/2 block development with mixed retail and residential.

https://denverinfill.com/blog/2019/01/99-south-broadway-update-2.html

There has been a lot of criticism on here (self included) of development in certain corridors (especially Tennyson Street and Welton Street areas), so its cool to be able to point to an infill project that adds a lot of density to a great neighborhood and urban corridor while actually improving the street and the neighborhood.

I think this is in that category, what a great design. Kudos to Nash Communities!

http://www.nashcommunities.com/projects/99-south-broadway