NEW YORK | 270 Park Ave | 1,389 FT | 57 FLOORS

[Zapatan]

I hope so,

Does she realize that we'd end up with a taller tower? I can't imagine she does...

Something tells me JP Morgan will get their way though.

[NYguy]

Originally Posted by Sloper

I hope they consider an elevated, open public space ala the Elevated Acre downtown. I know this is a concept discussed for Park Avenue in the past, could be the perfect site, albeit obviously on a smaller scale. One can dream.

That's a terrible solution.

Originally Posted by BoM Trespasser

Do Brewer's points about the need for more public space at the base space mean we could end up getting the taller option tower?

It would if she had any power to stop the text amendment. City Planning initially gave a "negative declaration", meaning they found no problem with it. Brewer's opinion, along with the communit board's, is only advisory. It's back to City Planning now, and will also go to the City Council, where I believe Keith Powers is the council member there now. I doubt the mayors office will have a reason to get involved, but the council could push for some changes.

But yeah, a larger, outdoor plaza would mean smaller floorplates, which would push up the height of the tower. That's what this is all about basically.

[Busy Bee]

Leaked rendering:


_

[Hudson11]

Originally Posted by Busy Bee

Leaked rendering:


_

nah, that's Sheldon Solow's 10 W 57th.

[Busy Bee]

Yeah it seemed like I'd seen that joke before...

[chris08876]

The open restrooms seem ideal. Its not unreasonable either. Sometimes it can be hard to find a bathroom if no Starbucks or McDonalds are present (sometimes McDonald makes you pay, but I just wait until someone comes out and be like "I'll get the door for you").

But yeah, more public restrooms are needed. Depending where in the city your at, it can be difficult to find one, especially when its an emergency.

On a side note, NY Penn needs more restrooms. For the amount of folks passing through, the restroom is a disgrace. Small, smelly, and there is a fan which blows the rich scented urine smell right back at the urinals. Natures Lysol.

[Barney Greengrass]

Originally Posted by NYguy

That's a terrible solution.

I cannot help your lack of imagination. Elevated public spaces can be wonderful and intriguing if done correctly, especially if the circulation up is an integral part of the experience. Imagine the Culver Steps spilling off Park Avenue. It also would be a nod to the fact the Avenue itself is basically a raised platform.

[NYguy]

Originally Posted by chris08876

The open restrooms seem ideal. Its not unreasonable either. Sometimes it can be hard to find a bathroom if no Starbucks or McDonalds are present (sometimes McDonald makes you pay, but I just wait until someone comes out and be like "I'll get the door for you").

But yeah, more public restrooms are needed. Depending where in the city your at, it can be difficult to find one, especially when its an emergency.

Public restrooms are needed all over the city. Should it be required now that all office buildings with public space - indoor or out - have them? That's an entirely separate issue that should be debated outside of whatever Chase is doing here. It's up to the City.

Originally Posted by Sloper

I cannot help your lack of imagination. Elevated public spaces can be wonderful and intriguing if done correctly, especially if the circulation up is an integral part of the experience. Imagine the Culver Steps spilling off Park Avenue. It also would be a nod to the fact the Avenue itself is basically a raised platform.

I cannot help your lack of common sense. These public plazas are underutilized as it is, yet you think the public is gonna take the extra step of schlepping up some escalator to get to one. Nice. It would be another waste of space, not to mention the fact that any elevated outdoor space will most likely be for Chase's own employees, given the nature of new office in the city.

No, the best option would be to have an indoor, climate controlled space that is welcoming year 'round, through rain, snow, freezing winter cold, or scorching summer heat. And if they can fit a restroom in there, fine. Beyond that, I don't see it as Chase's responsibility to cure all the district's needs. The City itself was going to close all of Vanderbilt Avenue to create a public space, but nobody in the area wanted that. So really, all this talk about need of a public space is just more talk.

[Busy Bee]

I demand a pooping palace dammit!

[NYguy]

Originally Posted by mousquet

My grandparents had these things in their old homes. That's how my fussy grandma taught me how to always keep my 🞵🞵🞵🞵 clean.

I couldn't tell whether it's actually necessary to be healthy. Apparently, lots of people don't care and won't die from the stinky 🞵🞵🞵🞵 stuck to their butts , but it's always been a matter of real comfort to me.

Completely unnecessary and unrelated to the topic at hand.



https://ny.curbed.com/2019/1/11/18178396/chase-midtown-270-park-avenue-gale-brewer-recommendation

Manhattan BP shoots down smaller public space at Chase’s new Midtown HQ
Manhattan Borough President Gale Brewer has weighed in


By Amy Plitt
Jan 11, 2019

Yesterday, Manhattan borough president Gale Brewer announced that she would not support the change without modifications to Chase’s new plans—namely, maintaining the mandated 10,000-square-foot size of the public space, along with the addition of public bathrooms and transit improvements.

Brewer’s recommendation is advisory in nature, but echoes concerns brought up by Community Board 5’s land use committee at a meeting last month: Chase, and the consultants it’s brought on to design the POPS (including Vishaan Chakrabarti), have not done enough to comply with the Midtown East public space requirement, and the public benefit being offered is not great enough to offset such a reduction in open space.

While both CB5 and Brewer’s recommendations are advisory, they could influence how the City Planning Commission and City Council—which approve zoning text amendments—ultimately decide to move forward. Chase hopes to begin construction on the new building sometime this year, so expect a decision to be rendered in the not-too-distant future.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-jpmor...hallenge-to-european-banks-idUSKBN1O41NO

[Zerton]

Originally Posted by NYguy

The City itself was going to close all of Vanderbilt Avenue to create a public space, but nobody in the area wanted that. So really, all this talk about need of a public space is just more talk.

Honestly that sounds like a great idea, imo. It could be as popular as the High Line and would offer great views of Grand Central. Why was it shot down? (Edit: I was confusing Vanderbilt Ave with that elevated section of Park Ave that wraps Grand Central. Imo making that into a park is a way better idea).

About Chase Tower - it is kind of crazy that the city is demanding so much of them on their own land. But I like the idea of keeping a public plaza. Imo an outdoor plaza is better than indoor.

[NYguy]

Originally Posted by Zerton

Honestly that sounds like a great idea, imo. It could be as popular as the High Line and would offer great views of Grand Central. Why was it shot down? (Edit: I was confusing Vanderbilt Ave with that elevated section of Park Ave that wraps Grand Central. Imo making that into a park is a way better idea).

There was push back from the area, so it was cut back to just the block between 1 Vanderbilt and Grand Central.


https://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/07/10/vanderbilt-littlest-of-avenues-may-soon-be-no-more/

Vanderbilt, Littlest of Avenues, May Soon Be No More



The Yale Club on Vanderbilt Avenue in Manhattan. There is usually a Lincoln Town Car out front.


BY MICHAEL M. GRYNBAUM AND CHRIS PALMER
JULY 10, 2012

There are small streets in Manhattan, and then there is Vanderbilt Avenue, diminutive prince of the street grid.

A five-block stretch of Midtown concrete, Vanderbilt — named for the aristocratic family that once ruled the nation’s railroads — sits astride the monumental western facade of Grand Central Terminal, and its denizens include Gilded Age redoubts like the Yale Club and the Roosevelt Hotel.

Under a plan being considered by the city, however, this little avenue may cease to be an avenue at all: instead, it would be shut to vehicular traffic and converted into a pedestrian plaza, the ad-hoc asphalt park that is a signature development of the Bloomberg administration.

The idea would be to create more open space in the congested commercial area around Grand Central, a neighborhood that is being considered for rezoning by the city. The Bloomberg administration wants developers to build more modern office towers in the area.

Vanderbilt Avenue sees far fewer cars than its full-size neighbors like Lexington and Madison Avenues, and many commuters who work in Midtown trudge to and from their trains along the route. That would make it a prime candidate for a plaza, which allows pedestrians to walk unimpeded by vehicular traffic.

Still, nostalgic New Yorkers have a way of resisting change, and it is unclear whether the avenue’s mainstays would be happy to see the wandering masses loitering at picnic tables on what is essentially their private drive.

“This is like limo city!” exclaimed Bruce Williams, who works on the avenue, as he watched a fleet of black and navy Lincoln Town Cars idle outside the Yale Club, awaiting passengers who were finishing lunches. A valet could be seen steering a Mercedes S.U.V. toward the building’s Vanderbilt entrance.

A woman standing next to him, who would not give her full name, completed the thought. “This is the Yale Club,” she said. “It’s famous for being on Vanderbilt Avenue.” If cars could no longer drop off or pick up members, she said, “That would kill them.”

.....Elsa Camacho, 32, the front desk manager at the Roosevelt Hotel, grimaced when told of the city’s proposal. “It’d be a huge mess,” she said. The hotel has its only service entrance on Vanderbilt, between 45th and 46th Streets, and its many deliveries – chandelier light bulbs, basketball-size flower bouquets, freshly purchased linens – would need to find a new way into the building.

“I think you got to stop and say, ‘What are the streets for?’,” the mayor said. “They are for transportation. What is the basic first kind of transportation? It’s walking. And then you should look after that, and see whether other things can fit in.”

“Here’s a neighborhood that could benefit having another place for people to congregate,” Mr. Bloomberg added. “There’s plenty of provisions on the side streets for buildings to get services. And you can rest assured we will make sure that emergency vehicles can get in.”

Aides at City Hall said the plaza plan was far from final. But Crain’s New York Business, which first reported the plan, said the proposal had the support of Amanda Burden, the city’s powerful director of city planning.

Here's an earlier plan from the Midtown East rezoning that closed Vanderbilt Avenue, and would have left at least one of the blocks on Vanderbilt open to traffic, but it was passed up as well. It actually terminates where the outdoor plaza for 270 Park is supposed to be located...





But the City did move forward with other pedestrian plazas in the area, including the recently built plazas south of Grand Central, and the planned partial closure of East 43rd St...


http://gothamist.com/2017/09/30/east_43rd_shared_street.php#photo-4

A mini golf/croquet set, book kiosk, benches and tables, plus a jazz band, greeted pedestrians on an East Midtown street near Grand Central Terminal as the Department of Transportation unveiled a sneak peek of a future pedestrian friendly zone on Friday. Transportation Commissioner Polly Trottenberg said it "will be an amazing public public space in the heart of one of the densest parts of New York City."

East 43rd Street between Lexington and 3rd Avenues will be the city's latest "Shared Street," and during the temporary street closure on Friday, the DOT and Grand Central Partnership detailed their plans, which will provide increased sidewalk space and limited vehicle access (only pickups and deliveries allowed, at a speed limit of 5 MPH). Tables, chairs, and planters situated on the block will also encourage pedestrians to linger over their lunches and enjoy the fresh air directly across from Grand Central.

If Vanderbilt Avenue were closed as previously planned, there really wouldn't be a need for a plaza on the Chase site...



https://nypost.com/2014/09/08/a-sneak-peek-at-one-vanderbilt-public-space/


One Vanderbilt's indoor connection to Grand Central is somewhat similar to what Chase has been planning with their indoor plaza, the the Chase Plaza would function more as a plaza with seating and food.

About Chase Tower - it is kind of crazy that the city is demanding so much of them on their own land. But I like the idea of keeping a public plaza. Imo an outdoor plaza is better than indoor.

An outdoor plaza may sound nice, but the reality is that it would only be nice on limited days. We all know New York gets a variety of weather - cold, hot, wet, windy - that renders plazas useless, even more so than they already are. I like the idea of something that would be welcoming year round.

But if there were to be an outdoor plaza, the alternative location on 47th Street is not a good one. I say they should either build the indoor plaza as planned, or put the outdoor plaza on Park Avenue. And maybe they could put an outdoor sculpture of some sort there, something that would draw pedestrians over to that side. Park Avenue is not the most welcoming place for pedestrians, even though you would think it would be just the opposite. I know that would hamper Chase's main entrance, but they could maybe work something out if it came to that.

[Zerton]

^ Thanks for the detailed response NYGuy.

I think the park would be a great idea if only between 1 Vanderbilt and Grand Central. No doubt that's an area with a ton of pedestrian traffic as is.

[NYguy]

Originally Posted by Zerton

^ Thanks for the detailed response NYGuy.

I think the park would be a great idea if only between 1 Vanderbilt and Grand Central. No doubt that's an area with a ton of pedestrian traffic as is.

The plaza between Vanderbilt and GCT is definitely being built. Whatever happens with the mandated Chase plaza is being worked out as we speak. I'm confident in a solution either way.


Seagram's Park Avenue plaza...

[NYguy]

Some quotes from an article on POPS, both indoor and outdoor spaces, something to think about as we debate what type of public space we want on the Chase site...


http://www.thereviewatnyu.com/all/2016/1...-life-the-privatization-of-public-spaces

OUR CHANGING URBAN LIFE: THE PRIVATIZATION OF PUBLIC SPACES

Michael DeLuca
November 27, 2017

.....privately-owned public spaces, or POPS, are an increasingly popular source of the parks, plazas, and arcades that we now move through, representing approximately 80 acres across 550 spaces.

.....As the Equitable Building serves a landmark in the development of the City’s 1916 Zoning Resolution, so might the Seagram Building (375 Park Avenue, Ludwig Mies van der Rohe, 1958) serve as a catalyst for the 1961 Resolution.

.....Instead of building straight up from the street and gradually setting the upper floors back, pursuant to the 1916 Resolution, Mies set the base of his building back and built straight up......His plan for the Seagram Building created a large plaza in the front of the building. This feature is something we take for granted in front of office buildings today, but the plaza represented an important innovation at a time when every square foot of office space was held sacred. During the day, Mies’ plaza attracts pedestrians, office-workers on lunch breaks, and tourists exploring the City.

The erection of the Seagram Building in 1958 offered a model for building design as well as for the sort of public spaces that can coexist with modern skyscrapers. While city planners had been considering a revision to the 1916 Resolution as early as 1948, it was an appreciation for the Seagram Building, as well as an increasing sense that the City was changing and zoning rules would have to change with it that led to the 1961 Zoning Resolution.

The 1961 Resolution for the first time included a mechanism called incentive zoning. Incentive zoning allows for building developers to receive zoning concessions if they provide some defined amount of space for public use. Practically this means that developers can offer a plaza in front of their building (like in front of the Seagram Building), or open their lobby to the public (like in Trump Tower or BlackRock’s Park Avenue Plaza), or establish a park adjacent to the property (like Zuccotti Park), and in return they could add rentable space to their building, beyond what the zoning rules normally allowed.

From 1961 to 2000, this sort of incentive zoning created 3.5 million square feet of public space in exchange for 16 million square feet of private floor space (10% of Central Park versus six Empire State Buildings, for perspective). (1) Despite the discrepancy in what the public received versus what developers were offered in concessions, POPS were still seen as full of potential. As years passed, however, it became clear that building owners were neglecting or closing off these spaces. As Jerold S. Kayden of Harvard University, the leader of this niche field, his Advocates for Privately Owned Public Spaces, and the Municipal Art Society found in their 2000 study, POPS are often of low quality, and a significant number of owners illegally privatize their public spaces.

1 Pace Plaza



The sign at West Plaza at 8 Spruce Street

Matt Chaban at The New York Times visited a POPS at the Knave, a cafe inside Manhattan’s Le Parker Meridien hotel. He found that the hotel prohibited outside food and drinks - the City forbids such a practice. (10) BlackRock’s Park Avenue Plaza is slightly more welcoming, offering a public atrium with a Starbucks.

The Starbucks at Park Avenue Plaza



Another view of Park Avenue Plaza

The area around Zuccotti Park offers an opportunity to experience every problem with these spaces that you can imagine. In fact, the Equitable Building that spurred planners and activists in 1916 is diagonal Zuccotti Park. Across the street from the Park and adjacent to the Equitable Building is the Marine Midland Building (140 Broadway, Gordon Bunshaft of Skidmore, Owings & Merrill, 1967) featuring a public plaza that is host to Isamu Noguchi's Red Cube. This plaza is, quite simply, a sad space. There is no seating or amenities whatsoever. Noguchi’s Cube is the only redeeming feature, but it’s hard to imagine the building owners intended it to be an attraction. If they wanted people to enjoy the space, would they have included a placard on the ground stating “Property of 140 Broadway - Crossing Permission is Revocable at Will”?

Midland Plaza

If you go around the corner from the Marine Midland Building to the plaza surrounding 28 Liberty Plaza, fka One Chase Manhattan Plaza (28 Liberty Plaza, Gordon Bunshaft, Skidmore, Owings & Merrill, 1961) you’ll find a plaza that has the potential to be successful because of the ample amenities it provides, but one that is elevated so high above the street and is so girded by the rules of the building owner that it can hardly be enjoyed.

28 Liberty Plaza

Similarly, walk by 100 William Street and take a look at Marvel Architects’s public lobby space. The design firm’s website proudly declares it “[t]he transformation of this dated, dark and uninviting lobby and walkthrough atrium at 100 William Street,” (12) but you’d be hard pressed to have any fun there if you catch a glimpse of the list of rules as you enter from the street. The list notes that, among other things, “lying down, or sitting anywhere other than benches, is prohibited.” Also, my favorite: “No noise.”

100 William Street



The rules and regulations at 100 William Street

[JMKeynes]

The proposed public space for 550 Madison looks really beautiful.

[NYguy]

Here it is folks, DOB filing for demolition...


http://a810-bisweb.nyc.gov/bisweb/JobsQu...passjobnumber=123656640&passdocnumber=01

01/15/2019

FULL DEMOLITION OF 52 STORY TOWER STRUCTURE AND 13 STORY PODIUM STRUCTURE USING PARTIAL MECHANICAL EQUIPMENT

[JMKeynes]

I hope that something great rises here.

[aaron38]

If the city wants there to be public space on this site, then the city should buy the land, zone it as sidewalk, adjust the property lines, and put in public amenities as the city sees fit. And adjust the taking of property taxes accordingly.

No government has the right to declare my front yard a public park and demand I let people picnic there. Not if it's my land.
The zoning process is out of hand, and private-public spaces are the worst idea. Governments being lazy and pushing their duties off on others.

(Also, don't expect Starbucks bathrooms to be free and open forever. Starbucks employees are already refusing to clean them due to finding heroin needles, etc)

[NYguy]

Originally Posted by aaron38

If the city wants there to be public space on this site, then the city should buy the land, zone it as sidewalk, adjust the property lines, and put in public amenities as the city sees fit. And adjust the taking of property taxes accordingly.

People say the developers of these new buildings should pay because they are getting "something for nothing". Meanwhile, in return the City is getting much needed office space that will not only keep businesses in town, but steer and retain them in the areas the City wants them to be in. So both sides are getting something.

This district could have died a natural death, as more companies moved out to where the new and modern office space is located, or left the city altogether. But the City realized all it had to do was rezone the area, like it has been doing all around town. Except in this case, much like the Hudson Yards, it wouldn't come without a cost. The City could have just upzoned the area outright, but decided developers would pay a cost if they wanted to utilize any rezoning there. So like in the Hudson Yards, they're already paying for that increased FAR.

The money for the air rights goes for maintenance of area landmarks, but there is also the fee the City gets, which is for improvement of the general area. In the case of this tower, that would be about $42 million, just tip money I guess to some of the critics.






Anyway, now that we have official filing for demo, a look at some of the equipment that will be used...