Rural Commuter Rail

[roger1818]

Personally, I don't really care about the technical details (which is surprising as I normally thrive on technical details) about the feasibility of Moose getting enough financing to proceed. I don't have no plans to invest and thus have no skin in the game.

As a resident of Ottawa, I do have two concerns though:

By far my biggest concern is the effect it will have on the Trillium Line. If Moose plans to pay to have the track from Greenboro to Bayview twinned and not interfere with existing and future line 2 trains, then this concern goes away.

However, in a previous post, Joseph Potvin suggested that they expect that city will abandon this stretch of track in favour of Moose trains (see post #652). This would necessitate yet another transfer for anyone using the Trillium line (including the Stage 2 south extensions) south of Greenboro.

Other options of having the city pay to double track the line or sharing a single track line with the Trillium line are equally problematic.

My second concern regards what happens if Moose goes ahead but ends up not being viable in the long term and goes bankrupt? Would the people who use the train suddenly have to find another mode of transportation? Would the government step in and bail out this "essential service" and thus burden the taxpayers? We don't know the answer, but I don't see any good options.
I know Joseph Potvin will say his business model is perfect and it will never go bankrupt, but I am not convinced.

[Allandale25]

Originally Posted by roger1818

Personally, I don't really care about the technical details (which is surprising as I normally thrive on technical details) about the feasibility of Moose getting enough financing to proceed. I don't have no plans to invest and thus have no skin in the game.

As a resident of Ottawa, I do have two concerns though:

By far my biggest concern is the effect it will have on the Trillium Line. If Moose plans to pay to have the track from Greenboro to Bayview twinned and not interfere with existing and future line 2 trains, then this concern goes away.

However, in a previous post, Joseph Potvin suggested that they expect that city will abandon this stretch of track in favour of Moose trains (see post #652). This would necessitate yet another transfer for anyone using the Trillium line (including the Stage 2 south extensions) south of Greenboro.

Other options of having the city pay to double track the line or sharing a single track line with the Trillium line are equally problematic.

My second concern regards what happens if Moose goes ahead but ends up not being viable in the long term and goes bankrupt? Would the people who use the train suddenly have to find another mode of transportation? Would the government step in and bail out this "essential service" and thus burden the taxpayers? We don't know the answer, but I don't see any good options.
I know Joseph Potvin will say his business model is perfect and it will never go bankrupt, but I am not convinced.

Great to have that post document. I wasn't reading and posting here in 2017 so I wasn't aware he said that. I'm sure I've seen other posts since then where he's tried to claim the Moose Plan wouldn't interfere or require changes to the City's plan. Also, how much of the Trillium Line is supposed to be double tracked? In other words, are they planning on double tracking any additional portions? Wouldn't there need to be a third track to allow for the Stage 2 plan as well as a Moose service?

[JohnnyRenton]

Originally Posted by Joseph Potvin

But it will be for the LRT operators to justify to the mobile public why passengers arriving comfortably into the core area on high-capacity trains should have to disembark and crowd onto low-capacity trains. We expect any terribly inconvenient and entirely unnecessary capacity bottleneck of that type to last, at most, one election cycle.

So the people buying new condos being built at existing and future Trillium line stations is not a justification for the line? The needs of the thousands using the Trillium line each day will be outweighed by the hundreds using Moose? The needs of the people living in the city, contributing taxes, and contributing to its life, are going to give way to the people who live outside the city limits and just come to work 9-5?

This is the equivalent of Toronto giving up a subway line so that it can funnel more people from the 905 into the city via GO. On top of that, the subway has started to just be extended into the 905, just as Ottawa or Gatineau's LRT could one day serve some places outside its borders (though Ottawa is so massive this will take a while, though the same was true of the subway in Toronto). Ottawa just giving up on the Trillium is never going to happen. And the citizens of Ottawa will be fighting for it, not against it.

[Joseph Potvin]

Originally Posted by roger1818

By far my biggest concern is the effect it will have on the Trillium Line.

Question: Which version of the Trillium Line do you prefer. There original version designed by RMOC that carried right on through to the Gatineau Airport, or the one you have today truncated at Bayview? MOOSE prefers the inter-provincial version. So does the NCC, and so did Collennette's Task Force.

Originally Posted by roger1818

in a previous post, Joseph Potvin suggested that they expect that city will abandon this stretch of track in favour of Moose trains (see post #652).

Hmm, so often here, participants choose paraphrase over quote, and attribute their paraphrases to me. In the post you at least refer to I said "Most likely such incongruities will get resolved ahead of time".

Originally Posted by roger1818

Other options of having the city pay to double track the linem/showpost.php?p=7937995&postcount=652"]652[/URL]).

If the City needs it great. If MOOSE needs that. we'd finance it. Is that a problem?

Originally Posted by roger1818

My second concern regards what happens if Moose goes ahead but ends up not being viable in the long term ... Would the government step in and bail out this "essential service" and thus burden the taxpayers?"

Well, if the voters want that...

Originally Posted by roger1818

I know Joseph Potvin will say his business model is perfect and it will never go bankrupt, but I am not convinced.

It's startling that you can know what a guy would say even though he's never said anything like that.

How about another business model: Just get federal and provincial governments to conjure up a few billion dollars (from where ever those imaginary tokens come from) to rebuild the central electric LRT that the private sector originally installed but that government ripped out few decades ago. Ideally, put that new one waaay underground to maximize cost.

Joseph Potvin
Director General | Directeur général
Moose Consortium (Mobility Ottawa-Outaouais: Systems & Enterprises) | www.letsgomoose.com
Consortium Moose (Mobilité Outaouais-Ottawa: Systèmes & Enterprises) | www.onyvamoose.com

[Joseph Potvin]

Originally Posted by JohnnyRenton

This is the equivalent of Toronto giving up a subway line so that it can funnel more people from the 905 into the city via GO.

Toronto, Montreal, Vancouver, etc etc have both central LRT and regional trains. If you require the two to be in opposition, then sure, that will be a mess.

Can you imagine a scenario in which central LRT and regional rail operate in synergy for the entire population of Canada's Capital? We can.

Joseph Potvin
Director General | Directeur général
Moose Consortium (Mobility Ottawa-Outaouais: Systems & Enterprises) | www.letsgomoose.com
Consortium Moose (Mobilité Outaouais-Ottawa: Systèmes & Enterprises) | www.onyvamoose.com

[Charles5]

Originally Posted by Joseph Potvin

Hmm, so often here, participants choose paraphrase over quote, and attribute their paraphrases to me. In the post you at least refer to I said "Most likely such incongruities will get resolved ahead of time".

Of which you yourself are now guilty, maybe more specifically taking things out of context.

The exact quote is "Most likely such incongruities will get resolved ahead of time, since there are several places those LRTs can be re-deployed as feeder systems into a main line for overall system efficiency."

In what world is 're-deploying' those LRTs onto other feeder lines that would feed into the main line where MOOSE would be operating not the same as 'abandoning' the Trillium Line in favour of MOOSE trains?

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by Joseph Potvin

Toronto, Montreal, Vancouver, etc etc have both central LRT and regional trains. If you require the two to be in opposition, then sure, that will be a mess.

Can you imagine a scenario in which central LRT and regional rail operate in synergy for the entire population of Canada's Capital? We can.

Where is there “central LRT” in Toronto? You mean the streetcar?

Why don’t you publish your proposed schedule for the Capital Railways track where the “Central LRT” and regional rail can operate in synergy?

[JohnnyRenton]

Originally Posted by Joseph Potvin

Can you imagine a scenario in which central LRT and regional rail operate in synergy for the entire population of Canada's Capital? We can.

Yes, I can imagine that scenario. But it doesn't happen at the expense of critical local transit (the Trillium line does not end up hobbled, or shut down). It actually directly serves at least a few of the key employment areas people want to go to. And it isn't funded through some "clever" taxation of property values, it has to largely recover its cost through the fare box, and stand on its own two feet. And it is tied in with smart planning practices, which municipalities carefully craft to create sustainable development (ala the compact city), while not increasing the cost of housing for people who live and work locally in the communities it serves.

It is a vision built on pragmatic, carefully coordinated planning. And it doesn't matter that it wont happen tomorrow. The future of transportation in Ottawa and Gatineau for the next decade is clear. As long as someone takes the reigns and starts the long term planning in the next 5 or 10 years, a future commuter rail system will be well within reach.

[Joseph Potvin]

Originally Posted by JohnnyRenton

As long as someone takes the reigns and starts the long term planning in the next 5 or 10 years, a future commuter rail system will be well within reach.

Great, let's make a list of those who are actually working on creating such a thing for the NCR as a whole:

1. NCC (sort of, at least describing it)
2. MOOSE (start-up)
3. ... anybody else?

BTW, we keep in touch with the NCC regularly. Our concepts are well-aligned. See their 9 January 2019 submission to the Section 40 process.

Joseph Potvin
Director General | Directeur général
Moose Consortium (Mobility Ottawa-Outaouais: Systems & Enterprises) | www.letsgomoose.com
Consortium Moose (Mobilité Outaouais-Ottawa: Systèmes & Enterprises) | www.onyvamoose.com

[Joseph Potvin]

Originally Posted by JohnnyRenton

Yes, I can imagine that scenario. But it doesn't happen at the expense of critical local transit.

"a scenario in which central LRT and regional rail operate in synergy for the entire population of Canada's Capital" ... "doesn't happen at the expense of critical local transit".

Glad we agree.

Joseph Potvin
Director General | Directeur général
Moose Consortium (Mobility Ottawa-Outaouais: Systems & Enterprises) | www.letsgomoose.com
Consortium Moose (Mobilité Outaouais-Ottawa: Systèmes & Enterprises) | www.onyvamoose.com

[JohnnyRenton]

Originally Posted by Joseph Potvin

Great, let's make a list of those who are actually working on creating such a thing for the NCR as a whole:

1. NCC (sort of, at least describing it)
2. MOOSE (start-up)
3. ... anybody else?

BTW, we keep in touch with the NCC regularly. Our concepts are well-aligned. See their 9 January 2019 submission to the Section 40 process.

Joseph Potvin
Director General | Directeur général
Moose Consortium (Mobility Ottawa-Outaouais: Systems & Enterprises) | www.letsgomoose.com
Consortium Moose (Mobilité Outaouais-Ottawa: Systèmes & Enterprises) | www.onyvamoose.com

Here is what they say in that comment:

"The Strategy recommended interim and longer term rail transit opportunities for the Prince of Wales Bridge - extension of O-Train services across river to enhance network connectivity and/or minimize transfers for interprovincial passengers traveling between Gatineau and west or south Ottawa, and in the longer term the replacement of o-Train services by north-south LRT service. The Strategy identifies sufficient capacity on the Bridge for the O-Train extension, with some refurbishment to satisfy current standards and codes.

In addition, the Strategy identified the potential for incorporating a cantilevered structure from the Bridge to accommodate interprovincial pedestrian and cycling access. Longer term future upgrading of the Bridge would be required for a second track to accommodate more frequent north-south LRT service."

The way I read that, they are not opposed to LRT service on the bridge. They actually say that they see the replacement of the current O-Train with an LRT service that crosses the bridge on two tracks, one of which is cantilevered off the current bridge.

So they seem to support future use of the bridge, but for LRT. So unless there is a plan for Moose to share the corridor with LRT, without impacting LRT service, I don't see how those visions align, based on what they have stated, and endorsed, in that memo.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Joseph Potvin

First link:
Have you got anything that will actually validate your opinion that all regional rail will inevitably result in greater sprawl than automobile/bus systems do?

GO Transit.

According to you no sprawl should result from the expansion of regional rail service.

Explain the 905 to me.

I could waste my time doing tons of research. But why waste time on an ideologue? Like I said earlier, you see what you want to see. The only hilarious bit here is that you think potential investors see what you see. I am just trying to ascertain whether you are lying to yourself or you're just a true believer unwittingly lying to them.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by roger1818

However, in a previous post, Joseph Potvin suggested that they expect that city will abandon this stretch of track in favour of Moose trains (see post #652). This would necessitate yet another transfer for anyone using the Trillium line (including the Stage 2 south extensions) south of Greenboro.

It was posts like that (and you'll see I was pretty incredulous around that post) that convinced me that MOOSE does not have my best interest (as an Ottawa resident at heart).

He's only backed off that line because he's finally starting to understand how ridiculous he sounds and how much that talk gets backs up.

[Joseph Potvin]

Originally Posted by JohnnyRenton

a plan for Moose to share the corridor with LRT

Of course. There are several ways to do that. Look even at the original configuration of the Alexandra Bridge.

Originally Posted by JohnnyRenton

without impacting LRT service

Without positive impacts either?? It seems you continue to assume the only potential scenarios are from neutral to bad, with the result that planning for positive synergy is ruled out as nonsensical. Well, I don't expect you'd say that, but your requirement of 'no impact' does at least rule out system-level optimization.

Joseph Potvin
Director General | Directeur général
Moose Consortium (Mobility Ottawa-Outaouais: Systems & Enterprises) | www.letsgomoose.com
Consortium Moose (Mobilité Outaouais-Ottawa: Systèmes & Enterprises) | www.onyvamoose.com

[Joseph Potvin]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

According to you no sprawl should result from the expansion of regional rail service.

1. Not significantly more than automobiles without regional rail, sometimes more, sometimes less.
2. The laws, regulations, policies, business designs and particular contexts influence how the results will actual occur through time.

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

I could waste my time doing tons of research.

Clearly you don't.

I do! Way too much actually.

Joseph Potvin
Director General | Directeur général
Moose Consortium (Mobility Ottawa-Outaouais: Systems & Enterprises) | www.letsgomoose.com
Consortium Moose (Mobilité Outaouais-Ottawa: Systèmes & Enterprises) | www.onyvamoose.com

[Gat-Train]

I find it somewhat bizarre that so many people are spending so much time poo-poohing an idea that they believe (for good reason) will never work.

More importantly, I think it's worth discussing the possibility of regional rail, especially for those of us that like visiting places like Gatineau Park and the ski hills, and would like to do so without driving. The Wakefield Train was a boon for tourism in Chelsea. I think it's time we stop viewing passenger and freight rail service as private entities and started seeing them as public goods, the same way we view roads and electricity. Having regional rail service could really help to boost tourism in the NCR, and if the increased tourism revenue is larger than the cost to maintain such a service I would gladly support my taxes funding regional rail.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Joseph Potvin

1. Not significantly more than automobiles without regional rail, sometimes more, sometimes less.
2. The laws, regulations, policies, business designs and particular contexts influence how the results will actual occur through time.

So you have nothing to offer but sprawl because there's nothing you have that is different from the 905 at all.

Thank you for making my point.

Originally Posted by Joseph Potvin

Clearly you don't.

I do! Way too much actually.

And yet so many holes in your plan.

[Joseph Potvin]

Originally Posted by Gat-Train

I think it's time we stop viewing passenger and freight rail service as private entities and started seeing them as public goods

Unfortunately, the NCC does not act on the powers it does have in Section 13, and even if it did, it's empowered to create but not to operate an NCR railway.

The two categories you name are not mutually exclusive.


Joseph Potvin
Director General | Directeur général
Moose Consortium (Mobility Ottawa-Outaouais: Systems & Enterprises) | www.letsgomoose.com
Consortium Moose (Mobilité Outaouais-Ottawa: Systèmes & Enterprises) | www.onyvamoose.com

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by Allandale25

Great to have that post document. I wasn't reading and posting here in 2017 so I wasn't aware he said that. I'm sure I've seen other posts since then where he's tried to claim the Moose Plan wouldn't interfere or require changes to the City's plan. Also, how much of the Trillium Line is supposed to be double tracked? In other words, are they planning on double tracking any additional portions? Wouldn't there need to be a third track to allow for the Stage 2 plan as well as a Moose service?

The only double tracking on the existing line that will be done for Stage 2 is just North of Carling Station to Bayview Station. The remainder will be single track with some extended passing tracks.

There shouldn't need to be a third track given the details we have right now. The city runs trains every 12 minutes (and will continue to do so post-Stage 2) which means 5 trains per hour per direction meaning a throughput of 10 trains per hour. The corridor is capped (and will continue to be capped) at this capacity until further upgrades (i.e. double tracking) are done.

MOOSE is proposing to run hourly trains originating from each of the 6 terminal stations so there would be 6 trains going through the city per hour, however one of those lines never uses the Trillium Line corridor meaning that there would be 4 additional trains per hour on the corridor.

Double tracking usually increases capacity to slightly above double, so we can assume that a double tracked Trillium Line corridor would allow for at least 20 trains per hour which is more than enough for both.

Triple tracking would be required if either organization wanted to run significantly more trains but that wouldn't be for a very long time.

Originally Posted by JohnnyRenton

Yes, I can imagine that scenario. But it doesn't happen at the expense of critical local transit (the Trillium line does not end up hobbled, or shut down). It actually directly serves at least a few of the key employment areas people want to go to. And it isn't funded through some "clever" taxation of property values, it has to largely recover its cost through the fare box, and stand on its own two feet. And it is tied in with smart planning practices, which municipalities carefully craft to create sustainable development (ala the compact city), while not increasing the cost of housing for people who live and work locally in the communities it serves.

Woah now, let's not get carried away. The Trillium Line's primary customers are students at Carleton. You might get at most 20 passengers per train who ride the line through Carleton at peak periods. The city plans to maintain the current service (albeit with longer trains) and given the above MOOSE's service shouldn't affect that. In fact, dare I say that students would be better off with a combined OC Transpo/MOOSE service? Just saying.

Full disclosure, I am a student at Carleton and I take the Trillium Line every day but I don't live anywhere near an area that MOOSE is targeting. My local station would be Walkley.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Gat-Train

I find it somewhat bizarre that so many people are spending so much time poo-poohing an idea that they believe (for good reason) will never work.

Gish gallop.

Mr. Potvin sprays — all over in the hopes we get exhausted calling him out. Very Trumpian.

Originally Posted by Gat-Train

More importantly, I think it's worth discussing the possibility of regional rail, especially for those of us that like visiting places like Gatineau Park and the ski hills, and would like to do so without driving.

There's a lot of things worth discussing. Whether they are worth diverting public resources towards is another matter though.

I don't know why the concept of opportunity cost is so difficult for these forums. You want regional rail. Tell me what other transit development you're willing to sacrifice for it. Should Gatineau give up their LRT plan or what about cut bus frequencies?

Originally Posted by Gat-Train

The Wakefield Train was a boon for tourism in Chelsea.

Such a boon that it couldn't pay for itself and neither the town or tourism operators in the area couldn't be bothered subsidizing it.

Originally Posted by Gat-Train

I think it's time we stop viewing passenger and freight rail service as private entities and started seeing them as public goods,

Great. How much are you willing to see taxes go up to fulfill this vision? And do you think your neighbours will agree to the same?

I actually do wish we could fund all these dreams. But I know most people aren't willing to pay what I'd be willing to pay in taxes to get all this built.