Highways in Canada

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

Q: ON-11 or ON-17, which one should we twin (assuming there's political will)?

A: Hook up a trailer to the back of the pickup truck and get from one Bay to the other Bay. Then you can understand which is more of a better highway to upgrade.

I was curious enough to google map it, and from Toronto it seems the 17 is shorter by ~45 minutes at least.

For the record, Google says the best way to Thunder Bay if you want to have nice divided freeways is to take the 402 west to Sarnia and the 75 north to Sault Ste Marie; that's the only path where most of your Toronto-ThunderBay trip will be on roads with full freeway standards.

[PEI highway guy]

Originally Posted by lio45

I was curious enough to google map it, and from Toronto it seems the 17 is shorter by ~45 minutes at least.

For the record, Google says the best way to Thunder Bay if you want to have nice divided freeways is to take the 402 west to Sarnia and the 75 north to Sault Ste Marie; that's the only path where most of your Toronto-ThunderBay trip will be on roads with full freeway standards.

if you do not have a passport, and many do not, this is not an option.

[lio45]

Actually birth certificate only still works when entering the U.S. by land. I've spent nearly one year without a passport (from the time my enhanced driver's license expired last spring, to now - I used my brand new passport for the first time two days ago) and I've crossed the border maybe 15-20 times in the meantime, with a 100% success rate (worst I've had was comments like "you're aware that if we decided to be dicks, we wouldn't have to let you in?").

Though, that's a secondary point, since I'd guess most traveling Canadians have passports. The people who don't have passports are unlikely to go on such long trips. Generally speaking only, of course.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by lio45

The 40 in Montreal (even in the East) was always signed "Ottawa-Hull" westbound, at least for as long as I remember (into the 1990s). The 20 westbound was signed "Toronto" at least as far east as east of the Turcot interchange.

.

I am an old guy, remember.

The "40 OUEST Vaudreuil" and "20 OUEST Dorion" directional signage was in the 1980s and even the 1970s.

[Dengler Avenue]

@lio45

TCH in Northern Ontario are mainly truck routes though. Sure we can extend 417 (as I’ve always been adamant about), but having trucks go through mountain passes once again after they have to deal with Coquihalla Pass is dubious.

Credits to swimmer_spe for changing my mind (and my profile picture).

Personally, if I get a job in western Canada though, I’ll definitely move through TCH even if it’s winter. I just need places with wifi to check for road closures.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by lio45

One thing I know for sure (passing there quite often) is that in Albany the 'control city' for 87 north is Montreal (87 south is NYC). That's probably the same distance as Toronto, and similar emptiness.

Back in the 80s or 90s, there was a big green official NYDOT sign on I-90 (the New York State Thruway) as you approached I-87 near Albany, that said in French "Province de Québec - PROCHAINE SORTIE".

I guess they didn't want people to get lost. AFAIK that sign is no longer there.

[wave46]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

If I had the magic wand, I would have the 407 go to QEW via the current 403, and the current 403 not make the curve, but go straight to Hamilton. It would actually make 403 one continuous highway.

For magic wand time, I'd do the following:

- Redesign the 401-427 interchange to allow the connection of the 2 Collector-Express segments in Peel region and Toronto.
- Redesign the 401-400 interchange to allow direct access to and from the Express and Collector lanes
- Provide a consistent cross section of lanes across the Toronto area

There's probably more, but these are my gripes.

[wave46]

Originally Posted by lio45

I was curious enough to google map it, and from Toronto it seems the 17 is shorter by ~45 minutes at least.

Like most things in life: it depends.

For a car in the summertime, use 17. It's far more scenic and interesting drive than 11 and you have much less truck traffic.

For a tractor-trailer or car in the winter, use 11. You avoid the worst of the weather off the lake and the grades involved.

[Dengler Avenue]

York Region? You mean Peel Region right?

[wave46]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

York Region? You mean Peel Region right?

I mean Peel region. Whoops.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

@lio45

TCH in Northern Ontario are mainly truck routes though. Sure we can extend 417 (as I’ve always been adamant about), but having trucks go through mountain passes once again after they have to deal with Coquihalla Pass is dubious.

Credits to swimmer_spe for changing my mind (and my profile picture).

Personally, if I get a job in western Canada though, I’ll definitely move through TCH even if it’s winter. I just need places with wifi to check for road closures.

You still haven't answered your own question though which one is superior, 11 or 17?

11 seems straighter, and if most of the trans-Northern-Ontario traffic volume originated from North Bay and points east, then that's probably the best choice, but 17 is shorter, and is already partially freeway on a good section, both huge pros for it.

Basically, you made me curious now...

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I am an old guy, remember.

The "40 OUEST Vaudreuil" and "20 OUEST Dorion" directional signage was in the 1980s and even the 1970s.

Originally Posted by Acajack

Back in the 80s or 90s, there was a big green official NYDOT sign on I-90 (the New York State Thruway) as you approached I-87 near Albany, that said in French "Province de Québec - PROCHAINE SORTIE".

I guess they didn't want people to get lost. AFAIK that sign is no longer there.

I don't recall any of this I'm decently younger than you, let's not forget that

The I-90 sign in French, I don't think I've ever seen that (and it's not been there for at least 15 years...)

Signs on the 87 only start to become somewhat bilingual north of the Adirondacks, IIRC. Actually, that said, I'm not 100% sure that there isn't a small sign or two in French in the Albany area, but it's limited.

[Dengler Avenue]

(1) I'd say 17 because it hugs Lake Superior Shore.
Jokes aside, though, it's really hard to say. wave46 summarized it well.

(2) That's my thought about ON-17 too.

I'd really recommend reading through http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=229872.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by wave46

Like most things in life: it depends.

For a car in the summertime, use 17. It's far more scenic and interesting drive than 11 and you have much less truck traffic.

For a tractor-trailer or car in the winter, use 11. You avoid the worst of the weather off the lake and the grades involved.

So, a tractor-trailer leaving Toronto for Thunder Bay will always pass through Gravenhurst and North Bay, and never through Parry Sound and Sudbury? I guess that's the answer I was looking for then

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

(1) I'd say 17 because it hugs Lake Superior Shore.
Jokes aside, though, it's really hard to say. wave46 summarized it well.

Believe it or not, I had that same pun in mind too (something like: obviously 17 is the "Superior" route, 11 being the "Interior" route)

"It's hard to say"?!? But your sig says the opposite - that anyone who is familiar with both paths will immediately know that there's one that's the best one.

I don't have enough of an urge to know the answer to justify taking my car/pickup and trailer to Thunder Bay for no reason then come back (via the other route), so I'm asking someone who presumably did

[Dengler Avenue]

Originally Posted by lio45

So, a tractor-trailer leaving Toronto for Thunder Bay will always pass through Gravenhurst and North Bay, and never through Parry Sound and Sudbury? I guess that's the answer I was looking for then

I would think so.

Or, if the truck passes through Sudbury, the farthest west it's gonna go is probably SSM.

(1) Interior - Or you mean "inferior"?

(2) It was actually swimmer_spe's suggestion, when I told him I've been back and forth about which route to widen (hence that entire thread about it). Now that I'm leaning towards 11 again, I hope I don't have to change my stance once again. (On that note, since wave46 insists that major upgrade of the arterial road in his city is an inefficient/irresponsible use of MTO funding, I guess my stance's irrelevant.)

(3) Try it whenever you wanna go cross-country instead of heading to Florida. You should definitely do it if SSP-er's from Alberta decide to do a meetup. In that case, please also remember to record it live and post it somewhere on the Canadian forum.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

I would think so.

Or, if the truck passes through Sudbury, the farthest west it's gonna go is probably SSM.

If I were the trucker (in a NAFTA situation of course), I think my preferred route would be to Sarnia (401-402) then to Sault Ste Marie on Michigan's excellent freeways while enjoying significantly cheaper fuel for about half the trip.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

(3) Try it whenever you wanna go cross-country instead of heading to Florida. You should definitely do it if SSP-er's from Alberta decide to do a meetup. In that case, please also remember to record it live and post it somewhere on the Canadian forum.

I did the Vancouver to Sherbrooke drive once, (and Sherbrooke to California twice), but I took the interstates instead. It was in winter and the weather in the Rockies was quite bad - enough to have justified good roads even if it had been a detour, which it wasn't.

I figured the sceneries of the mountains and great interior plains would be similar anyway, might as well enjoy them from better and safer roads. (Rockies vs Rockies, Montana vs Southern Alberta, etc.)

[Dengler Avenue]

Originally Posted by lio45

If I were the trucker (in a NAFTA situation of course), I think my preferred route would be to Sarnia (401-402) then to Sault Ste Marie on Michigan's excellent freeways while enjoying significantly cheaper fuel for about half the trip.

Oh yea one of the big premises of my pipe dream is that our neighbour to the south has become unreliable/unpredictable. Otherwise, pipe dreams will stay as pipe dreams.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

You should definitely do it if SSP-er's from Alberta decide to do a meetup.

Only a sucker would take that bait, the first thing they'll do is say "aha! look at all the fuel you burned to get here! QED"