Rural Commuter Rail

[Allandale25]

Originally Posted by Joseph Potvin

@Truenorth00,



Based on prior experience in this forum, I do not anticipate that @Truenorth00 will attempt to answer any of this. Criticism seems his only mode of discourse. So I invite any of the other anti-sprawl motivated critics of regional rail to comment on that CBC story and the questions I've posed.

So no response to Charles' question (Post No. 2154) then? Just taking shots at others for not answering your questions. Glass houses, etc.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Joseph Potvin

Please explain how you reckon that the removal of the railway though Chelsea is related to preventing or reducing urban sprawl...
CBC: Chelsea, Que., plans to add 1,000 new homes

I don't think anyone believes that the tracks were removed to prevent sprawl. They were removed to create a recreational trail. ref

Do you believe it would be even worse if passenger rail were running?

It wouldn't slow down the sprawl, but it could accelerate it.

Would the addition of passenger rail on that re-developed line be a worse scenario for the future of Ottawa's King Edward Avenue and its curious intersection with Rideau?

The big problem with King Edward Ave is trucks. Unless you plan on offering freight services, any growth on the north side if the river would make things worse.

Do you think it's wiser to ensure that those 1000 new homes for commuters in Chelsea (plus the current La Pêche home-building spree) should only serviced by roads?

It depends on the mode of transit. Buses run on roads and can be very effective for small communities.

If I understand your idea correctly, the public policy should be to make travelling 25 km between home and work as inconvenient as possible, as a sort of incentive-booster for the Compact City model.

Some people on this forum have that attitude. Personally I think there are better ways to control sprawl, but they require intervention from the provincial governments. An agricultural land reserve (like they have in BC) is one piece of the puzzle.

What proportion of the population of these areas do you think will feel inclined to use the curiously inconvenient TransCollines service to STO service to OC-Transpo service? I expect well less than 1 per cent. Would you go as high as, say, 2%?

TBH, I know nothing about TransCollines, but if it is so curiously inconvenient, the first step would be to fix it. From your description, the first step would be to have them provide direct service to Hull and Ottawa (similar to Ottawas rural bus partners).

Happy New Year all.

And to you.

Originally Posted by Joseph Potvin

The fact is, no public sector entity in Canada’s Capital holds a mandate to operate a regional transit integration service. Even the central business district and surrounding urban residential neighbourhoods are split ¾ in Ottawa Ontario and ¼ in Gatineau Québec, with a kilometer-wide ‘moat’ between them: the Ottawa River.

Regional issues (including transit) are complicated in Ottawa. Getting different neighbouring cities to agree is tough at the best of times, but when they are in different provinces, instead of asking mom and dad for help, it becomes more of a "I'll tell my big brother to tell your big brother..."

It's perfectly obvious that if these were the same city, the O-Train would have been crossing the PoWB from the beginning.

Quite possibly (hard to know for sure due to maintenance issues), but Gatineau council was vehemently against supporting rail transit and Ottawa wasn't about to do anything without their support.

There is nothing inherently wrong with the City of Ottawa looking after its own,

Glad you agree on that one.

although we suggest that it hurts its own interests when it configures self-interest in ways that result in sub-optimizing the regional system as a whole. It is possible to respect the choices that the people of Ottawa made in the past two municipal elections, while at the same time appreciating the coherence of the regional rail plan developed by former Minister of Transport David Collennette while heading up the former Mayor of Ottawa's Task Force.

That map showed the plan's "Long-term recommendations to 2037 and beyond" (emphasis added by me). The vast majority of the plan's focus in the short an medium-term was for areas inside city boundaries (unlike Moose's plan). The public decided to go a slightly different route (converting more of the transitway east of Tremblay and west of Bayview to rails sooner than planed) but we are doing many of the things in the report, just in a slightly different order, and that is fine.

Certainly no where in the report did it say anything about running slow, heavy bi-level coaches along the old Ellwood subdivision, the plan was for LRT trains (bi-mode electric-diesel so that they could run through the downtown tunnel). Personally I think the plan was a bit overly ambitious, but some of its aspects could still be added later.

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by OtrainUser

How about answering the question I asked just above the one you replied to.

He actually answered your question in a reply to one of your posts.

Do you not agree with us that it is in Ottawa residents' interest to have a rail connection to Gatineau park? (There is an existing bridge over Route 5 just at the south end of Morrison's Quarry. ...and yes, we do indeed plan to bring re-development of the railway through Chelsea to a public vote there once the main system gets underway elsewhere.)

Assuming it ever does come to a public vote in Chelsea, I don't think there'd be much resistance against privately funded rails-with-trails unless someone started some fear mongering about having train tracks next to a trail...

[Allandale25]

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

He actually answered your question in a reply to one of your posts.



Assuming it ever does come to a public vote in Chelsea, I don't think there'd be much resistance against privately funded rails-with-trails unless someone started some fear mongering about having train tracks next to a trail...

Joseph, what do you mean by "a public vote"? Does you mean a referendum held at the same time as the municipal election or that you would run a group of pro-restore the rail municipal candidates?

[OtrainUser]

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

He actually answered your question in a reply to one of your posts.



Assuming it ever does come to a public vote in Chelsea, I don't think there'd be much resistance against privately funded rails-with-trails unless someone started some fear mongering about having train tracks next to a trail...

It's not a specific enough answer, I'm more interested in the details of it such as will it be at grade or completely elevated and what else has has intended for the coridoor. That response you posted was way too vague of an answer.

[Charles5]

Originally Posted by Joseph Potvin

Do you not agree with us that it is in Ottawa residents' interest to have a rail connection to Gatineau park? (There is an existing bridge over Route 5 just at the south end of Morrison's Quarry

@Joseph Potvin
Are you talking about the Chemin Carmen Bridge over Route 5?

This doesn't appear to make any sense to me. While it may technically get you across the boundary of Gatineau Park, it is a dead end road that only appears to lead to about a half dozen private residences. There is no access to the Park's trail network from that location. In fact, it appears to me from the Park's trail map that the nearest trailheads are about 3-4km to the North (P17) or South (P16).

Perhaps you could elaborate on how you expect folks to get from a potential train station into Gatineau Park.

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by OtrainUser

It's not a specific enough answer, I'm more interested in the details of it such as will it be at grade or completely elevated and what else has has intended for the coridoor. That response you posted was way too vague of an answer.

Why would it not be at-grade? There wouldn't be the traffic to demand it and at best some automatic crossing gates could be used to avoid needing to sound the horn everywhere. MOOSE's plan is just to lay track back on the corridor and leave a trail (or one on each side, idk) to the side

If you're worried about the geotechnical stability of the corridor, it's worth noting that the track was in operation for over 100 years (possibly with the occasional washout now and then) and that it would be possible to upgrade the corridor to mitigate the risk of further washouts.

[OtrainUser]

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

Why would it not be at-grade? There wouldn't be the traffic to demand it and at best some automatic crossing gates could be used to avoid needing to sound the horn everywhere. MOOSE's plan is just to lay track back on the corridor and leave a trail (or one on each side, idk) to the side

If you're worried about the geotechnical stability of the corridor, it's worth noting that the track was in operation for over 100 years (possibly with the occasional washout now and then) and that it would be possible to upgrade the corridor to mitigate the risk of further washouts.

If that were the case the track wouldn't have been ripped out to begin with but it's not as simple as you think it is. The city of Chelsea already considered all options and has already said that it's not feasable to protect the track so they ripped it up. The only way to provide a reliable service to the area is to elevate the tracks.

https://ottawacitizen.com/news/local-new...he-last-spike-from-wakefield-steam-train

You should carefully read that article.

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by OtrainUser

If that were the case the track wouldn't have been ripped out to begin with but it's not as simple as you think it is. The city of Chelsea already considered all options and has already said that it's not feasable to protect the track so they ripped it up. The only way to provide a reliable service to the area is to elevate the tracks.

https://ottawacitizen.com/news/local-new...he-last-spike-from-wakefield-steam-train

You should carefully read that article.

What? It literally says "It would take millions to repair it, and no one has been able to say that it would make financial sense." The track was torn up because they didn't want to pay to repair the line, but wanted to make use of the corridor by converting it to a trail.

It has nothing to do with the geotechnical aspects and your theory doesn't explain how the line was able to operate for 100+ years without requiring elevation. No where in the article does it say that the tracks would require elevating to be operable. Would it be more reliable? Sure absolutely but that's overkill.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by Charles5

@Joseph Potvin
Are you talking about the Chemin Carmen Bridge over Route 5?

This doesn't appear to make any sense to me. While it may technically get you across the boundary of Gatineau Park, it is a dead end road that only appears to lead to about a half dozen private residences. There is no access to the Park's trail network from that location. In fact, it appears to me from the Park's trail map that the nearest trailheads are about 3-4km to the North (P17) or South (P16).

Perhaps you could elaborate on how you expect folks to get from a potential train station into Gatineau Park.

Clearly somebody should complain to the CTA that those private residents are not maintaining their private dead end road to a sufficient standard.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

What? It literally says "It would take millions to repair it, and no one has been able to say that it would make financial sense." The track was torn up because they didn't want to pay to repair the line, but wanted to make use of the corridor by converting it to a trail.

It has nothing to do with the geotechnical aspects and your theory doesn't explain how the line was able to operate for 100+ years without requiring elevation. No where in the article does it say that the tracks would require elevating to be operable. Would it be more reliable? Sure absolutely but that's overkill.

It is my understanding that storms are more frequent than they used to be. It washed out twice within a few years. The first time various levels of government pitched in to fix it to keep the tourist train. The second time it was decided that wasn’t prudent. Clearly the current infrastructure is insufficient for a regular commuter train.

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by acottawa

Clearly somebody should complain to the CTA that those private residents are not maintaining their private dead end road to a sufficient standard.

Dead end roads are federally important assets? OK.

Originally Posted by acottawa

It is my understanding that storms are more frequent than they used to be. It washed out twice within a few years. The first time various levels of government pitched in to fix it to keep the tourist train. The second time it was decided that wasn’t prudent. Clearly the current infrastructure is insufficient for a regular commuter train.

Well that's true, the corridor would need repairs and upgrades, but elevating it might still be on the extreme end of things.

[OtrainUser]

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

Dead end roads are federally important assets? OK.



Well that's true, the corridor would need repairs and upgrades, but elevating it might still be on the extreme end of things.

Elevating might be extreme but it is the only sure way that the tracks won't get washed out anymore and it guarantees a reliable train service which is more important

[Charles5]

An interesting quote:

"A railway is not 'discontinued' merely because the owner neglects core maintenance obligations. Discontinuance of a railway requires the owner to first openly offer to sell the corridor to other railway companies."
Joseph Potvin, Low Down, March 16-22, 2016

This is the argument that Joseph Potvin used to try and bring the line through Chelsea back under Federal jurisdiction, arguing that it had 'not' been discontinued, despite not being used or maintained. It is completely opposite the argument that MOOSE has been making in regards to the POW Bridge in which they argue that the City has effectively discontinued the line by not maintaining it over the years. It appears that Mr. Potvin is willing to interpret the law any way he wants as long as it suits his purposes.

(For comparison purposes, here's a reference for the POW Bridge scenario (para 35). "MOOSE claims that because the City did not repair the railway line, it has fallen into a state of disrepair. MOOSE therefore maintains that the railway line has been discontinued without the City having gone through the discontinuance process.")

[Allandale25]

Originally Posted by Charles5

An interesting quote:

"A railway is not 'discontinued' merely because the owner neglects core maintenance obligations. Discontinuance of a railway requires the owner to first openly offer to sell the corridor to other railway companies."
Joseph Potvin, Low Down, March 16-22, 2016

This is the argument that Joseph Potvin used to try and bring the line through Chelsea back under Federal jurisdiction, arguing that it had 'not' been discontinued, despite not being used or maintained. It is completely opposite the argument that MOOSE has been making in regards to the POW Bridge in which they argue that the City has effectively discontinued the line by not maintaining it over the years. It appears that Mr. Potvin is willing to interpret the law any way he wants as long as it suits his purposes.

(For comparison purposes, here's a reference for the POW Bridge scenario (para 35). "MOOSE claims that because the City did not repair the railway line, it has fallen into a state of disrepair. MOOSE therefore maintains that the railway line has been discontinued without the City having gone through the discontinuance process.")

Good point.

[Gat-Train]

Here is my perfect-world plan that I think would make everyone happy.

Step 1

Amalgamate the entire Ottawa-Gatineau metro area into a single self-governed province, like Washington DC. This means cutting through a lot of the red tape that comes with planning transit to connect the two cities. Had this happened years ago, I'd wager that we would have funding to repair the POW bridge and the Trillium Line extension to Alexander-Tache would have probably been bundled with Stage 2. Instead, here we are having talks with the mayor of Gatineau about running trains on the bridge we own.

A single region would also have a larger tax base, thus giving us more resources to fund transportation among other things. A single transit organization could be better optimized to serve the region.

Step 2
Double-track the Trillium Line and fix the POW bridge
Step 3
The new regional government imposes strict zoning regulations and high land taxes outside the urban boundary to put the brakes on sprawl and concentrate all new development around commuter train stations. The new developments would not be limited to bedroom condos, but probably in areas like Chelsea I could see something similar to Ville de Mont Tremblant, with hotels and shuttle busses to the park and ski hill.

P.S. While we debate the merits of commuter rail and Joseph Potvin fights the city in court, the POW continues to disintegrate. It's actually mind-boggling that the only interprovincial rail connection in the NCR has been neglected for so long, with the exception of a venture capitalist and a handful of railfans.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by Gat-Train

Here is my perfect-world plan that I think would make everyone happy.

Step 1

Amalgamate the entire Ottawa-Gatineau metro area into a single self-governed province, like Washington DC. This means cutting through a lot of the red tape that comes with planning transit to connect the two cities. Had this happened years ago, I'd wager that we would have funding to repair the POW bridge and the Trillium Line extension to Alexander-Tache would have probably been bundled with Stage 2. Instead, here we are having talks with the mayor of Gatineau about running trains on the bridge we own.

A single region would also have a larger tax base, thus giving us more resources to fund transportation among other things. A single transit organization could be better optimized to serve the region.

Step 2
Double-track the Trillium Line and fix the POW bridge
Step 3
The new regional government imposes strict zoning regulations and high land taxes outside the urban boundary to put the brakes on sprawl and concentrate all new development around commuter train stations. The new developments would not be limited to bedroom condos, but probably in areas like Chelsea I could see something similar to Ville de Mont Tremblant, with hotels and shuttle busses to the park and ski hill.

P.S. While we debate the merits of commuter rail and Joseph Potvin fights the city in court, the POW continues to disintegrate. It's actually mind-boggling that the only interprovincial rail connection in the NCR has been neglected for so long, with the exception of a venture capitalist and a handful of railfans.

Putting strict zoning regulations and high land taxes outside the urban boundary will just drive up the cost of housing within the urban area even higher, and encourage much faster expansion of towns like Rockland, Embrun, Russell, Winchester, Kemptville, Carleton Place, Almonte, and Arnprior. Then the challenge will be to provide transportation to those communities that are no longer within the same provincial jurisdiction.

There are no simple solutions regarding zoning or affordable housing. Radical changes will result in unintended consequences. One of the things that make Ottawa attractive is that housing is reasonably affordable. Tight restrictions will drive housing prices up to Toronto levels or worse. Ottawa has abundant land available for housing. The more we create an artificial land shortage through policy, the more unaffordable housing will become. This will negatively affect the quality of life for everybody if more and more of our incomes have to be used to pay for housing.

[Gat-Train]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Putting strict zoning regulations and high land taxes outside the urban boundary will just drive up the cost of housing within the urban area even higher, and encourage much faster expansion of towns like Rockland, Embrun, Russell, Winchester, Kemptville, Carleton Place, Almonte, and Arnprior. Then the challenge will be to provide transportation to those communities that are no longer within the same provincial jurisdiction.

We should also annex those municipalities into the Greater National Capital Region, and impose similar restrictions. The land taxes can be used to subsidize urban living. Currently, the opposite takes place. Low-density suburbs have far greater infrastructure upkeep costs compares to urban areas, simply due to how far spread out it has to be over the same number of taxpayers.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by Gat-Train

P.S. While we debate the merits of commuter rail and Joseph Potvin fights the city in court, the POW continues to disintegrate. It's actually mind-boggling that the only interprovincial rail connection in the NCR has been neglected for so long, with the exception of a venture capitalist and a handful of railfans.

It isn’t really mind-boggling. The Bridge was built principally to serve industrial users. Those industries are gone. Restoring the bridge is of no value to Ottawa and very limited value to Gatineau (as a hypothetical branch to a hypothetical LRT line) so neither city is willing to pay for it. Ottawa should have discontinued the line North of Bayview long ago and saved a whole bunch of legal bills.

[Joseph Potvin]

Originally Posted by OtrainUser

If that were the case the track wouldn't have been ripped out to begin with but it's not as simple as you think it is. The city of Chelsea already considered all options and has already said that it's not feasable to protect the track so they ripped it up. The only way to provide a reliable service to the area is to elevate the tracks. https://ottawacitizen.com/news/local-new...he-last-spike-from-wakefield-steam-train You should carefully read that article.

@OtrainUser, I have seen the very extensive technical engineer's report on the culverts along that entire track. The large majority of those culverts were then and still are about 1/2 to 3/4 blocked by sediment and/or are in need of structural maintenance. When municipal officials say the track washed out due to a very heavy rain, well, uh, ya, that's true. It's also true that neither the municipality nor the 3-municipality's CCFO have ever budgeted for proactive culvert maintenance along that line. Real railway companies are required to do so.

When you say "The city of Chelsea already considered all options and has already said that it's not feasable to protect the track so they ripped it up." ... you seem to hold some unjustifiable confidence in them.

@Allandale25 When I say "a public vote" to redevelop that line, I'm confident that once other parts of the MOOSE network are up and running, the public sense of regret in Chelsea will arise quite naturally in municipal elections.

Joseph Potvin
Director General | Directeur général
Moose Consortium (Mobility Ottawa-Outaouais: Systems & Enterprises) | www.letsgomoose.com
Consortium Moose (Mobilité Outaouais-Ottawa: Systèmes & Enterprises) | www.onyvamoose.com