Highways in Canada

[Dengler Avenue]

Originally Posted by wave46

I suspect someone will react by trying to steal it.

This has happened on Interstate 40 in Barstow, California, where a sign that says "Wilmington, NC 2554mi." has been stolen repeatedly.

I understand if the number 420’s involved*, but a sign that has 4-digit number that begins with a 2? Why?

* Are you all familiar with the story? Funny enough, apparently that never happened with the Niagara Veterans Memorial Parkway.

[sonysnob]

My friend who installed the sign in Barrie has expressed a desire to install a sign on Highway 17 facing traffic entering from Manitoba that lists the distances to Ottawa, Toronto and Montreal, but unfortunately a staff member who works in one region (say Toronto), doesn't have the authority to order signs for another region (say Thunder Bay).

I too really like the sign on Highway 11. I was surprised at how much interest in garnered as well. I like the idea of a sign reminding us hapless southern Ontarian's how large the province actually is.

[Dengler Avenue]

It seems that the good old map book will never be obsolete then.

[wave46]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

I understand if the number 420’s involved*, but a sign that has 4-digit number that begins with a 2? Why?

* Are you all familiar with the story? Funny enough, apparently that never happened with the Niagara Veterans Memorial Parkway.

Why? The novelty factor of it, probably. For the same reason the town of 'Fucking' Austria has its town sign stolen.

These aren't Moriarty-level crimes.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by sonysnob

Highway signage should prioritize the most direct routes, not necessarily the most high speed ones.

Highway 7 is pretty comparable to most Toronto to Ottawa trips, particularly if the destination is anywhere in the north GTA. Google tends to overestimate travel times on two lane highways.

Is Highway 7 unsafe?

Divided highways are clearly safer than undivided per km travelled.

[sonysnob]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Divided highways are clearly safer than undivided per km travelled.

That's true in general, but in specifics, as is often the case in life, it's not that simple.

The safety of any given highway corridor is all about probabilities.

Most of Highway 7 has been fairly recently rebuilt and features pretty modern steel beam guiderail, so roadside hazards are well protected from collisions. Obviously a two-lane undivided highway is much more of a threat for cross-over collisions, but since Highway 7 isn't generally all that busy, the likelihood of an errant vehicle crossing the centre-line and actually striking an oncoming vehicle is comparatively lower compared to a busier highway. Highway 7 has cross-traffic and turning traffic to contend with but because Highway 7 generally traverses a comparatively remote area of the province without too many driveways or busy cross-roads the probability of these accidents is still fairly low.

Compared to the 401, the 401 generally has either a wide grassed median, a steel flex beam median or a concrete tall wall depending upon the median's width. While all of these median technologies will significantly reduce the risk of a cross-over collision it's important to remember that none of those technologies reduce the risk to zero. Because the 401 is comparatively busier, the lower probability of a cross-over collision is still more likely to involve an impact to an oncoming vehicle because there are for more vehicles per area of pavement on the 401 than there are on Highway 7. Furthermore, a motorist is far more likely to be involved in a sideswipe, or chain-reaction collision on the 401 than they are to be on Highway 7. The risk of a serious run off the road collision is similarly small on the 401 as it is on Highway 7. The risks associated with a wildlife collision are probably fairly similar on both highways, though the higher speeds vehicles travel on the 401 probably means a wildlife strike would have more serious consequences to a motorist than a similar collision on Highway 7

I'd still venture that a motorist is probably marginally safer when driving the 401 vs. Highway 7, but when you consider specific collision probabilities the margin of safety between the two highways is a lot smaller than one might think.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by SignalHillHiker

Every region has its issues.

We recently went through a constitutional crisis over this:

Welcome to the Big Land by Robert Schaub, on Flickr

The Provincial Government denied requests to include the Labrador flag at border crosses with Quebec. This caused protests nearing on riots throughout Labrador - government buildings occupied, the works. Eventually, the Provincial Government caved. So now Labrador border crossings have four flags - Canada, Newfoundland and Labrador provincial flag, Union flag, and the Labrador tricolour.

This irritates Newfoundlanders because the island's tricolour (as in my avatar) is not used officially except where it forms part of a municipality's flag. Labrador assumes we feel represented by the provincial flag, but it's just as unnatural and modern to us as it is to them. (It's just a mindset there, CBC gets hate mail if the province's evening news hour starts with a story from St. John's instead of Black Tickle, Labrador; and yes, I'm VERY aware Labrador is to Newfoundland as Newfoundland is to Canada).

So now that they've gotten that, people with my political views want the tricolour officially displayed at Channel-Port aux Basques and Argentia, the main ferry entrances to Newfoundland. St. John's is already covered, there's thousands displayed throughout the city, including at the Narrows and a HUGE one on top of the Southside Hills overlooking the city...

Meanwhile, anyone from anywhere else in Canada will come here and not even notice. And, even if they did, probably not know what the Newfoundland tricolour and Labrador tricolour even are.

Labrador is distinct enough in so many ways that not including their flag sounds almost like deliberate provocation.

BTW I know a lot about Canada but did not know about the Newfoundland tricolour until SSP. I did know about their national anthem and other stuff though.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by wave46

I don't think the Highway 7 control city thing is a problem unto itself, but in combination with the poor control city signage for the 416/401 route, one wonders why the MTO made the decisions it did.

Most traffic will use the 416/401 route to Toronto (I did when I lived in Ottawa), so why not sign it appropriately?

It is needlessly confusing for those from out of province/country.

Agreed. The 400 series is the top level highway system in terms of design capacity and speed and signage should direct most traffic to them.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by sonysnob

^ I don't think it would be inherently wrong to sign Toronto on the 416/401 routing from Ottawa, I just don't think it's inherently wrong to sign Toronto via Highway 7 as it has been.

The current signage in Ottawa signs the 416 South to the 401, and then signs Toronto via Highway 7. That doesn't seem like an awful arrangement to me. Even the most geographically impaired traveler should know what the 401 is, and that its the road that Toronto is on. So directions to the 401 are already conveyed to motorists traveling the 417. Then additionally, Toronto is signed via the most direct highway from Ottawa.

There are certainly other ways the highways could be signed, but the argument that the current signing arrangement is somehow "wrong" or "dumb" is baseless. And that's what I took issue with.

What is inherently wrong is to only sign Highway 7 as the route to Toronto from Ottawa.

[Acajack]

I also do not think non-Ontarians - especially foreigners - unfamiliar with the 401 should be called geographically impaired.

[Acajack]

When I first went to France I had never heard of the legendary Autoroute du Soleil and if I did not speak French would have missed the cue in its name about where it leads.

Luckily it was signed with good control city choices.

[sonysnob]

Originally Posted by Acajack

When I first went to France I had never heard of the legendary Autoroute du Soleil and if I did not speak French would have missed the cue in its name about where it leads.

Luckily it was signed with good control city choices.

Whenever I travel, I always bring this thing called a map. They are usefull travel aids, and typically cost less than plane tickets. They sell them in both Russia and Brazil, but perhaps Quebec is too distinct a society to retail maps?

The fatal flaw in this comparison is that if a motorist traveling westerly along the 417 had indeed followed just the control city signage, they would have indeed found Toronto. It's just not on a route that you'd prefer taking. Though it is about 50km shorter than your preferred routing.

I think it's fairly safe to assume that the engineer that installed that new modern sign on the 417 in Kanata was familiar with the existence of the 416 and knew that the also would form part of the route to Toronto via the 401. Your argument is that you don't like the routing, but somehow you are arguing that just because [i]you[/] don't like it, it's therefor wrong (which honestly Acajack, isn't all that different from what you normally espouse on this forum). You haven't demonstrated in any meaningful way that just because the routing along Highway 7 isn't your preferred routing, that it's somehow wrong. There is an argument for signing Toronto via Highway 7, you just don't prefer it, but, unfortunately, just because King Acajack doesn't like something doesn't mean it's inherently wrong. Honestly.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by sonysnob

Whenever I travel, I always bring this thing called a map. They are usefull travel aids, and typically cost less than plane tickets. They sell them in both Russia and Brazil, but perhaps Quebec is too distinct a society to retail maps?

The fatal flaw in this comparison is that if a motorist traveling westerly along the 417 had indeed followed just the control city signage, they would have indeed found Toronto. It's just not on a route that you'd prefer taking. Though it is about 50km shorter than your preferred routing.

I think it's fairly safe to assume that the engineer that installed that new modern sign on the 417 in Kanata was familiar with the existence of the 416 and knew that the also would form part of the route to Toronto via the 401. Your argument is that you don't like the routing, but somehow you are arguing that just because [i]you[/] don't like it, it's therefor wrong (which honestly Acajack, isn't all that different from what you normally espouse on this forum). You haven't demonstrated in any meaningful way that just because the routing along Highway 7 isn't your preferred routing, that it's somehow wrong. There is an argument for signing Toronto via Highway 7, you just don't prefer it, but, unfortunately, just because King Acajack doesn't like something doesn't mean it's inherently wrong. Honestly.

I am beginning to think you own a truck stop in Madoc or something...

[The Chemist]

I have to say that the Chinese have the right idea when naming expressways - they just name them by their terminal cities. So for example, the G4 Expressway is the Beijing - Hong Kong - Macau (Chinese: Jinggang'ao) Expressway, the G2 Expressway is the Beijing-Shanghai (Chinese: Jinghu) Expressway, and the G50 is the Shanghai-Chongqing (Chinese: Huyu) Expressway. Entrance signs on the highway will often indicate the terminal cities as one of the control cities, regardless of the distance away from the terminals.

Fancy names for expressways are all fine and well, but I think obvious and clear names are better. It makes it easier for visitors as well as residents, IMO.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by sonysnob

Whenever I travel, I always bring this thing called a map. They are usefull travel aids, and typically cost less than plane tickets. They sell them in both Russia and Brazil, but perhaps Quebec is too distinct a society to retail maps?

Not sure what this has to do with Quebec?

Though my sense is that most Quebec drivers do have some notion that there is a major highway in Ontario called the 401. Though the vast majority wouldn't access the 401 via the 417-416 and Ottawa, but via the A-20 and then passing through Cornwall, etc.

[hipster duck]

IIRC, the old exit for Highway 7 in Stittsville used to be signed for Peterborough, which makes sense. Peterborough is not really a small destination. I wouldn't be surprised if the plurality of all cars on Highway 7 traveling west of Carleton Place are headed to Peterborough, and not Toronto.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

IIRC, the old exit for Highway 7 in Stittsville used to be signed for Peterborough, which makes sense. Peterborough is not really a small destination. I wouldn't be surprised if the plurality of all cars on Highway 7 traveling west of Carleton Place are headed to Peterborough, and not Toronto.

Agreed. Peterborough is the largest population centre on the 7, to boot. I understand if Toronto is signed on the 416 but it makes less sense on the 417 heading to the 7. Even if you're going to Toronto via the 7 you still have to (presumably) take the 115 and the 401 before getting there.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by JHikka

Agreed. Peterborough is the largest population centre on the 7, to boot. I understand if Toronto is signed on the 416 but it makes less sense on the 417 heading to the 7. Even if you're going to Toronto via the 7 you still have to (presumably) take the 115 and the 401 before getting there.

Good point. Hwy 7 doesn't even enter Toronto.

[Dengler Avenue]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Good point. Hwy 7 doesn't even enter Toronto.

It technically enters York Region as a downloaded Highway 7, but the route’s so circuitous* that no one should bother with it.

* After Peterborough, 7 curves up to hit Lindsay, then down again, concurrent with Highway 12, then finally head west towards Markham and places.

[sonysnob]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Good point. Hwy 7 doesn't even enter Toronto.

Neither does the 416