Highways in Canada

[Acajack]

The main highway junction going east and north out of downtown Toronto.

Montreal... no where to be seen. They speak French there don't they, Myrtle?

https://www.google.com/maps/@43.7603016,...VIUW_A-_BmMaBN3ovf64A!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

[Dengler Avenue]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Yeah, there is no reason at least two cities can't be on those signs.

On the 417 as you leave Ottawa going west you've actually got Kanata and Pembroke IIRC and going east you have Cornwall and Montreal.

But for other highways like the 416 (and the 401 in most of Toronto)... nothing.

I’ll try listing control cities for some of Ontario’s major highways now.
401 from west to east (viewed from Windsor):
Chatham-Kent(?), London, Woodstock, Hamilton via 403, Cambridge, Milton, Mississauga, Toronto, Oshawa, Peterborough via 115, Trenton(?)*, Kingston, Ottawa via 416, Cornwall, Montréal (QC). From east to west, take out Montréal, flip the order, and put Detroit (MI) at last.
* CFB Trenton

403 from west to east (viewed from Woodstock):
Brantford, Hamilton, Niagara Falls via QEW, Burlington, Oakville, Mississauga, Brampton via 410.

QEW heading towards Fort Erie should include Buffalo, NY as a control city.

417 from QC/ON border:
Nepean(?), Ottawa, Kanata, Pembroke*, North Bay* **, Sudbury*, Sault Sainte Marie*.
* via 17
** Cross-country truck traffic should be advised to use 11.

Now comes the hard one.
Highway 17 from west to east (view from Whiteshell, MB):
Kenora, Dryden, Thunder Bay, Nipigon, Cochrane via 11, Sault Sainte Marie, Sudbury, Toronto via 69 & via 400, North Bay*, Pembroke, Ottawa, Montréal (QC). From east to west, include Winnipeg (MB) as a control city. If you wanna be excessive, you can even include Regina (SK) and Calgary (AB).

* An additional sign/panel should say that going to North Bay via 11 cuts 29 km off the trip, but that Toronto via Cochrane on the 11 adds 100 km to the trip.

Seriously though, it’d have been so much easier if the numbers of the 2 TCH branches between Nipigon and North Bay are swapped, with 17 always north of 11.

I don’t know why ON-404 has bilingual signs either, when there’s no significant francophone communities in either Toronto or York Region.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

I’ll try listing control cities for some of Ontario’s major highways now.
401 from west to east (viewed from Windsor):
Chatham-Kent(?), London, Woodstock, Hamilton via 403, Cambridge, Milton, Mississauga, Toronto, Oshawa, Trenton(?)*, Kingston, Ottawa via 416, Cornwall, Montréal (QC). From east to west, take out Montréal, flip the order, and put Detroit (MI) at last.
.

Are these the control cities as they should be or as they are? I don't think think all of them are actual control cities at the moment. "Ottawa via 416" is a major junction on the 401 but I don't think it's a control city as in a "destination" for the 401 itself. Same goes for "Hamilton via 403" I am pretty sure.

[Acajack]

In theory the 401 going east from Toronto could have Kingston/Ottawa/Montreal as control cities.

[Dengler Avenue]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Are these the control cities as they should be or as they are? I don't think think all of them are actual control cities at the moment. "Ottawa via 416" is a major junction on the 401 but I don't think it's a control city as in a "destination" for the 401 itself. Same goes for "Hamilton via 403" I am pretty sure.

Clarification: These are control cities as they should be.

Question though: There are so many cities that MTO will probably require 2 billboards instead of 1 due to sight line issues. Will that confuse people even more? Usually people will think the 2nd one’s just repeating what’s said on the 1st one in French.

401 east of Toronto needs to say the 4 cities in Durham Region first, before those 3. I’d still add Trenton in because of the CFB.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

Now that you all brought it up, I just realized 401 West never says Detroit, but only Windsor.

Windsor makes a bit more sense as it's a major city in Ontario, Detroit is in another country and the 401 doesn't actually run all the way to the border.

On the other hand, on Interstate 5 north of Seattle you see "Vancouver BC" as the control city. They specify Vancouver BC as there is also a Vancouver WA.

On Interstate 87 going north about 2 hours outside NYC the control city for that highway becomes Montreal.

[Dengler Avenue]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Windsor makes a bit more sense as it's a major city in Ontario, Detroit is in another country and the 401 doesn't actually run all the way to the border.

On the other hand, on Interstate 5 north of Seattle you see "Vancouver BC" as the control city. They specify Vancouver BC as there is also a Vancouver WA.

On Interstate 87 going north about 2 hours outside NYC the control city for that highway becomes Montreal.

I guess the biggest problem with 401E is leaving Ottawa and Montreal out then.

I think once you get past Kingston, the control cities will say those 2, though.

In terms of passenger vehicles, not that many make regular trips from TO to either of those. As for truckers, they’re probably expected to know everything, hence the omission.

As for Windsor and Detroit, once Gordie Howe’s done, Detroit should be listed on 401W starting from London because
(1) it’s close enough to the border now;
(2) you don’t want people to end up on the 402 by mistake.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

401 east of Toronto needs to say the 4 cities in Durham Region first, before those 3. I’d still add Trenton in because of the CFB.

Would you really add the Durham region cities on 401 East? I mean, you'd have them marked as you cross them (via boundary signs or exits) but not necessarily as destination cities for the highway.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

Question though: There are so many cities that MTO will probably require 2 billboards instead of 1 due to sight line issues. Will that confuse people even more?.

You just need to pick a few, and don't need all of them. Some is still better than none which is what you have at the moment.

If you look at the A-20 between Montreal and Quebec there are decent-sized cities in between like St-Hyacinthe and Drummondville but they're never listed as control cities for the highway. They only show up at exits when you enter them.

[Dengler Avenue]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Would you really add the Durham region cities on 401 East? I mean, you'd have them marked as you cross them (via boundary signs or exits) but not necessarily as destination cities for the highway.

You have a point. We should still include Oshawa for people from out of province though.

Also I forgot an important city: Peterborough via 115.

[Acajack]

Here is the junction of the A-640 and A-40 just east of Montreal.

https://www.google.com/maps/@45.7294581,...zRxS1CVFSK3ItK2TyGLXw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

The A-40 also goes to Trois-Rivières which is the fifth biggest metro in the province but the control city is Quebec City only.

Trois-Rivières only shows up extremely sporadically (if at all) as a control city on the A-40 in the Montreal and Quebec City areas, IIRC.

[Dengler Avenue]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Here is the junction of the A-640 and A-40 just east of Montreal.

https://www.google.com/maps/@45.7294581,...zRxS1CVFSK3ItK2TyGLXw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

The A-40 also goes to Trois-Rivières which is the fifth biggest metro in the province but the control city is Quebec City only.

Trois-Rivières only shows up extremely sporadically (if at all) as a control city on the A-40 in the Montreal and Quebec City areas, IIRC.

So is that a good practice or nah?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

So is that a good practice or nah?

In this particular case, I think it isn't good practice. Trois-Rivières should be on the signs, at least at major junctions.

[Acajack]

OK so here is the major freeway junction in east end Montreal.

https://www.google.com/maps/@45.6025951,...qyhrCjTPaEZt3dkH0x4Yw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

Trois-Rivières shows up alongside Quebec City, as do Ottawa, Gatineau and Laval.

(There is also a "Montréal CENTRE-VILLE" just before that's not in the shot.)

So not too bad.

[wave46]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

Clarification: These are control cities as they should be.

Question though: There are so many cities that MTO will probably require 2 billboards instead of 1 due to sight line issues. Will that confuse people even more? Usually people will think the 2nd one’s just repeating what’s said on the 1st one in French.

401 east of Toronto needs to say the 4 cities in Durham Region first, before those 3. I’d still add Trenton in because of the CFB.

You pick the next distinctive destinations.

E.g. 400 North: Barrie/North Bay/Sudbury and 400 South: Barrie/Toronto

You wouldn't list the smaller destinations such as Orillia, Huntsville and Parry Sound because they're really not that significant, until you got much closer to those places (i.e. north of Barrie). You wouldn't include places like Vaughan because it's part of the Toronto area.

This is less important on smaller expressways. The 409 doesn't link any major regions of the country - it's a local highway for the GTA.

So, with that in mind:
401 west of Toronto: Kitchener/Waterloo, London and Windsor (with smaller places listed as you get closer - Guelph, Chatham-Kent, Woodstock)
401 east of Toronto: Kingston, Ottawa (via 416) and Montreal

QEW (USA bound): Hamilton, Saint Catharines (via 406), Niagara Falls, Fort Erie/Bridge to USA.

417 eastbound: Ottawa, Montreal

...and so forth.

[sonysnob]

The distance signs indicate the smaller cities as well. Although the 401 uses London as a control city west of Toronto, there are numerous signs for Kitchener/Waterloo along the actual highway. Same heading east, just east of the Rouge River there is a sign for Ajax and Oshawa, in addition to Kingston:

https://www.google.com/maps/@43.8088953,...AF5mc8yNlDordR9UCtp1Q!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

*edited to add*
I know, just as an aside, that staff with the MTO had a hard time deciding what control cities to use for the eastern extension of the 407. The consultant team's first suggestion was to use Markham and Oshawa. They ended up selecting Toronto and Peterborough, which is what I would have argued for, but I know they had discussions about which were the most appropriate communities.

[Acajack]

Funnily enough, Ottawa still has "Ottawa" as a control city in tons of places within the city limits. Often well within the city limits.

For example, this is just before St-Laurent Blvd. so well within the urbanized part of Ottawa (and well inside the Greenbelt too), but it still says "Ottawa" as the destination for the 417.

https://www.google.com/maps/@45.4249349,...IRIXexCP-HjM_YzCP1ERg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

I believe this strip of land was technically part of the City of Gloucester before the merger almost 20 years ago, but still, they re-did this entire section of road a few years ago, and kept Ottawa as the control city.

Fairly new (post-merger) signage in parts of Ottawa like Kanata, Orleans and Barrhaven also points to "Ottawa" as a control city.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by sonysnob

The distance signs indicate the smaller cities as well. Although the 401 uses London as a control city west of Toronto, there are numerous signs for Kitchener/Waterloo along the actual highway. Same heading east, just east of the Rouge River there is a sign for Ajax and Oshawa, in addition to Kingston:

https://www.google.com/maps/@43.8088953,...AF5mc8yNlDordR9UCtp1Q!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

*edited to add*
I know, just as an aside, that staff with the MTO had a hard time deciding what control cities to use for the eastern extension of the 407. The consultant team's first suggestion was to use Markham and Oshawa. They ended up selecting Toronto and Peterborough, which is what I would have argued for, but I know they had discussions about which were the most appropriate communities.

So the 407 has Toronto as a control city even though it doesn't actually enter Toronto city limits.

A-50 from Gatineau going east has Montreal as a control city even though it doesn't even come close to Montreal city limits. It ends in Mirabel, 35 km north of Montreal.

[Acajack]

Before Gatineau was mega-merged, the A-50's control city going west was "Hull".

So the MTQ had a bit of debate as to what to do for a control city. They didn't want to keep Hull and Gatineau didn't make sense when you were already in Gatineau (at least not to them) so they chose "Gatineau CENTRE-VILLE" as the control city. It think it's pretty rare for DOWNTOWN to be a control city for a major highway. (Before you enter Gatineau city limits, the control city is simply Gatineau.)

https://www.google.com/maps/@45.4630414,...SGEzeRkUZPWYdjPVpa8Ng!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

[Dengler Avenue]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Before Gatineau was mega-merged, the A-50's control city going west was "Hull".

So the MTQ had a bit of debate as to what to do for a control city. They didn't want to keep Hull and Gatineau didn't make sense when you were already in Gatineau (at least not to them) so they chose "Gatineau CENTRE-VILLE" as the control city. It think it's pretty rare for DOWNTOWN to be a control city for a major highway. (Before you enter Gatineau city limits, the control city is simply Gatineau.)

I have actually seen signs on ON-403 east pointing to Mississauga City Centre/Centre-ville (yes, bilingual!).