Canada Line races toward capacity

[Migrant_Coconut]

fredinno, no disrespect, but exactly how many threads do you intend to necro here?

Originally Posted by Sheba

I've only heard of four future stations (33rd and 57th in Vancouver, Capstan Way and YVR in Richmond). I checked and it's 1.6km between Broadway and King Edward Stations - which means putting a station in the middle means it's only about 800m between stations (roughly the spacing between Metrotown and Patterson stations). Do we really want / need stations to be that close together?

Well, the average Vancouver block is 100m long. Broadway is technically West 9th and King Ed is West 25th, so a fully-built Canada would go 6-9-25-33-41-49-57-70: 800m spacing from King Ed to 57th, so one more at 16th wouldn't hurt.

That said, there's something about bedrock and bad elevation that led SNC Lavalin to skip through 16th without even providing a potential station box.

[ilikeredheads]

we've been over this several times. Canada Line is only designed to have their platforms at 50m MAXIMUM. The biggest constraint is Bridgeport Station, which features an island style platform sandwiched between 4 switches. It doesn't matter how much money you throw at it, as trying to extend beyond 50m will inevitably require rebuilding that section of the guideway and track, which will create a whole new set of problems and challenges.

[nname]

Originally Posted by fredinno

How much would it actually cost to upgrade the Canada Line platforms to 80m.

No chance. The tracks are not graded for station platform beyond 50m. Re-grade the track to allow longer platform will most likely require the rebuild of the entire underground section from False Creek to Marine Drive in order to bury the tracks and stations deeper to keep within the maximum 0.5% gradient for station and 5.5% for tracks.

Originally Posted by fredinno

Also, is there any plans for a station at 16th Ave?

No chance. The tracks are not graded for a station at that location. Same reason as above.

[officedweller]

Not possible to put a station in at 16th - there's no straight flat section of track.
Also each undergound station is bookended by ventilation shafts so they can't be extended past the contemplated 50m.

Remember that the line was designed with the following overall features to achieve the ultimate capacity in the RFP specification:
- wider 3.0m trains (versus SkyTrain 2.6m) allowed shorter trains
- shorter trains allowed shorter platforms
- shorter platforms allowed cheaper cut and cover construction, fewer escalators and close-to-the-surface stations on the hilly terrain with suitable grades between stations
- cut and cover construction allowed completion ahead of schedule for the Olympics (even though not officially an Olympic project).

If the line had been designed with 80m platforms, the stations would all have been much deeper (think Yaletown Station) to allow for the required shallow grades between stations. The short 50m stations allowed the slopes to stay within parameters between stations. Even so, some of the station platforms still have a 0.5% grade in them, if I recall correctly. Bombardier's proposal also exposed the guideway in a permanent open trench in the Cambie median south of 49th Ave.

[Aroundtheworld]

Originally Posted by fredinno

How much would it actually cost to upgrade the Canada Line platforms to 80m, and double track the Sea Is. and Richmond spurs? Those sections would pretty much have to be rebuilt, but the section in Vancouver requires only to big bigger stations, and most of the line is fairly flat.

Also, is there any plans for a station at 16th Ave? It seems like a strange gap, especially as it's on the outer part of the general Vancouver Broadway Area.

It's pretty much impossible to upgrade the platforms to 80m and it's the same reason why there is no station at 16th Ave. It has to do with the grade between King Edward and Broadway. The grade is too steep to allow for a station at 16th Avenue and to extend the platforms to 80m.

When they built the Canada Line, they wanted it done in time for the Olympics and on budget. They got that while sacrificing longterm capacity. That said, the Canada Line is at less than 40% capacity right now. The frequency can be doubled and a 10m car can be added in the middle. We're not at the limit yet.

[VancouverOfTheFuture]

stop being this up people; just stop.

50m is all it will get, more trains, and trains with a middle car, i.e. A-C-A Vs the current A-A configuration will be it. also, this will be more than enough as doubling the # of trains without larger platforms is doable, and they are doing that. that'll make trains show up 2x as much, allowing for a lot more people to be moved.

so seriously people, stick with reality.

[fredinno]

Originally Posted by ilikeredheads

we've been over this several times. Canada Line is only designed to have their platforms at 50m MAXIMUM. The biggest constraint is Bridgeport Station, which features an island style platform sandwiched between 4 switches. It doesn't matter how much money you throw at it, as trying to extend beyond 50m will inevitably require rebuilding that section of the guideway and track, which will create a whole new set of problems and challenges.

I know the problems. I stated the line would likely require partial rebuilding of station platforms (at some of the less-steep sections, like 49th Ave and Oakridge), and rebuilding at many of the other station platforms, along with rebuilding on the Richmond and YVR spurs.

This would mean closing up the Canada Line because of its heavy fragmentation- which at that point, you may as well get on to adding station platforms at 16th, 33rd, and 57th while you're at it.

Also, rebuilding the Canada Line spurs means you'd have to rebuild the switches, most likely anyways.


Also, I noticed that the Canada Line spurs don't really look single-tracked on Google Maps. I'm counting 2 separate tracks. What's going on?

https://www.google.ca/maps/@49.1944817,-123.1290473,217m/data=!3m1!1e3

What I used to calculate grade:
http://www.heywhatsthat.com/profiler.html

So, how much would that cost? 50% of the cost of the Canada Line? I mean, we should still be able to use part of the old tracks when the line is done- and RE acquisition costs should also be less.

Originally Posted by VancouverOfTheFuture

stop being this up people; just stop.

50m is all it will get, more trains, and trains with a middle car, i.e. A-C-A Vs the current A-A configuration will be it. also, this will be more than enough as doubling the # of trains without larger platforms is doable, and they are doing that. that'll make trains show up 2x as much, allowing for a lot more people to be moved.

so seriously people, stick with reality.

It's also more used than the Millennium Line...

Relief Lines on say, Victoria Dr might work to relieve some capacity problems, but it Canada is the most direct way to get from Downtown to Richmond. It needs to eventually be expanded, regardless of difficulty.

Same with the Expo 30-40 years from now- there's no real easy replacement for the backbones of a system. Which is why the 41st Ave and Hastings B-line were not expected to (and did not) remove people off the Expo.

[fredinno]

I think a better way to phrase this is how much of the line next to the stations would have to be rebuilt (calculated including the station itself, so 250 m is 100m in front, the 50m station in the centre, and 100m in back.). 250m? 500m? From there, we can work backwards, and find how much of the line would actually have to be rebuilt, and create a back-of-the envelope calculation on how much the upgrade would actually cost. The maximum grade should be 3.5% for the track, and 0.5% for the station.

[VancouverOfTheFuture]

Originally Posted by fredinno

I think a better way to phrase this is how much of the line next to the stations would have to be rebuilt (calculated including the station itself, so 250 m is 100m in front, the 50m station in the centre, and 100m in back.). 250m? 500m? From there, we can work backwards, and find how much of the line would actually have to be rebuilt, and create a back-of-the envelope calculation on how much the upgrade would actually cost. The maximum grade should be 3.5% for the track, and 0.5% for the station.

no, the better question is, why do you keep talking about something that is so far removed from reality that it'll never happen?

[Galaxy]

It may be more realistic to look at other options too like building an additional line in a different part, therefore, increasing north-south capacity rather than expand the Canada Line.

[Alex Mackinnon]

Originally Posted by fredinno

Also, rebuilding the Canada Line spurs means you'd have to rebuild the switches, most likely anyways.


Also, I noticed that the Canada Line spurs don't really look single-tracked on Google Maps. I'm counting 2 separate tracks. What's going on?

https://www.google.ca/maps/@49.1944817,-123.1290473,217m/data=!3m1!1e3

Look at the end of the each Canada Line spur. Look at the Expo and Millennium lines. Compare. Some have 2 tracks all the way to the end, some don't.

I also doubt that the Canada Line is going to exceed it's ultimate capacity any time soon. The Expo Line serves East Van, Burnaby, New Westminster, Surrey and interconnects with the Millennium Line.

The Canada Line only serves South Van, Richmond and YVR. There is way less potential for population and ridership growth on it's route. I doubt Richmond will have a population nearing 500K during my lifetime.

[casper]

Originally Posted by Galaxy

It may be more realistic to look at other options too like building an additional line in a different part, therefore, increasing north-south capacity rather than expand the Canada Line.

You don't say.

In 50-100 years when Canada line is at capacity, there is this old Arbutus path the use to have a railway on it and its owned by the city.

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by Galaxy

It may be more realistic to look at other options too like building an additional line in a different part, therefore, increasing north-south capacity rather than expand the Canada Line.

Great idea, but which route(s) do you imagine having? If you're thinking Arbutus, I very much doubt that would go ahead du to Nimby-ism, and the fixation on a tram.
Granville? Very central and no doubt useful, but maybe too close to Cambie, plus an expensive b**** to build.
A line heading from Lougheed SW to Richmond? Not enough market for that, I reckon.
Again, this is a very pertinent idea, and above all, I'm interested in which routing you might use. Thank you.

[Galaxy]

Originally Posted by trofirhen

Great idea, but which route(s) do you imagine having? If you're thinking Arbutus, I very much doubt that would go ahead du to Nimby-ism, and the fixation on a tram.
Granville? Very central and no doubt useful, but maybe too close to Cambie, plus an expensive b**** to build.
A line heading from Lougheed SW to Richmond? Not enough market for that, I reckon.
Again, this is a very pertinent idea, and above all, I'm interested in which routing you might use. Thank you.

I agree with all your points that's why I would do the following:

A starting point of Marine Dr and Victoria Dr that would run all the way to Kingsway and then turn West to go down Kingsway. The Line would then continue down Kingsway until it hit Main and Broadway where it would interline with the Millennium Line (Broadway Extension)and continue North also interlining with the Expo at Main Street Science World until it hit Main and Hastings (we could eventually extend this portion east in the future for the Hastings Line or replacement 95 B Line route) and turn at that point to go down Hastings until it eventually would end at Water Front Station.

I like this route because it stitches a few routes together plus its far enough east you don’t have to deal with West Side Nimbies. The route also adds transit close to places like the East Fraser Lands and could be a great foundation for reducing pressure on Canada Line because a lot of eastern traffic currently flows to the Canada Line. The other thing I see is the stitching together of the traditional old China Town with Little Saigon and Finally what some call the newer China Town in the area of 41st and Victoria Dr. The section between Victoria Dr and Main Street of Kingsway also is getting denser and could be greatly enhanced with the addition of better subway transit such as a new Skytrain route in this corridor.

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by Alex Mackinnon

Look at the end of the each Canada Line spur. Look at the Expo and Millennium lines. Compare. Some have 2 tracks all the way to the end, some don't.

I also doubt that the Canada Line is going to exceed it's ultimate capacity any time soon. The Expo Line serves East Van, Burnaby, New Westminster, Surrey and interconnects with the Millennium Line.

The Canada Line only serves South Van, Richmond and YVR. There is way less potential for population and ridership growth on it's route. I doubt Richmond will have a population nearing 500K during my lifetime.

To be fair it serves South Delta and South Surrey too, which is growing fast.

I agree though that it will be a while until its max capacity becomes a critical issue.

[officedweller]

Originally Posted by Galaxy

It may be more realistic to look at other options too like building an additional line in a different part, therefore, increasing north-south capacity rather than expand the Canada Line.

Originally Posted by casper

You don't say.

In 50-100 years when Canada line is at capacity, there is this old Arbutus path the use to have a railway on it and its owned by the city.

Agreed.
The question fredinno should be asking is whether the Arbutus streetcar line would need to be upgraded to higher order LRT.

[Metro-One]

I have actually been toying with the idea of a higher order Arbutus LRT that could also transition to a new subway stretch throughout the western end of downtown and terminate at Waterfront.

[fredinno]

Originally Posted by Alex Mackinnon

Look at the end of the each Canada Line spur. Look at the Expo and Millennium lines. Compare. Some have 2 tracks all the way to the end, some don't.

I also doubt that the Canada Line is going to exceed it's ultimate capacity any time soon. The Expo Line serves East Van, Burnaby, New Westminster, Surrey and interconnects with the Millennium Line.

The Canada Line only serves South Van, Richmond and YVR. There is way less potential for population and ridership growth on it's route. I doubt Richmond will have a population nearing 500K during my lifetime.

The Canada Line appears to have single-tracked from Sea Island Centre to YVR, and from Landsome to Brighouse.

TBF, the capacity of a transit line is limited by the capacity of its most used section (ie, near downtown).





Anyways, I guess the hive-mind has spoken. No unintended transit upgrades here.

[Alex Mackinnon]

Originally Posted by fredinno

The Canada Line appears to have single-tracked from Sea Island Centre to YVR, and from Landsome to Brighouse.

TBF, the capacity of a transit line is limited by the capacity of its most used section (ie, near downtown).


Anyways, I guess the hive-mind has spoken. No unintended transit upgrades here.

The single track doesn't matter a huge amount at this point, but could limit the train frequency in the future. Trains could be short turned before that section though. Unlike the Expo and M-Line, there aren't a lot of pocket tracks which makes that a bit harder. It's unfortunate.

[fredinno]

I mean, I would appreciate if people ignored their own qualms with the idea of expanding the Canada Line, and helped answer my question.

I mean, it's not like Victoria or Artubus Relief Skytrain Lines don't have their own problems. Victoria Line would funnel more people into the busiest part of the Expo, cutting down its lifetime, and the Artubus Line would be winding, and go through a highly NIMBY area.