LeBreton Flats 2.0 (RendezVous LeBreton) | Cancelled

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by spotlight

Your post is incredibly deceiving ... You're making it seem as though there's next to nothing in Ottawa. The only ones that you listed that have their actual head offices in Quebec are: Simons, Industrial Alliance, familiprix and Promutuel.

Cominar is headquartered in Montreal, they might have offices in Quebec City but they have some in Ottawa too.

You try to make it seem as though simons is a bigger deal corporately than Giant Tiger. Simons has 2300 employees, giant Tiger has 8000 employees.. corporately Giant Tiger as a brand might not be as liked or as high browed as Simons but the operations are a lot bigger than simons.

Farm Boy can't be considered regional anymore with almost half of it's locations located outside of the region and about to grow even more after it's purchase by Sobeys.

the other companies you pointed to we have equivalent here. You seem to quickly glance over the companies that are in high tech in Ottawa. The previous ownership group ddi a great job in attracting the tech sector as corporate sponsors this Owner not so much. But there are many larger high tech firms in Ottawa obviously so you can't just glance over those.

Just off the top of my head (and i'm only including obvious high tech ones in this list):

Thermo Fisher Scientific: main Canadian head office of worldwide massive company, only their warehouses aren't in Ottawa

Mitel: World Headquarters

Survey Monkey: Main and only Canadian Office of large company

Shopify: World Headquarters

First Air: Main head office

Alterna Savings: Head Office

Canada Post: Technically government, but under their crown corp statute are a for profit and under different advertising regulations, they can't buy tickets but they can be a corporate supporter through main advertising.

Farm Boy: Head Office

Giant Tiger: Head Office

Costco: Canadian Head Office

Klipfolio: Head office

Lee Valley Tools: Head Office

Minto Group: Head office

Groupe Le Nordik (now with 2 spas: Chelsea/Winnipeg and soon in Whitby)

Nordion: Head office

Calian: Head office

IBM (not its main Canada Office, but its second largest in employee numbers)

Lockheed Martin Canada: Canadian head office and main office

Instant Pot: Head Office

Canopy Growth: Head Office Smith Falls/Ottawa (also home to many other Marijuana companies in the region)

Telesat: No longer a crown corp

That's just off the top of my head.. there are many more with either head offices or major offices.

I think the problem is how the Senators are approaching the companies. I'm in a decision making position at one of the companies i listed and how i've been approached by the Sens to buy season tickets or advertising is awful and completely puts me off from making a financial commitment to the team. (and no i'm not in the high tech sector)

My point was not to short-change Ottawa, but Quebec City does have a more traditional city economy (with a bigger private sector share, and more industry and such) than Ottawa does. It's not really in a disadvantageous position relative to Ottawa, in the way that some might think due to its size. And that study someone cited on this thread confirms what I am saying.)

I think anyone who is familiar with both cities can easily see this.

And BTW I am sure we can find lots of equivalents to Instant Pot and Spa Le Nordik type corporations based in Quebec City if we look hard enough.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by Acajack

My point was not to short-change Ottawa, but Quebec City does have a more traditional city economy (with a bigger private sector share, and more industry and such) than Ottawa does. It's not really in a disadvantageous position relative to Ottawa, in the way that some might think due to its size. And that study someone cited on this thread confirms what I am saying.)

I think anyone who is familiar with both cities can easily see this.

And BTW I am sure we can find lots of equivalents to Instant Pot and Spa Le Nordik type corporations based in Quebec City if we look hard enough.

This is true, but the relative size is more of a disadvantage than you are making it out to be. If you look at NHL franchise values, they are very closely correlated to TV market size, and Ottawa is considerably bigger than Quebec. Average incomes are also much higher in Ottawa. For those reasons, a team in Quebec is less valuable than a team in Ottawa.

PS - this idea that Quebec’s fan base is much better than Ottawa’s is a bit silly. Quebec has attendance issues through the 90s with a powerhouse team (in the sense that they weren’t consistently selling out their very small arena). The idea that they will automatically fill an 18000 seat arena year after year at current NHL prices is not a slam dunk by any stretch.

[acottawa]

I think that list of companies succinctly summarizes the Senators ongoing problem. A lot of regional or “brand” offices, a lot of 1 SKU companies and zero large companies that actually have an HQ here. I think only Mitel has revenue over a billion (shopify might be close). There are very few candidates for private boxes or for moving a large number of employees to the flats.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by phil235

This is true, but the relative size is more of a disadvantage than you are making it out to be. If you look at NHL franchise values, they are very closely correlated to TV market size, and Ottawa is considerably bigger than Quebec. Average incomes are also much higher in Ottawa. For those reasons, a team in Quebec is less valuable than a team in Ottawa.

I wonder if Ottawa would still be bigger if the hinterlands are counted.

[YOWflier]

If only we had more SKUs...

[Kitchissippi]

The bigger question if he moves the team is, how long will it take until Melnyk eventually leaves a bad taste in the mouths of the fans in Quebec City? Will they have more patience with him?

One huge advantage Ottawa has over Quebec City is our closer proximity to the US, and Americans often come up to see their team. I've had several friends across the border who are Penguins and Bruins fans drive up specifically for a game.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by phil235

PS - this idea that Quebec’s fan base is much better than Ottawa’s is a bit silly. Quebec has attendance issues through the 90s with a powerhouse team (in the sense that they weren’t consistently selling out their very small arena). The idea that they will automatically fill an 18000 seat arena year after year at current NHL prices is not a slam dunk by any stretch.

I think they were selling out pretty consistently during both the good and bad years, if you check the numbers.

Of the two Canadian teams that moved it was the Winnipeg Jets that had periodic attendance issues, not the Nordiques.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by phil235

This is true, but the relative size is more of a disadvantage than you are making it out to be. If you look at NHL franchise values, they are very closely correlated to TV market size, and Ottawa is considerably bigger than Quebec. Average incomes are also much higher in Ottawa. For those reasons, a team in Quebec is less valuable than a team in Ottawa.
.

I am not saying that a hypothetical NHL team in Quebec City is necessarily more valuable than one in Ottawa, but I don't think it's a cakewalk for Ottawa either.

I've already explained why I think that, and some of the studies cited in articles support what I am saying.

I'd also say that if the size of TV markets is a big driver of NHL team valuation that's pretty fucked up, given that in some large US markets the number of viewers for the local NHL club is about the same for seniors bowling on community TV.

But since we're talking about that, as soon as the Nordiques return (if they do) they instantly become the prime vehicle for TVA Sports. They basically have an entire 24 hour sports network devoted to them. And the parent company owns two newspapers (including the most read one in Quebec), multiple magazines and websites and the most watched mainstream TV network in the province. You seriously think the Senators have that type of an impact across Ontario? Similar to what the Nordiques had back in the day and would have all across Quebec?

Another thing is that many large businesses are shut out of the Habs universe as a sponsorship commodity because their competitors are already there. When the Nordiques were in the league, this led to a number of Montreal-based corporations that operated all across Quebec to become sponsors of the Nordiques, boosting their visibility all across the province. I've never seen this happen with the Senators, even though their arena's naming rights belong to Toronto-based Canadian Tire.

BTW, I am not anti-Ottawa. Just being realistic. And I never said anyone's baby was ugly.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I think they were selling out pretty consistently during both the good and bad years, if you check the numbers.

Of the two Canadian teams that moved it was the Winnipeg Jets that had periodic attendance issues, not the Nordiques.

They were definitely better than Winnipeg, but in their last 5 years, they never averaged over 15,000 fans, and they were as low as 13,600. Those numbers Donny compare favourably to Ottawa.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by Acajack

But since we're talking about that, as soon as the Nordiques return (if they do) they instantly become the prime vehicle for TVA Sports. They basically have an entire 24 hour sports network devoted to them. And the parent company owns two newspapers (including the most read one in Quebec), multiple magazines and websites and the most watched mainstream TV network in the province. You seriously think the Senators have that type of an impact across Ontario? Similar to what the Nordiques had back in the day and would have all across Quebec?

That’s not how the NHL divides up TV markets. Right now the Habs have all of Quebec as their territory. If the Nordiques were to come back, they would first need to pay the Habs a large fee for taking some of their territory. Then the league would carve out part of Quebec for the Nordiques, and you can be sure that wouldn’t include the populous areas of greater Montreal. They would have a similar issue to Ottawa’s, with a sliver of territory between Kingston and the Quebec border. That model could change with the rise of internet streaming, but for now TV markets are still very important.

(I’m not sure how Ottawa’s area compares to the Quebec hinterlands. With Gatineau included, I think Ottawa is still a fair bit bigger within a 90 minute drive, but that is a guess.)

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by phil235

That’s not how the NHL divides up TV markets. Right now the Habs have all of Quebec as their territory. If the Nordiques were to come back, they would first need to pay the Habs a large fee for taking some of their territory. Then the league would carve out part of Quebec for the Nordiques, and you can be sure that wouldn’t include the populous areas of greater Montreal. They would have a similar issue to Ottawa’s, with a sliver of territory between Kingston and the Quebec border. That model could change with the rise of internet streaming, but for now TV markets are still very important.

(I’m not sure how Ottawa’s area compares to the Quebec hinterlands. With Gatineau included, I think Ottawa is still a fair bit bigger within a 90 minute drive, but that is a guess.)

The Senators territory already overlaps the Habs territory and the franchise already paid a fee for that infringement. Not sure the league would charge it again or the Habs would be particularly disappointed as they would reaquire territory in the Ottawa Valley, Eastern Ontario and Western Quebec.

Except in the Valley, Ottawa’s hinterland does not extend 90 minutes.

Saguenay–Lac-Saint-Jean has almost 300k people, Bas-Saint-Laurent has 200k,
Chaudière-Appalaches has 400k.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by acottawa

The Senators territory already overlaps the Habs territory and the franchise already paid a fee for that infringement. Not sure the league would charge it again or the Habs would be particularly disappointed as they would reaquire territory in the Ottawa Valley, Eastern Ontario and Western Quebec.

Except in the Valley, Ottawa’s hinterland does not extend 90 minutes.

Saguenay–Lac-Saint-Jean has almost 300k people, Bas-Saint-Laurent has 200k,
Chaudière-Appalaches has 400k.

When I said 90 minutes, I was referring to the distance that fans will typically travel to watch a game, not the city’s economic influence per se.

Are you sure that the Sens paid the Habs when they came into the league? I’ve not heard that. My understanding is that the Sens area overlaps the Sens and Leafs in some spots, but no exclusive rights were given up. Based on what i’ve read, Quebec City is exclusive Habs territory, so I believe a payment would be required by a Quebec team.

[zzptichka]

Yeah sure. Broke owner of a cash-strapped and mortgaged to the brink team has to find a couple of hundred millions in relocation fees to move into a lesser market where the team wouldn't even own the arena. This is so absurd.

Love it when some random dude out of the blue decides to write a letter into Ottawa Sun with such a brilliant and well-articulated idea, and the paper deciding to publish it. Not suspicious at all.

[YOWflier]

^ Another of Melnyk's bots shills no doubt.

[AuxTown]

Can't find the original article I was referencing, but this article from 2017 outlines the issue nicely:

Lack of a strong corporate base

This is a biggie. Ottawa’s smallish business sector serves to diminish the impact of a regional population of 1.4 million. Professional sports leagues like the NHL use a model to assess potential corporate supporters — companies with at least $5 million in sales and 25 employees are considered able to afford NHL season tickets. On this basis, Ottawa is the smallest corporate entity in the league with about 900 suitable businesses. Winnipeg, by comparison, has more than 1,700 companies from which to draw, a source says.

I'll have to find the same stats for Quebec but I suspect they will be at least the same or more than Winnipeg.

[AuxTown]

Interesting article. I guess we have our answer. Quebec is sounding more and more of a risky endeavour the more I look at it.

But it notes in passing that Quebec City has less than any other city with an NHL franchise, while Winnipeg has more than Edmonton and Ottawa.

The Conference Board, an economic policy think-tank, bases its analysis on four factors that worked against the Nordiques and the Jets, who moved on in 1995 and 1996, respectively.


The four factors are:

demographic sizes of the market;
level of household incomes;
corporate presence;
and comparable conditions in other NHL cities.
It concludes that Quebec City and Winnipeg have bigger populations now than when the franchises first existed in the cities and that their populations have higher incomes.

The Board also says that thanks mainly to better market conditions, the two Canadian cities are in a more advantageous position — that's explained by the strong Canadian dollar compared to the U.S. dollar and the NHL cap on salaries.

Quebec City has fewer big companies than any NHL city
But the main negative aspect that still remains is the weak presence of major corporations in both cities.

In 2009, there were only 17 in Quebec City and 30 in Winnipeg.

Based on that number I would suspect that Quebec and Ottawa aren't far off from each. I know they say that Quebec would be the smallest corporate market, but the ratio above (17:30) would put them at 963 compared to Ottawa's 900. Either way, it's close.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/small-corporate-presence-hurts-canada-nhl-hopes-1.1060880

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by O-Town Hockey

Interesting article. I guess we have our answer. Quebec is sounding more and more of a risky endeavour the more I look at it.





Based on that number I would suspect that Quebec and Ottawa aren't far off from each. I know they say that Quebec would be the smallest corporate market, but the ratio above (17:30) would put them at 963 compared to Ottawa's 900. Either way, it's close.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/small-corporate-presence-hurts-canada-nhl-hopes-1.1060880

Yeah, that's what I'm saying. It's pretty close.

I've seen those numbers before - Winnipeg is more impressive than it appears at first glance.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by phil235

Are you sure that the Sens paid the Habs when they came into the league? I’ve not heard that. My understanding is that the Sens area overlaps the Sens and Leafs in some spots, but no exclusive rights were given up. Based on what i’ve read, Quebec City is exclusive Habs territory, so I believe a payment would be required by a Quebec team.

I can’t find a reference. It is something I have heard multiple times over the years, but it may well be an urban myth.

As a side note though, Molson has apparently stayed he would not seek additional compensation from a Quebec franchise.

https://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/nhl-expansion-relocation-houston-seattle-quebec-city/

[rocketphish]

While tangentially related to Lebreton, this whole 'will the Sens move' discussion really belongs in the Sens army HQ thread, IMO.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by rocketphish

While tangentially related to Lebreton, this whole 'will the Sens move' discussion really belongs in the Sens army HQ thread, IMO.

OK, so who can move all of these posts?