PHILADELPHIA | Highrise Development Thread IX

[cardeza]

Originally Posted by allovertown

My point wasn't that we can't look to the state for help, but that people need to wake up and stopping blaming the "feel good programs" for Philadelphia's economic problems.

Seriously, I'm at a loss for what you are even talking about when you say people would vote for someone who would raise business taxes over someone who would lower them. When was the last time ANYONE ran on raising business taxes in Philadelphia to fund a government program? They're basically universally recognized as too high already. I remember at least back to the Rendell era and efforts to lower business taxes and make the city more business friendly go back at least that far.

Something like mandating that employers need to create more regular schedules for their employees isn't a tax. It doesn't necessarily cost employers anything extra and it doesn't raise more money for city. There is also no evidence, anecdotal or otherwise that measures like this effect the business climate negatively. Even something more extreme like raising the minimum wage, would have basically no impact on scoring a company like Amazon or Apple. The vast majority of these laws affect the service industry, and as Londonee and others pointed out, the service industry is not going to respond drastically because they need to retain employees to maintain a competitive edge in a crowded marketplace.

Business taxes and the wage tax are basically the only two things that Philly can change that will make any serious difference to perspective employers and they're two things the city is basically powerless to change without assistance from the state. So my message wasn't to forget about the state because the state government is terrible and we can't depend on them. My message was that Philadelphia needs the state to be a partner and Philadelphians should do whatever they can to change the direction of the state.

Getting rid of the soda tax while the wage tax remains is like putting a band aid on a paper cut while you die of cancer.

Having GOP control of chambers in Harrisburg puts Philly in a really bad situation from a self governance standpoint. The state GOP attempts to pass laws to prevent or override local legislation in Philly they don't like. It's absurd and counterproductive. Not only do these legislators stay away from Philadelphia, they actively work to sabotage efforts to improve life here.

[cardeza]

Originally Posted by mcgrath618

I've said it before and I'll say it again: if Philadelphia had a better subway system it would only stand to benefit everybody. People would have better access to jobs as they would be able to go farther more quickly than they would on a bus, and development would spur along the stations. Just look at Washington Square and everything on Frankford.

The Philadelphia tax structure, while annoying and bass ackwards, is bearable. What is unbearable is the complete lack of funding provided to SEPTA to not only keep existing services running but expand upon them as well.

SEPTA got huge infusion of money after Act 89. Why would you think they are lacking funding? Their capital budget has more than doubled vs 5 years ago. New starts and line extensions only happen one of two ways a)feds cover lion's share of the cost or b)the region creates a tax or fee to fund construction. That's it. The former is becoming more and more rare as the Feds have pulled back on their commitment to funding new transit lines (it used to be be 80/20 funding split, now it's 50/50) and this region has no mechanism in place to pass funding initiatives by referendum and even if it did I doubt suburbanites would ever get on board with any regional tax to benefit SEPTA. System expansion isn't going to happen for SEPTA without a change in state and national priorities. The current capital funding levels aren't nearly enough to fund one or more expensive expansion projects.

[PhilliesPhan]

Originally Posted by Frontst17

It’s not 2000 anymore nor is it even 2010. You all seem lost in the ‘member berries. The city is doing really well attracting and keeping young talent now and even more so cultivating it. I’ve seen and experienced huge change in the last 2-3 years alone. Prime example being Lincoln square. I know a PCOM MD who just got an apt in roxborough takes public transit to sprouts 1-2 times a week (she previously had never taken so much as regional rail) and an engineer cousin who is now staying in powelton after getting his masters past spring. If these examples are on their own then so be it but there is real change and momentum happening regardless of or in spite of tired stereotypes and poor politics. Quit bitchin

I've come to find out that a strong portion of the people I graduated with actually ended up staying in the city. I moved to West Philly after obtaining my BBA in Finance from Temple, and I plan to stay in the city for the foreseeable future. One of my best buds from Fox is from New Hampshire. He could have easily looked for a position in the Boston area, but he decided to stay here as well.

I agree that Philly is currently on the right track. It's almost mindblowing to know that today's Philly is completely different compared to the city I grew up in. If we could change the structure of Council and lessen the burden of our onerous tax environment (although some of us are more than willing to pay the wage tax so we can live in the city), perhaps we could reverse the trend of domestic out-migration. Philly is primed for a level of growth that we haven't seen in a long time, and I feel like our time will come in the 2020s.

Also, I'd really like to see a survey done to compare how people of different age cohorts feel about the progress of the city. I'm technically Gen Z since I was born in 1995. Capturing my generation's attention will be key, as we are larger than the Millennial generation. Many of us are just starting to graduate from college, which means that the time to start convincing us to move to cities is now.

[PhilliesPhan]

Originally Posted by cardeza

SEPTA got huge infusion of money after Act 89. Why would you think they are lacking funding? Their capital budget has more than doubled vs 5 years ago. New starts and line extensions only happen one of two ways a)feds cover lion's share of the cost or b)the region creates a tax or fee to fund construction. That's it. The former is becoming more and more rare as the Feds have pulled back on their commitment to funding new transit lines (it used to be be 80/20 funding split, now it's 50/50) and this region has no mechanism in place to pass funding initiatives by referendum and even if it did I doubt suburbanites would ever get on board with any regional tax to benefit SEPTA. System expansion isn't going to happen for SEPTA without a change in state and national priorities. The current capital funding levels aren't nearly enough to fund one or more expensive expansion projects.

Even with Act 89, we still trail behind our regional peers in terms of capital funding. I'm thankful that we were able to pass it and provide SEPTA with the funding that it deserves (remember the doomsday scenario map, where most of the Regional Rail system was gone?), but you'd think that the Commonwealth would be more willing to provide funding to the region that it depends on. We pay more in taxes than we receive in benefits, after all.

Why can't we use our resources to expand our heavy rail (I don't want "light rail" or BRT since we have the densities to support heavy rail) system? Not only do we have a budget surplus, but we also have an AA+ municipal bond rating. We could easily use a combination of municipal debt and money from the general fund to bring Philly the increased subway access it needs. A subway traversing the length of Ridge Avenue, the Boulevard Subway, extending the BSL to Cheltenman and Ogontz Aves, and additional lines to South Philly would all help the city out tremendously. We should really push for federal funding for heavy rail expansions within the city once a more progressive candidate steps into the White House.

[Milksteak]

Originally Posted by PhilliesPhan

Even with Act 89, we still trail behind our regional peers in terms of capital funding. I'm thankful that we were able to pass it and provide SEPTA with the funding that it deserves (remember the doomsday scenario map, where most of the Regional Rail system was gone?), but you'd think that the Commonwealth would be more willing to provide funding to the region that it depends on. We pay more in taxes than we receive in benefits, after all.

Why can't we use our resources to expand our heavy rail (I don't want "light rail" or BRT since we have the densities to support heavy rail) system? Not only do we have a budget surplus, but we also have an AA+ municipal bond rating. We could easily use a combination of municipal debt and money from the general fund to bring Philly the increased subway access it needs. A subway traversing the length of Ridge Avenue, the Boulevard Subway, extending the BSL to Cheltenman and Ogontz Aves, and additional lines to South Philly would all help the city out tremendously. We should really push for federal funding for heavy rail expansions within the city once a more progressive candidate steps into the White House.

I'm not going to pretend to know the first thing about infrastructure and transportation spending, but didn't the study to see how much it would cost to extend the subway from the stadiums to the Navy Yard (literally a mile) cost tens of thousands of dollars? Everything you mentioned would be great, but there is no way in hell it's ever going to happen. We have a chance at additional light and heavy rail, but very few new subway tunnels are being dug these days. To be honest, if there were a proposed tax for new subway systems in the city, I would gladly support and pay it - and I live in the burbs.

[Urbanthusiat]

If I were a city government interested in expanding heavy rail right now, I'd be waiting to see if Elon Musk's Boring Company can actually significantly reduce the costs of tunneling.

[McBane]

Originally Posted by Frontst17

It’s not 2000 anymore nor is it even 2010. You all seem lost in the ‘member berries. The city is doing really well attracting and keeping young talent now and even more so cultivating it. I’ve seen and experienced huge change in the last 2-3 years alone. Prime example being Lincoln square. I know a PCOM MD who just got an apt in roxborough takes public transit to sprouts 1-2 times a week (she previously had never taken so much as regional rail) and an engineer cousin who is now staying in powelton after getting his masters past spring. If these examples are on their own then so be it but there is real change and momentum happening regardless of or in spite of tired stereotypes and poor politics. Quit bitchin

No one is bitchin - but some people, myself included, are making the distinction between Center City, University City, and surrounding neighborhoods that are doing fantastic vs the outlying neighborhoods (especially middle class ones) that are facing difficult challenges and even declines. And according to census data, all that growth and gentrification did not make a dent in the city's overall poverty rate, suggesting that the declines in outlying neighborhoods kept pace with gentrification in the core.

So if people want to say how great Center City is doing or how far places like University City or Fishtown have come over the past 10 years, you won't find anyone to argue otherwise; but statements that imply the entire city has never been better are just inaccurate.

[Nova08]

Septa is relatively underfunded when compared with other big city commuter agencies. That said, Septa put a ton of effort and money into upgrading to PTC. I'm pretty sure they were one of the first agencies to complete the upgrade while agencies like New Jersey transit are years late and still asking for Federal money to complete it.

I think Philly proper is relatively well connected. A few opportunities like a Boulevard subway or Patco to Penn are intriguing. But I think the opportunities really lie with heavy rail. Obviously there are a ton of obstacles to these opportunities. Septa's heavy rail network does not extend very far beyond city limits, again comparing to networks of other big cities. For it's size, West Chester, Pottstown, Quakertown (Allentown) should all be connected to Philly via rail.

[PhilliesPhan]

^The relative size of our Regional Rail network also leads to opportunities, however. While Allentown, West Chester, and Quakertown (as well as Newtown, New Hope, and a new Kennett Square/Oxford Line along existing ROW) would be worthwhile extensions, we currently have a Regional Rail system that is fully electrified, through-routed, and has multiple termini within Center City. SEPTA could easily convert the Regional Rail into a higher-frequency regional rapid transit system. There's no reason why certain lines shouldn't be running at 20 minute intervals during non-peak times. Some major capital investments, such as bolstering the number of high-platform stations and additional tracks along some lines, would be required, but the Regional Rail could easily fill in some gaps left open by our existing subway system. The Manayunk/Norristown and both Chestnut Hill Lines could provide frequent service to densely populated portions of Northwest Philly, for example.

When the Silverliner VI order is ready to be placed, SEPTA should seriously consider this as a goal. While the Silverliner IVs are excellent, the lack of center doors is a disadvantage for rapid transit. SEPTA should have also invested in the ALP-45 dual mode engine over the ACS-64, as they can run on both electrified and unelectrified territory, leading to system expansions that don't require electrification.

[PhilliesPhan]

Originally Posted by Milksteak

I'm not going to pretend to know the first thing about infrastructure and transportation spending, but didn't the study to see how much it would cost to extend the subway from the stadiums to the Navy Yard (literally a mile) cost tens of thousands of dollars? Everything you mentioned would be great, but there is no way in hell it's ever going to happen. We have a chance at additional light and heavy rail, but very few new subway tunnels are being dug these days. To be honest, if there were a proposed tax for new subway systems in the city, I would gladly support and pay it - and I live in the burbs.

What you just said is exactly why greater level of regional cooperation would not only help the city, but the entire Philadelphia area. I don't believe that some suburbanites realize the extent to which the region's success is dependent on the city. No matter what justifications companies put forth for selecting office locations outside of the city, companies still choose to place themselves within the region due to the infrastructure, talent, and synergistic relationships within the region, which the city is and has historically been primarily responsible for. A regional tax for new transit infrastructure would not only benefit the city, but the region as a whole. I'm confident that we will never build another highway within Philadelphia County (thankfully), so the only way to solve connectivity issues within the region is through transit.

[UrbanRevival]

Originally Posted by Nova08

I think Philly proper is relatively well connected. A few opportunities like a Boulevard subway or Patco to Penn are intriguing. But I think the opportunities really lie with heavy rail. Obviously there are a ton of obstacles to these opportunities. Septa's heavy rail network does not extend very far beyond city limits, again comparing to networks of other big cities. For it's size, West Chester, Pottstown, Quakertown (Allentown) should all be connected to Philly via rail.

The most frustrating aspect about the rail network is that all of the connectivity you describe above did exist at one time. It was short-shortsightedly discontinued in the great era of suburbanizaiton, as was the case in many US cities, in favor of car-centric commuting. Although American society is primarily to blame for squandering its once very impressive rail infrastructure, not SEPTA and similar agencies.

The good news is that this rail infrastructure/ROWs still exists, but it will take much more political will (particularly from Harrisburg) to see any meaningful traction on transit expansion. I agree that heavy rail extension is a no-brainer in many areas of the city, but first and foremost, there needs to be more innovative solutions to allow construction costs to decrease significantly, since nowadays any subway-type capital project is obscenely and prohibitively expensive.

[McBane]

The problem with SEPTA isn't a lack of lines, it's how they are used. The Regional Rail system is a huge asset but is grossly underutilized. It's designed to take suburbanites to and from work 5 days/week and for that, it does a pretty good job. (And that's also why the lines don't extend to Allentown, West Chester, Potttown, etc. b/c few people live up there and work in CC.) But say you and a companion or a group of friends want to go into town for dinner on a weekend? Or out of town guests want to explore Center City? Between the infrequent headways and the cumulative cost for all those train tickets, it will always be cheaper, faster, and easier to just drive and park in a lot.

I'd love to see Regional Rail operate more like DC's Metro with cheaper fares and more frequent service. Also, ditch the zones and attach a unique cost to each station based on distance to Center City to discourage riders from driving further than they need to in order to save money on fares. I know I'd rather see more service than extending lines way out to places that wouldn't utilize the rail service very often since they're outside of reasonable commuting distance.

[cardeza]

Originally Posted by PhilliesPhan

Even with Act 89, we still trail behind our regional peers in terms of capital funding. I'm thankful that we were able to pass it and provide SEPTA with the funding that it deserves (remember the doomsday scenario map, where most of the Regional Rail system was gone?), but you'd think that the Commonwealth would be more willing to provide funding to the region that it depends on. We pay more in taxes than we receive in benefits, after all.

Why can't we use our resources to expand our heavy rail (I don't want "light rail" or BRT since we have the densities to support heavy rail) system? Not only do we have a budget surplus, but we also have an AA+ municipal bond rating. We could easily use a combination of municipal debt and money from the general fund to bring Philly the increased subway access it needs. A subway traversing the length of Ridge Avenue, the Boulevard Subway, extending the BSL to Cheltenman and Ogontz Aves, and additional lines to South Philly would all help the city out tremendously. We should really push for federal funding for heavy rail expansions within the city once a more progressive candidate steps into the White House.

I think subway extensions are nothing more than pipe dreams at this stage- astronomical costs are associated with new subway tunnels and unlike NYC we don't have the density to really justify spending $200M per mile or whatever it costs these days. The way SEPTA was formed and is governed is not conducive to regional funding plans- it's totally dependent on state/federal subsidies for funding and the region actually has minimal control or funding responsibility with regards to SEPTA. Other regions are fortunate enough to have state laws and regional agreements that allow ballot initiatives to be an option to create dedicated funding streams. Many argue that new rail lines rarely come close to being justified when the costs are considered- some are arguing that with regards to the K of P extension which is only projected to add 9000 or so riders a day under the best circumstances.

[Milksteak]

Originally Posted by McBane

But say you and a companion or a group of friends want to go into town for dinner on a weekend? Or out of town guests want to explore Center City? Between the infrequent headways and the cumulative cost for all those train tickets, it will always be cheaper, faster, and easier to just drive and park in a lot.

I'd love to see Regional Rail operate more like DC's Metro with cheaper fares and more frequent service. Also, ditch the zones and attach a unique cost to each station based on distance to Center City to discourage riders from driving further than they need to in order to save money on fares. I know I'd rather see more service than extending lines way out to places that wouldn't utilize the rail service very often since they're outside of reasonable commuting distance.

Yep, this all the way. Unless I'm going into the city to have more than a couple (which is rare these days)...I drive. No adhering to the once an hour schedule, I will get in faster (train is 45 minutes - plus more when you account for getting to the station and making sure you are 5-10 mins early, driving is 30 minutes with no traffic), and parking - while expensive, isn't that much more than the train ticket itself. If I had to go in every day, I'd probably take RR...but other than that I haven't taken it for well over a year (and I'm in the city at least 1-2 times/month).

[cardeza]

Originally Posted by McBane

The problem with SEPTA isn't a lack of lines, it's how they are used. The Regional Rail system is a huge asset but is grossly underutilized. It's designed to take suburbanites to and from work 5 days/week and for that, it does a pretty good job. (And that's also why the lines don't extend to Allentown, West Chester, Potttown, etc. b/c few people live up there and work in CC.) But say you and a companion or a group of friends want to go into town for dinner on a weekend? Or out of town guests want to explore Center City? Between the infrequent headways and the cumulative cost for all those train tickets, it will always be cheaper, faster, and easier to just drive and park in a lot.

I'd love to see Regional Rail operate more like DC's Metro with cheaper fares and more frequent service. Also, ditch the zones and attach a unique cost to each station based on distance to Center City to discourage riders from driving further than they need to in order to save money on fares. I know I'd rather see more service than extending lines way out to places that wouldn't utilize the rail service very often since they're outside of reasonable commuting distance.

Commuter rail is probably the most expensive way to move people via mass transit for a host of reasons. RR is not akin to a subway and is totally incapable of providing the type of service subways provide at similar cost. A subway needs less labor, offers superior reliability, has totally dedicated tracks with no conflicts and shorter lines which allow trains to cycle between terminal points relatively frequently. On top of that the sub/EL travel through more densely populated areas where constant ridership is more feasible. The reality of RR is that during the day most suburban stations are absolutely dead. The stations are flooded with activity at rush hour and demand is minimal off peak. If you ride a RR train mid-day with current service levels you will find trains that are 75% empty- and I'm talking about in CC- it probably gets worse as the trains move out of CC towards their destinations.

[Radio5]

Anybody know the status of 1301 Market st?

[Frontst17]

Originally Posted by McBane

The problem with SEPTA isn't a lack of lines, it's how they are used. The Regional Rail system is a huge asset but is grossly underutilized. It's designed to take suburbanites to and from work 5 days/week and for that, it does a pretty good job. (And that's also why the lines don't extend to Allentown, West Chester, Potttown, etc. b/c few people live up there and work in CC.) But say you and a companion or a group of friends want to go into town for dinner on a weekend? Or out of town guests want to explore Center City? Between the infrequent headways and the cumulative cost for all those train tickets, it will always be cheaper, faster, and easier to just drive and park in a lot.

I'd love to see Regional Rail operate more like DC's Metro with cheaper fares and more frequent service. Also, ditch the zones and attach a unique cost to each station based on distance to Center City to discourage riders from driving further than they need to in order to save money on fares. I know I'd rather see more service than extending lines way out to places that wouldn't utilize the rail service very often since they're outside of reasonable commuting distance.

Again couldn’t disagree more. I use regional rail quite often as does everyone I know none of whom solely use it to get to their jobs. It’s also pretty cheap compared to other large cities’ commuter service. I regularly get on at jenkintown after work and meet friends coming from SJ or Ardmore for drinks downtown. It’s quite easy and convenient and always an option. I find it hard to believe we’re the only ones. It does need to be more frequent although stops such as jenkintown run every 20-30 mins during the week. Weekend service needs to pick up and like you and others have stated places like west Chester are left out in the cold and seem isolated.

[Milksteak]

Originally Posted by Frontst17

Again couldn’t disagree more. I use regional rail quite often as does everyone I know none of whom solely use it to get to their jobs. It’s also pretty cheap compared to other large cities’ commuter service. I regularly get on at jenkintown after work and meet friends coming from SJ or Ardmore for drinks downtown. It’s quite easy and convenient and always an option. I find it hard to believe we’re the only ones. It does need to be more frequent although stops such as jenkintown run every 20-30 mins during the week. Weekend service needs to pick up and like you and others have stated places like west Chester are left out in the cold and seem isolated.

Just because the train works for you doesn't mean it works everywhere. It makes sense that you take the train from Jenkintown, the only easy way to drive in is down Broad Street to Roosevelt...that's a nightmare. Plus you get a train every 20 minutes, and it takes less than 30 to get to Jefferson...there's no reason you shouldn't use the train. For me it's hit 95 straight into the city, or wait for a train that comes once an hour with a 45 minute train ride. I'm less than 20 miles from city hall as the crow flies, so there are plenty of people further away that have a more difficult ride.

[mcgrath618]

Originally Posted by Radio5

Anybody know the status of 1301 Market st?

Unfortunately it is likely dead in the water. I think I heard the development firm declared bankruptcy.

[summersm343]

Originally Posted by mcgrath618

Unfortunately it is likely dead in the water. I think I heard the development firm declared bankruptcy.

No, they haven’t.