VIA Rail network developments

[GoTrans]

Originally Posted by GoTrans

Siemens is supposedly purchasing 20% Canadian content.

Note the following information from The Canadian Press claiming an additional option of 16 more trains if HFR proceeds.

Julien Arsenault, The Canadian Press
Published Wednesday, December 12, 2018 1:47PM EST
Last Updated Wednesday, December 12, 2018 4:03PM EST
MONTREAL -- Via Rail has selected Siemens over Bombardier Inc. for a $989-million contract to modernize its passenger rail service along Canada's key rail corridor between Quebec City and Windsor, Ont.
However, the German manufacturer could receive up to about $500 million more from the state-owned railway if it exercises options for another 16 trains on top of the 32 awarded Wednesday.
The increased order could take place if the federal government approves Via Rail's plan to add frequencies between Quebec City and Toronto, said chief executive Yves Desjardins-Siciliano.
It expects Ottawa will announce a decision next year on the project that includes a rail network dedicated to passenger traffic.
Under the contract that doesn't require any local content, Siemens will build the trains at its North American headquarters in California.
The new trains that will maintain Via Rail's capacity of 9,100 seats should enter into service in 2022 with deliveries staggered until 2024.
Via Rail and Siemens also announced a 15-year technical services and parts agreement valued at $355.5 million.
Rumours of Via Rail's decision not to select Bombardier have provoked resentment in Quebec where Bombardier is struggling to fill the order book at its La Pocatiere plant.
In a press conference, Siciliano repeated the arguments previously made by federal Transport Minister Marc Garneau that the decision to bypass Bombardier is justified because Canada's free trade agreements with the European Union and the United States don't allow Via Rail to favour Bombardier in the awarding of contracts.
He said Via Rail couldn't consider economic benefits in its evaluation of tender bids.
"The opinions of our experts were that Via Rail is named in these (free trade) agreements and is prohibited from demanding Canadian content," he told reporters. "We have complied with the rules. "
Siemens has opened the door to offer up to 20 per cent of the value of contracts announced Wednesday to Canadian subcontractors but there is no guarantee they will be selected from bids submitted.
A disappointed Bombardier Transportation said in a statement that it is "inconceivable" that a contract for a train that will pass "two national capitals" does not generate a maximum of local benefits.
It claimed that Via Rail twice refused to consider a revised proposal.
"This offer was supported by the Quebec government, had increased local economic benefits, and included the use of green technologies," said Bombardier. "We will take the time necessary to analyze the Via Rail process and its decisions, and evaluate our options."

[Truenorth00]

Next time, Quebec should come to the table with an offer to buy the trains for VIA, if they want the jobs so badly.

[c_speed3108]

They need more than just double track.

The new trains are capable of 200km/h but would need Class 7 track. Or even Class 6 for (177km/h).

Currently the freight tracks max out at class 5 = 150km/h (or 160km/h for LRC)

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Next time, Quebec should come to the table with an offer to buy the trains for VIA, if they want the jobs so badly.

Spending a billion dollars and creating zero jobs in Canada seems a little ridiculous.

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by c_speed3108

They need more than just double track.

The new trains are capable of 200km/h but would need Class 7 track. Or even Class 6 for (177km/h).

Currently the freight tracks max out at class 5 = 150km/h (or 160km/h for LRC)

IIRC anything higher than class 6 requires full grade separation per TC regulations.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by acottawa

Spending a billion dollars and creating zero jobs in Canada seems a little ridiculous.

Why stop with trains? Should every government contract be given to a Canadian firm?

And are you prepared for Canadian companies to lose access to larger markets as their governments retaliate?

[sleye]

Originally Posted by acottawa

Spending a billion dollars and creating zero jobs in Canada seems a little ridiculous.

Spending a billion dollars on an inferior bid to create jobs in Canada seems very ridiculous.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Why stop with trains? Should every government contract be given to a Canadian firm?

And are you prepared for Canadian companies to lose access to larger markets as their governments retaliate?

That is how most government procurement works. As I said in an earlier post, despite these trade rules, somehow other countries always seem to buy locally-made trains.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by sleye

Spending a billion dollars on an inferior bid to create jobs in Canada seems very ridiculous.

How the spec is usually written is usually pretty arbitrary.

[Kitchissippi]

Originally Posted by acottawa

How the spec is usually written is usually pretty arbitrary.

If a Canadian company can't compete in their own country, they are doing something wrong. Even if the spec is arbitrary, by virtue of being Canadian they should have a better understanding of what's needed here and how things are done. They should suck up and learn how to sharpen their pencils to compete instead of expecting some sort of entitlement every time a contract comes up in Canada.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by acottawa

How the spec is usually written is usually pretty arbitrary.

Do you have a basis for this claim?

[OtrainUser]

Originally Posted by acottawa

How the spec is usually written is usually pretty arbitrary.

That was not the reason Bombardier lost the contract. The real reason is that they have a poor track record on delivering their products on time.

[Horus]

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

If a Canadian company can't compete in their own country, they are doing something wrong. Even if the spec is arbitrary, by virtue of being Canadian they should have a better understanding of what's needed here and how things are done. They should suck up and learn how to sharpen their pencils to compete instead of expecting some sort of entitlement every time a contract comes up in Canada.

This!

Bombardier is in no way entitled to this contract and I'm glad that VIA resisted any pressure to accept an inferior bid.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by c_speed3108

They need more than just double track.

The new trains are capable of 200km/h but would need Class 7 track. Or even Class 6 for (177km/h).

Currently the freight tracks max out at class 5 = 150km/h (or 160km/h for LRC)

To achieve improved travel times compared to LRCs, I agree (though not all corridore trains are using LRCs). This purchase isn't about that though. It is about continuing operations as the existing fleet is reaching its end of life. The higher top speed is to make them not become obsolete when the track is upgraded.

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

IIRC anything higher than class 6 requires full grade separation per TC regulations.

Does TC have this requirement? TC E-54 Subpart A doesn't even mention class 6 or higher track. Typically they follow FRA regulations, and as I showed in this post, they don't require full segregation until over 125 mph (201 km/h).

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Catenary

Siemens has seemed like the most likely option, considering their current offerings of the Charger, ACS, and Brightline/state Amtrak cars. They're building cab cars with the non-aerodynamic Charger design for the Amtrak order, so those combined with a locomotive to allow push-pull operation would fit VIA's needs quite nicely.

I was just talking to a VIA Rail conductor (happened to be travelling to Montreal today) and he said that they will have an engine at each end like Brightline, not a cab car.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by phil235

Do you have a basis for this claim?

Any AG report on procurement. Specs are constantly changed or manipulated for political reasons, to avoid embarrassment for officials, to favour a proponent, etc. It this case it is even more obvious because the specs are mostly based on an imaginary service that doesn’t exist, has no approval or funding.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by acottawa

Any AG report on procurement. Specs are constantly changed or manipulated for political reasons, to avoid embarrassment for officials, to favour a proponent, etc. It this case it is even more obvious because the specs are mostly based on an imaginary service that doesn’t exist, has no approval or funding.

More often than not the specs are selected to match the product of their preferred choice of vendors (similar to the way a job description can be tailored to match the qualifications of a preferred candidate). It wouldn't surprise me if VIA matched their specifications to the Siemens train (possibly with some minor adjustments for the Canadian climate).

[Catenary]

Originally Posted by roger1818

I was just talking to a VIA Rail conductor (happened to be travelling to Montreal today) and he said that they will have an engine at each end like Brightline, not a cab car.

I don't know about that - the VIA Rail release shows cab cars. https://www.viarail.ca/en/about-via-rail/fleet-renewal

Brightline runs relatively long trains, with lower horsepower Chargers bookending the consists. VIA has somewhat shorter trains, but could run with one higher horsepower locomotive.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Catenary

I don't know about that - the VIA Rail release shows cab cars. https://www.viarail.ca/en/about-via-rail/fleet-renewal

In the video it shows an engine at each end, but you are right that this picture shows a cab car. All of the pictures show the pointed nose, which is more like the Brightline engines.

Brightline runs relatively long trains, with lower horsepower Chargers bookending the consists. VIA has somewhat shorter trains, but could run with one higher horsepower locomotive.

According to Wikipedia (and all of the pictures I have seen), Brigthtline has 4 car trains. From my experience, VIA's corridor trains range from 4-6 cars, so they aren't "somewhat shorter" as you claim.

On a somewhat related note, I gather the Brightline trians use semi-permanent couplers, which can only be uncoupled in the shop, but makes walking between cars easier. I wonder if VIA will use the same or standard couplers to make it easier to build different trainset configurations as needed?

One other thing I noticed in the press release it says: "VIA Rail will retire a portion of its current fleet starting 2019" but they won't start to receive new trains until 2022. Which cars are being retired and what will they do in the meantime?

[J.OT13]

Good to have bi-directional trains. That will make for a much more efficient exit at Montreal's Central Station and Québec's Gare du Palais.

Speaking of stations:


https://twitter.com/rail613/status/1072943227056074752