Kanata LRT EA - Bayshore to Palladium

[TransitZilla]

Originally Posted by SF Thomas

The publisher of Stittsville Central (a local news website/blog), is speculating that LRT could go to Barrhaven next after LRT Phase 2 instead of Kanata. This is mainly as a re-election ploy for Jim Watson and to appease Lisa MacLeod who is now Ottawa's main point of contact with the provincial government since the PCs won.

If LRT to Barrhaven proceeds first, then corridor section between Eagleson and Terry Fox should proceed as a busway as an interim step.

Regardless of the technology used, transit along this corridor is crucial to improving transit service in Kanata and to provide a north/south connection at Eagleson station where none currently exists. This project in some form (whether BRT or LRT) would provide far more benefit than simply replacing the existing BRT to Barrhaven with LRT.

(Disclaimer: I grew up in Kanata, but I no longer live there).

[lrt's friend]

Interesting that they mentioned getting the support of Pierre Poilievre in the article, who also represents Barrhaven, Riverside South and Findlay Creek.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Interesting that they mentioned getting the support of Pierre Poilievre in the article, who also represents Barrhaven, Riverside South and Findlay Creek.

It says to petition him for his support, not that he supports the Kanata-Stittsville extension.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by roger1818

I added a comment to the article. Lets see if the moderator approves it or if he will squash dissenting voices.

It took a while, but it got approved (as did a rather nasty comment about the former editor).

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Interesting that they mentioned getting the support of Pierre Poilievre in the article, who also represents Barrhaven, Riverside South and Findlay Creek.

Barrhaven isn't part of that riding; its in Nepean. Chandra Arya's turf.

[J.OT13]

New Kanata LRT report released to the public. Thank you Richard Akerman (whoever you are) for Tweeting.


https://twitter.com/rakerman/status/1066701986244911104

I guess the last one on the link is the updated report.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/c7yjnw2x6awgkqy/AACwIQ-RYFU6M1QtCGxNCBBga?dl=0

[rakerman]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

New Kanata LRT report released to the public. Thank you Richard Akerman (whoever you are) for Tweeting.


https://twitter.com/rakerman/status/1066701986244911104

I guess the last one on the link is the updated report.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/c7yjnw2x6awgkqy/AACwIQ-RYFU6M1QtCGxNCBBga?dl=0

You're welcome.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by rakerman

You're welcome.

Thought the name was familiar

[J.OT13]

Sounds like Watson wants the Feds and Province to split Stage 3 50/50, with the City not having to contribute anything.

He was on the Rick Gibbons show Thursday (Hour 2, 18:00 minute mark), and mentioned the 50/50 ask at around the 33:50 mark in response to Gibbons' suggestion that maybe Melnyk would be willing to pitch-in for Stage 3.

Considering the City was short changed on the initial line, not only by having to pay more than its third, but compared to funding formulas elsewhere, and the fact that the Feds and Province split the Trim and Airport extension, it's not that crazy. Ford also wants to take over the TTC subway and build subways, subways, subways to the burbs, so what's a few billion for his constituents in west Ottawa?

https://www.1310news.com/audio/the-rick-gibbons-show/

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Sounds like Watson wants the Feds and Province to split Stage 3 50/50, with the City not having to contribute anything.

He was on the Rick Gibbons show Thursday (Hour 2, 18:00 minute mark), and mentioned the 50/50 ask at around the 33:50 mark in response to Gibbons' suggestion that maybe Melnyk would be willing to pitch-in for Stage 3.

Considering the City was short changed on the initial line, not only by having to pay more than its third, but compared to funding formulas elsewhere, and the fact that the Feds and Province split the Trim and Airport extension, it's not that crazy. Ford also wants to take over the TTC subway and build subways, subways, subways to the burbs, so what's a few billion for his constituents in west Ottawa?

https://www.1310news.com/audio/the-rick-gibbons-show/

Most of that is to Conservative ridings. Worth a shot.....

[shawkr]

I apologize if this discussion has been exhausted, but does the proposed extension serve any purpose other than as a sequence of park 'n rides?

[AuxTown]

Originally Posted by shawkr

I apologize if this discussion has been exhausted, but does the proposed extension serve any purpose other than as a sequence of park 'n rides?

The station at Terry Fox is built among over 1000000 square feet of retail, 3 hotels, hundreds of recently-built apartment units, and walking distance to 2 high schools. But what it doesn't serve is the 1000's of high tech workers on March. I guess the train does have to stop somewhere though. One might argue that getting out to the P&R on Eagleson is enough but I think the short extension to Terry Fox would be well worth it.

[kmcamp]

Originally Posted by O-Town Hockey

The station at Terry Fox is built among over 1000000 square feet of retail, 3 hotels, hundreds of recently-built apartment units, and walking distance to 2 high schools. But what it doesn't serve is the 1000's of high tech workers on March. I guess the train does have to stop somewhere though. One might argue that getting out to the P&R on Eagleson is enough but I think the short extension to Terry Fox would be well worth it.

Definitely. Past Terry Fox is a bit more questionable though

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by shawkr

I apologize if this discussion has been exhausted, but does the proposed extension serve any purpose other than as a sequence of park 'n rides?

An extension to Kanata saves hundreds (closer to 1000) of buses from having to drive through the greenbelt (each train replaces at least 6 buses). It will likely also reduce the number of cars driving through the greenbelt and into town.

Originally Posted by O-Town Hockey

The station at Terry Fox is built among over 1000000 square feet of retail, 3 hotels, hundreds of recently-built apartment units, and walking distance to 2 high schools. But what it doesn't serve is the 1000's of high tech workers on March. I guess the train does have to stop somewhere though. One might argue that getting out to the P&R on Eagleson is enough but I think the short extension to Terry Fox would be well worth it.

Agreed. The extension is very cheap as the Kanata Ave Overpass was built with a busway underpass that has never been used and can easily be used for LRT.

Originally Posted by kmcamp

Definitely. Past Terry Fox is a bit more questionable though

I agree 100%. It becomes a law of diminishing returns.

[CityTech]

I think it was $750M to stop it at Terry Fox, but with something like $1.5B to go all the way to Hazeldean...

A two-way split might not be feasible. Ottawas aren't valuable enough voters for the Ford government to care, for one.

[shawkr]

Originally Posted by O-Town Hockey

The station at Terry Fox is built among over 1000000 square feet of retail, 3 hotels, hundreds of recently-built apartment units, and walking distance to 2 high schools. But what it doesn't serve is the 1000's of high tech workers on March. I guess the train does have to stop somewhere though. One might argue that getting out to the P&R on Eagleson is enough but I think the short extension to Terry Fox would be well worth it.

I find it hard to imagine many people taking the train to any of those destinations. Ottawa proper has its own Best Buys and high schools. And I doubt very many of the "nearby" apartment dwellers will want to walk 1+ km through a giant parking lot to get to the train. Those people have cars, and likely work in Kanata anyway. You don't tolerate the commute from Kanata so that you can live in a high-rise.

I agree that extending LRT to Eagleson is probably worth it. The further extension to Terry Fox only seems worth it if having a second LRT link enables more efficient access for bus connectors and park 'n riders.

I guess I just think it's sad that we're planning a $1B public transit expansion that will have hardly any actual pedestrian links.

[TransitZilla]

Originally Posted by shawkr

I find it hard to imagine many people taking the train to any of those destinations. Ottawa proper has its own Best Buys and high schools. And I doubt very many of the "nearby" apartment dwellers will want to walk 1+ km through a giant parking lot to get to the train. Those people have cars, and likely work in Kanata anyway. You don't tolerate the commute from Kanata so that you can live in a high-rise.

I agree that extending LRT to Eagleson is probably worth it. The further extension to Terry Fox only seems worth it if having a second LRT link enables more efficient access for bus connectors and park 'n riders.

I guess I just think it's sad that we're planning a $1B public transit expansion that will have hardly any actual pedestrian links.

Once you have reached Eagleson (which will actually be west of Eagleson Rd), the further extension to Terry Fox will be relatively cheap. There are not even any grade separations required because the underpass at Kanata Ave. already exists. That stretch would actually have 2 stations: one at Terry Fox and one at the pedestrian overpass, directly beside the large apartment complex.

The main problem with transit service in Kanata today is the lack of connections. Most westbound service to north Kanata bypasses Eagleson, but that is where service from the south connects. That is why it is so difficult to travel north-south in Kanata. There are also poor connections to Kanata Centrum (which is a major activity node) from north Kanata.

Having an LRT with a transfer station at Eagleson will fix the north/south connection problem and having the LRT run to Terry Fox will fix the second problem.

There is not a lot of infill potential around Eagleson, but there is at the Kanata Town Centre (across the overpass) and at the Centrum itself.

[J.OT13]

To serve Kanata North, and maybe the DND, I'd like to see the City, the Kanata North BIA and DND work on an automated vehicle route that would serve the two employment hubs as well as Eagleson and Moodie stations. This could be done relatively cheaply with "bus" lanes around the business park, down the highway and around the Nortel campus compared to the billion or so it would cost for a rail spur. It would also be a great way to showcase automated vehicle technology.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by CityTech

I think it was $750M to stop it at Terry Fox, but with something like $1.5B to go all the way to Hazeldean....

The gap is even wider than that. It is only $710M to Terry Fox and $1.85B to go all the way to Hazeldean. As I described in post #1224 of the Bayview to Baseline/Moodie View Single Post thread, that is just over 1/3 (38%) of the cost for building well over half (57%) of the track.

Originally Posted by shawkr

I find it hard to imagine many people taking the train to any of those destinations. Ottawa proper has its own Best Buys and high schools.

Don't forget a large movie theatre and many bars and reastaurants within easy walking distance.

I agree that extending LRT to Eagleson is probably worth it. The further extension to Terry Fox only seems worth it if having a second LRT link enables more efficient access for bus connectors and park 'n riders.

I wouldn't undervalue those bus connections.

I guess I just think it's sad that we're planning a $1B public transit expansion that will have hardly any actual pedestrian links.

As bradnixon said, there will be a third station between the two near the pedestrian overpass, which opens things up to pedestrians and cyclists on the other side of the Queensway.

Originally Posted by J.OT13

To serve Kanata North, and maybe the DND, I'd like to see the City, the Kanata North BIA and DND work on an automated vehicle route that would serve the two employment hubs as well as Eagleson and Moodie stations. This could be done relatively cheaply with "bus" lanes around the business park, down the highway and around the Nortel campus compared to the billion or so it would cost for a rail spur. It would also be a great way to showcase automated vehicle technology.

It might work for Kanata North (though it would be a bit long a route) but I can't imagine DND letting a driverless public transportation vehicle through their security perimeter without giving it a security sweep first, bringing into question the advantage of having it automated.

[CityTech]

Originally Posted by roger1818

The gap is even wider than that. It is only $710M to Terry Fox and $1.85B to go all the way to Hazeldean. As I described in post #1224 of the Bayview to Baseline/Moodie View Single Post thread, that is just over 1/3 (38%) of the cost for building well over half (57%) of the track.

Holy sh*t. $1.14B just from Terry Fox to Hazeldean??? That has to have the least value for money of any possible rail project in this city.

By contrast, $710M from Moodie to Terry Fox is actually a bargain. That's pretty small potatoes in the grand scheme of things (pretty easy for each of the 3 governments to afford $240M each), and solves a lot of the transit problems in the area, as bradnixon pointed out. I'm on board.

But that further extension.. just forget about it. I don't think it will ever be worth it.