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  #2001  
Old Posted Dec 8, 2018, 11:17 AM
Charles5 Charles5 is offline
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Originally Posted by OCCheetos View Post
That being said though, MOOSE has the written support of the Mayor of Smiths Falls (at least in regards to the PoW bridge, or more generally, regional rail). Potvin has also said that he's received interest from other towns/areas, but I don't recall him going into much more detail on those.
As someone that has followed the issue of MOOSE rail over several years now, and has had some interaction/communication with Joseph Potvin, it appears pretty obvious to me that the letter from the Mayor of Smiths Falls was most likely written by Joseph Potvin and simply signed by the Mayor. The style, tone, content is consistent with the way Joseph Potvin writes.

In some respects I don't blame some local town councils for falling behind MOOSE rail. Smiths Falls as an example lost a number of major employers, the unemployment rate was/is high, people were moving away, and things were not looking good for a while. Then along comes someone who promises to bring development opportunities and a transportation system, all at 'no cost' to the city or the taxpayer. So they jump on board without considering or realizing the feasibility of the project or the true costs behind it.

Note: From Stats Can it appears from 2011-2016 the population of the town of Smiths Falls population dropped by 2.2 percent and the greater 'population center' dropped by 4.2 percent. (link1, link2)

Last edited by Charles5; Dec 8, 2018 at 11:40 AM.
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  #2002  
Old Posted Dec 8, 2018, 2:15 PM
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J.OT13 J.OT13 is offline
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Smiths Falls is currently going through a renaissance with the marijuana industry. They don't need MOOSE to help the town.

EDIT: Worth mentioning Tweed opened in 2014, the letter was written in 2016 and the pot industry really launched later on when it became clear it would be legalized.

Last edited by J.OT13; Dec 8, 2018 at 2:29 PM.
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  #2003  
Old Posted Dec 8, 2018, 9:45 PM
OCCheetos OCCheetos is offline
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Originally Posted by J.OT13 View Post
Smiths Falls is currently going through a renaissance with the marijuana industry. They don't need MOOSE to help the town.

EDIT: Worth mentioning Tweed opened in 2014, the letter was written in 2016 and the pot industry really launched later on when it became clear it would be legalized.
The mayor has stated his support for regional rail as recently as this past October (including MOOSE by name) in an election debate.
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  #2004  
Old Posted Dec 8, 2018, 9:56 PM
OtrainUser OtrainUser is offline
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Originally Posted by OCCheetos View Post
The mayor has stated his support for regional rail as recently as this past October (including MOOSE by name) in an election debate.
He also mentions VIA rail which the federal government is spending 3.5 billion to improve service in the Quebec to windsor corridor which includes more service to Smiths falls. Notice how expensive improving service is and not cheap like how you and Potvin want us to beleive.
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  #2005  
Old Posted Dec 8, 2018, 10:07 PM
OtrainUser OtrainUser is offline
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Originally Posted by OCCheetos View Post
The mayor has stated his support for regional rail as recently as this past October (including MOOSE by name) in an election debate.

Here is more stuff you should be reading.
These are the some of the numbers im looking for from potvin

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/pol...-request-for-new-trains/article37714915/

So don't you even dare say commuter rail is going to be cheap when even the federal government knows its not and they know much better since they own VIA Rail.

There is no way around it, commuter Rail is going to cost Billions that Potvin doesnt have and wont have.
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  #2006  
Old Posted Dec 8, 2018, 10:39 PM
OCCheetos OCCheetos is offline
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Originally Posted by OtrainUser View Post
He also mentions VIA rail which the federal government is spending 3.5 billion to improve service in the Quebec to windsor corridor which includes more service to Smiths falls. Notice how expensive improving service is and not cheap like how you and Potvin want us to beleive.
Quote:
Originally Posted by OtrainUser View Post
Here is more stuff you should be reading.
These are the some of the numbers im looking for from potvin

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/pol...-request-for-new-trains/article37714915/

So don't you even dare say commuter rail is going to be cheap when even the federal government knows its not and they know much better since they own VIA Rail.

There is no way around it, commuter Rail is going to cost Billions that Potvin doesnt have and wont have.
Is this like when you couldn't tell the difference between $40 million/km urban rail and $5 million/km commuter rail? Because it sounds awfully familiar.

Do you even know what the HFR project is proposing? Do you know the differences between what VIA is proposing and what MOOSE or any other commuter/regional rail project is proposing?

By the way, here are some of MOOSE's rough numbers:
https://www.letsgomoose.ca/wp-content/uploads/AnnexB_Moose-Project125-Summary_V7_2016-06-20_PDF.pdf

~$5-10 million in study funding
~$900 million in capital
~$200 million per year in operational costs.

Those are of course 2 years old and very very rough estimates.
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  #2007  
Old Posted Dec 8, 2018, 11:06 PM
OtrainUser OtrainUser is offline
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Originally Posted by OCCheetos View Post
Is this like when you couldn't tell the difference between $40 million/km urban rail and $5 million/km commuter rail? Because it sounds awfully familiar.

Do you even know what the HFR project is proposing? Do you know the differences between what VIA is proposing and what MOOSE or any other commuter/regional rail project is proposing?

By the way, here are some of MOOSE's rough numbers:
https://www.letsgomoose.ca/wp-content/uploads/AnnexB_Moose-Project125-Summary_V7_2016-06-20_PDF.pdf

~$5-10 million in study funding
~$900 million in capital
~$200 million per year in operational costs.

Those are of course 2 years old and very very rough estimates.
Those numbers need to be broken down further like how many trains he needs to buy how many employees, cost of stations and so on. There is not enough detail whereas when VIA does somthing we actually know how much things are going to cost.

Anonther thing what were to happen if VIA does decide to electrify their rail service? Will MOOSE move to adapt and go with the same type of trains even though thats much more expensive. Potvin has not provided enough information and those costs in Capital and operation are lowball estimates not realistic since many of the tracks will need to be upgraded or added so they dont conflict with any other rail company.

I want to see a full budget including balance sheet, income statemant and cash flow statement that is fully audited. So where are these detailed numbers? I'm still waiting for them as are many others.

And yes what you showed me is 2 years old so that should tell you something. Credible companies always are up do date on thier financial numbers.
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  #2008  
Old Posted Dec 8, 2018, 11:19 PM
OCCheetos OCCheetos is offline
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Originally Posted by OtrainUser View Post
Those numbers need to be broken down further like how many trains he needs to buy how many employees, cost of stations and so on. There is not enough detail whereas when VIA does somthing we actually know how much things are going to cost.

Anonther thing what were to happen if VIA does decide to electrify their rail service? Will MOOSE move to adapt and go with the same type of trains even though thats much more expensive. Potvin has not provided enough information and those costs in Capital and operation are lowball estimates not realistic since many of the tracks will need to be upgraded or added so they dont conflict with any other rail company.

I want to see a full budget including balance sheet, income statemant and cash flow statement that is fully audited. So where are these detailed numbers? I'm still waiting for them as are many others.

And yes what you showed me is 2 years old so that should tell you something. Credible companies always are up do date on thier financial numbers.
Perhaps a better question to ask would be what MOOSE plans to do with $5 million in their proposed feasibility study. The other numbers you're asking for would come from that study after all.

Whether VIA decides to electrify straight away has no impact on what MOOSE ends up doing. If VIA went all electric MOOSE would still run non-electric trains on the same tracks.

You know these estimates include the track upgrades required for sharing, right? (Except maybe for the Trillium Line corridor. Still waiting for a response from Potvin on that particular case.)
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  #2009  
Old Posted Dec 8, 2018, 11:24 PM
OtrainUser OtrainUser is offline
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Originally Posted by OCCheetos View Post
Perhaps a better question to ask would be what MOOSE plans to do with $5 million in their proposed feasibility study. The other numbers you're asking for would come from that study after all.

Whether VIA decides to electrify straight away has no impact on what MOOSE ends up doing. If VIA went all electric MOOSE would still run non-electric trains on the same tracks.

You know these estimates include the track upgrades required for sharing, right? (Except maybe for the Trillium Line corridor. Still waiting for a response from Potvin on that particular case.)
We have already discussed how his trains would not be compatible with an elctrified line so no he would have to do a rethink if VIA ever does electrify.

More details are needed, just throwing out numbers are not going to convince responsible people which obviously explains why he hasn't gotten anything done yet.
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  #2010  
Old Posted Dec 8, 2018, 11:45 PM
OCCheetos OCCheetos is offline
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Originally Posted by OtrainUser View Post
We have already discussed how his trains would not be compatible with an elctrified line so no he would have to do a rethink if VIA ever does electrify.
Huh? When was that discussed?

I did a quick search and found some posts discussing the electrification of the Trillium Line corridor using an identical catenary setup as on the Confederation Line, but that's not even close to the same set up that would be used for VIA...

There's no reason that MOOSE would become incompatible with VIA's trains if they opted for electrification.
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  #2011  
Old Posted Dec 8, 2018, 11:53 PM
OtrainUser OtrainUser is offline
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Originally Posted by OCCheetos View Post
Huh? When was that discussed?

I did a quick search and found some posts discussing the electrification of the Trillium Line corridor using an identical catenary setup as on the Confederation Line, but that's not even close to the same set up that would be used for VIA...

There's no reason that MOOSE would become incompatible with VIA's trains if they opted for electrification.

Are you sure about the VIA setup? Another thing i found.

https://otc-cta.gc.ca/eng/publication/guide-certificates-fitness

It says in there they make their decisions on a certificate of fitness in 120 days after its been applied. Now given that MOOSE had already applied 2 years ago for one, it's safe to assume thier application for one was rejected.
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  #2012  
Old Posted Dec 9, 2018, 12:33 AM
OCCheetos OCCheetos is offline
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Originally Posted by OtrainUser View Post
Are you sure about the VIA setup?
Assuming VIA electrifies the entire corridor, they would likely need to design the OCS to have enough clearance for stacked container freight that travels along some of VIA's routes (similar to what GO is doing). If that is the case, then there will be no conflicts between MOOSE's proposed rolling stock and VIA's proposed electrified fleet.


Quote:
Another thing i found.

https://otc-cta.gc.ca/eng/publication/guide-certificates-fitness

It says in there they make their decisions on a certificate of fitness in 120 days after its been applied. Now given that MOOSE had already applied 2 years ago for one, it's safe to assume thier application for one was rejected.
https://www.facebook.com/MooseRail/posts/1848080985442774

They recently stated they'd be reapplying in the new year.
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  #2013  
Old Posted Dec 9, 2018, 12:40 AM
OtrainUser OtrainUser is offline
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Originally Posted by OCCheetos View Post
Assuming VIA electrifies the entire corridor, they would likely need to design the OCS to have enough clearance for stacked container freight that travels along some of VIA's routes (similar to what GO is doing). If that is the case, then there will be no conflicts between MOOSE's proposed rolling stock and VIA's proposed electrified fleet.



https://www.facebook.com/MooseRail/posts/1848080985442774

They recently stated they'd be reapplying in the new year.
Where is the statement I can't find it anywhere at the link you posted
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  #2014  
Old Posted Dec 9, 2018, 12:45 AM
OCCheetos OCCheetos is offline
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Originally Posted by OtrainUser View Post
Where is the statement I can't find it anywhere at the link you posted
In their latest brochure it says
Quote:
Moose will finalize insurance arrangements and
apply to the Canadian Transportation Agency in
January 2019 for a “Certificate of Fitness.
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  #2015  
Old Posted Dec 9, 2018, 12:57 AM
OtrainUser OtrainUser is offline
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Originally Posted by OCCheetos View Post
In their latest brochure it says
Looks like he has reposted from 2016 because iv'e seen that timeline before and so far nothing.

As for one thing that caught my eye is he expects to spend 500 million for railway upgrade. Well for one thing alot of those tracks need alot of upgrading if you want to use it for commuter service and like another poster has said, it's going to be at least 1 billion for that. I'm not surprised he is lowballing his costs, he wants to make it look like he can do it cheaply which he cannot.
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  #2016  
Old Posted Dec 9, 2018, 2:15 AM
Charles5 Charles5 is offline
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As several folks here have rightly pointed out, MOOSE's financial numbers haven't changed at all for many years. They simply keep regurgitating the same information and estimates over and over again.

I just wanted to point out that they have defined their estimates as "Class D" estimates in their brochure (Annex B). This simply means that they are within an order of magnitude.

Joseph Potvin himself in earlier posts confirms that they are only Class D, or even Class E (his words, I don't know if there is actually a definition of Class E estimates). As he states in one post, "Until rather sophisticated system modeling is completed, no precision in estimation is possible." (link)

In other words, there are no real facts behind the figures, and Joseph Potvin will continue to evade questions about any numbers they've presented on the basis that they can't be more precise until they complete the feasibility study.
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  #2017  
Old Posted Dec 9, 2018, 1:26 PM
acottawa acottawa is offline
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This is why I don’t believe “true believer” theory for Moose’s ongoing existence. There has been almost no interest in improving or even updating the plan or the public documents. Some things such as geotechnical studies need a lot of money, but a lot of it could be done with open source material and a basic knowledge of Excel.
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  #2018  
Old Posted Dec 9, 2018, 4:15 PM
Charles5 Charles5 is offline
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Originally Posted by acottawa View Post
This is why I don’t believe “true believer” theory for Moose’s ongoing existence. There has been almost no interest in improving or even updating the plan or the public documents. Some things such as geotechnical studies need a lot of money, but a lot of it could be done with open source material and a basic knowledge of Excel.
I concur. There is a lot that can be done. In fact, if you were to read through all the posts on this forum and on Urban Toronto, you will see that many folks have used sources such as Stats Can census data, traffic studies, etc. to analyze and debate the issue. If they can do it then so could MOOSE.

I would love to see MOOSE put their own money where their mouth is. They keep bringing up this $500K number but that is 'in-kind' funding. In other words, that is the monetary value they've assigned to the work that they've done over the years. As I've previously stated, that probably comes down to about 4 person years of work spread between 10 corporate entities over 8 years. That's actually not a lot time invested by people who claim to be passionate about this issue.

I'm sure between all the MOOSE consortium members they could put up a sufficient amount of collateral in order to get the funding for a reasonable feasibility study. (They do claim to be a group of successful business people.) However they have chosen not to take any real financial risk themselves while at the same time seeking out about $1B from investors.
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  #2019  
Old Posted Dec 9, 2018, 4:31 PM
JohnnyRenton JohnnyRenton is offline
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Originally Posted by acottawa View Post
This is why I don’t believe “true believer” theory for Moose’s ongoing existence. There has been almost no interest in improving or even updating the plan or the public documents. Some things such as geotechnical studies need a lot of money, but a lot of it could be done with open source material and a basic knowledge of Excel.
It is one of many catch 22's that Moose is in. They need money to do a proper feasibility study so that the true costs can be calculated, and they can have a solid plan to pursue investors with. But they need some investors right out of the gate in order to get that study done. It feels like they have created a plan with numbers that are not so low that people don't think he doesn't know what he is doing, but not so high that it scares of potential investors by pushing a multi-billion dollar plan from the get go.

At this point I feel like one of five things will happen with this project (the list is in order of how likely I think the outcome is, from most likely, to least).
-One, no investors come to the table to even get the feasibility study done and once Moose runs out of money to pay for lawyers to pursue cases that keep their name in the paper, they just fade away.
-Two, the feasibility study gets funded, Potvin takes a million for his time, and when it comes out with more realistic numbers Moose says there is some nonsense reason they can't continue, and it shuts down.
-Three, it does continue after a feasibility study is done, but languishes after years of being unable to find investor support, and slowly fades away.
-Four, after the feasibility study there is a bait and switch. In order to keep the plan at their original budget, they drop lines, or change some key aspects of the project so that it is quite a bit different then originally planned. This likely leads to investors and local councils dropping support as it is ultimately not what they signed up for.
-Five, the plan goes ahead, but faces a critical battle with the City of Ottawa, and Gatineau. The use of the Trillium, and the placement of stations on, in particular, the VIA lines, cause the city to enter the commuter rail game/planning earlier than anticipated.

Even if it does get to scenario 5, the chances it gets through that unscathed are small. And while the NCR doesn't have any formal plans for commuter rail, there are no doubt people who are thinking out a decade or two about what might be feasible, and beneficial to the region. Between the Trillium line and a modernized VIA rail line, there are some pretty large development opportunities for the city. I have actually often wondered if the reason why Ottawa has been a bit slow to put too much more money into the Trillium line, and make it an immediate priority, is because VIA has an interest in using that corridor as well for inter-city rail service into Gatineau and beyond. I have no proof that is actually the case, but, VIA has been making somewhat more ambitious plans as of late (see VIA HFR), and if the city thought VIA might be close to investing in an upgrade to the Trillium line corridor to accommodate inter-city rail as well, it might be hesitant to make too many large investments in it, until those details are better understood.

A little off this topic, but something I thought of this morning, is how many riders would be needed in order to make back Moose's self indicated $200 million/year operating budget, if the only model they used was fare box recovery. It is hard to say what the average ticket price would be, but let's say that it is around $12, each way. The bulk of the passengers will be Monday to Friday commuters, so let's say that accounts for 80% of the trips done on the system. So that means commuters need to cover $160 million of the operating budget. There are 260 weekdays in a year, and once you factor days commuters don't travel because of holidays or vacations or being sick, they are likely to travel 240 days out of the year (though it could be even lower than that as many of the commuters will have 3, 4, maybe even 5 weeks of holidays, plus work travel, etc). When you do the math on all that, you find that the system would need 27,777 daily commuters, paying an average of $12 each way, in order to cover 80% of the operating costs. If the average ticket price, each way, was $10, then that 2 dollar difference would result in the system needing 33,333 commuters per day.

Just for comparison, GO trains, which serve the Golden Horseshoe, not just the GTA, which has a population of 9.2 million, has an average daily ridership of 215,500 people. For Moose to be able to cover its costs just through fare recovery, it would have to be almost as good as GO at capturing the commuter market. While Moose serves rural towns and small cities, GO gets to capture its market from cities like Barrie, Hamilton, Oshawa, Kitchener-Waterloo, Burlington, etc. Moose would have to capture a large portion of its commuter base from with the City of Ottawa in order to have any chance of building a customer base, which is hard to do when it is hostile to working with the city. Given that Moose might be lucky to attract 5000 daily commuters, that means almost a substantial part of its operating costs will have to be funded by some other "Property powered" method, to the tune of at least $150 million per year.

Whether it's tomorrow, or next month, or a few years from now, Moose will end up dead in the water.
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  #2020  
Old Posted Dec 9, 2018, 4:37 PM
gunnar777 gunnar777 is offline
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I used to wonder why Ottawa had no regional rail system, and after reading like 95% of the posts on this thread, I can see why. Y'all hate rail.

Also, have any of you been to places like, I don't know, the entire Outaouais region, or anywhere too far to the west? I'm talking about places like Thurso, Arnprior, Wakefield. They're all symbols of economic loserdom, there's literally no work for those people to do, unless you're one of the 6 lucky ducks who works at The Black Sheep Inn. No one in the entire region can get into town without a car, but somehow, adding in a commuter train would send sprawl out of control? Has the road system not already done that? Oh wait, yeah it has.
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