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  #3201  
Old Posted Dec 4, 2018, 5:46 PM
makr3trkr makr3trkr is offline
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https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-c...r-fast-action-on-massey-tunnel-1.4930986

"A bridge with several lanes, perhaps three, with room to expand, is one possible solution, Harvie said, but ultimately he's not set on any one proposal."

So likely a 6 lane bridge expandable to 8. I think that's a good compromise given the political atmosphere. A bridge should not be a deliberate choke point.
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  #3202  
Old Posted Dec 4, 2018, 6:21 PM
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Originally Posted by makr3trkr View Post
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-c...r-fast-action-on-massey-tunnel-1.4930986

"A bridge with several lanes, perhaps three, with room to expand, is one possible solution, Harvie said, but ultimately he's not set on any one proposal."

So likely a 6 lane bridge expandable to 8. I think that's a good compromise given the political atmosphere. A bridge should not be a deliberate choke point.
So 6 lanes, 2 lanes dedicated to bus transit? That's barely any better than what is there now and doesn't account for traffic increase due to population and economic growth.

Expanding to 8 lanes is probably something that would never occur or if it did, it would happen many years after it's actually required and cost 10x as much then if they built it now.
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  #3203  
Old Posted Dec 4, 2018, 6:27 PM
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So 6 lanes, 2 lanes dedicated to bus transit? That's barely any better than what is there now and doesn't account for traffic increase due to population and economic growth.

Expanding to 8 lanes is probably something that would never occur or if it did, it would happen many years after it's actually required and cost 10x as much then if they built it now.
You, and your logic. You quit now, you here? There's no room for that round these parts.

Was surprised they didn't come out with a plan that reduced the amount of lanes we have now.
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  #3204  
Old Posted Dec 4, 2018, 6:33 PM
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Was surprised they didn't come out with a plan that reduced the amount of lanes we have now.
Hush, you. Don't give them the thought that someone out there has a "great" idea.
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  #3205  
Old Posted Dec 4, 2018, 7:01 PM
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NDP really shot themselves in the foot with their cancellation of tolls. It will make any giant bridge project a tougher sell without them.
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  #3206  
Old Posted Dec 4, 2018, 8:42 PM
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NDP really shot themselves in the foot with their cancellation of tolls. It will make any giant bridge project a tougher sell without them.
Anything to please the Surrey ridings.
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  #3207  
Old Posted Dec 4, 2018, 9:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by makr3trkr View Post
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-c...r-fast-action-on-massey-tunnel-1.4930986

"A bridge with several lanes, perhaps three, with room to expand, is one possible solution, Harvie said, but ultimately he's not set on any one proposal."

So likely a 6 lane bridge expandable to 8. I think that's a good compromise given the political atmosphere. A bridge should not be a deliberate choke point.
For a second, I thought that meant three lanes total - had to double check which mayor it was.
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  #3208  
Old Posted Dec 4, 2018, 10:40 PM
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Anything to please the Surrey ridings.
No, if anything it just shows that the NDP might be smarter than we think. They might have basically killed any new road infrastructure because of the new funding model that would be required under their non-toll mantra.

Think about it. How would one best go about killing something one abhors, in this case road and bridge networks? Take its food source away.
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  #3209  
Old Posted Dec 4, 2018, 11:56 PM
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The reason was that New Westminster didn't believe it could handle the traffic from a 6-lane, which was proposed at the time. Truthfully, creating induced demand in New West streets isn't exactly a great idea, I can understand the sentiment.

They had to compromise with a 4-land 'expandable'.


And really, only NOF mayors hate bridges. Mostly because they are more transit-oriented due to greater densities, unlike the suburban SOF.


Imagine what would happen when Surrey densifies. No highway expansions in Metro Van ever again.




I'll try to make an educated guess. https://buzzer.translink.ca/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/translinkhistory.pdf

"Several options for governance were presented during the first workshop. The GVRD ultimately reached the conclusion that it wanted to play the central role in regional transportation, and move toward a solution on a broad and strategic level, while finding a way to use existing tax sources to buy a place at the table. "

"The second major event was a decision by the provincial government to unilaterally “declassify” the responsibility of approximately 600 kilometres of provincial secondary
highways to municipalities. Many municipalities found themselves with the unexpected burden of maintaining these newly acquired roads. The GVRD pounced on the decision as an opportunity to negotiate a new governance and funding agreement for not only the transit system, but the roads as well. Today, Cameron points at the declassification as being a major reason why ultimately a transportation authority was created, instead of merely a transit authority."

Translink is technically a transportation authority, not a transit authority (even though it's 90% transit, it does own Golden Ears).

The Province gave control of much of the highway system to the municipalities, giving them more control over the highway system (who then prompted to declassify them- which is why 1A and 99A no longer exist- and why the Pautello expansion was originally a Translink Project.)

The idea was to make the transit and highway system work together, in a way that would 'address the multi-modal needs of the region'.

However, the GVRD (and Translink) are largely controlled by the mayors. Who disagree on pretty much everything, and end up constantly trying to compete with each other.

This is both a good, and bad thing- it spurs transit and development growth- but it results in a lot of...unintended consequences.

Vancouver and Surrey are the most powerful municipalities. The Pautello and Port Mann had the Liberals and Surrey as backers. The George Massey has Delta, Richmond, and...no one else, seemingly.

Is it a wonder why it's dead in the water? We either have to wait until the Liberals come back into power, or the NDP is convinced enough to accept the expansion.

The mayors do not decide solely on transportation expansions. In the end, the province still owns Hwy 99. However, they do have a large amount of influence-more than most other cities.

The biggest issue is that the NDP just doesn't care. I mean, Richmond, Delta, and even S. Surrey were generally pretty strongly Liberal in the last election, or were either-or districts.

https://www.macleans.ca/politics/bc-election-live-election-results-map/


The anti-highway NOF generally wins out due to higher population. Only Surrey really has the population to compete with the NOF. If the SOF controlled Metro Van, there would probably have been the (admittedly not well-thought-out) NFPR, more road expansions, and generally more sprawl.

It's a mixed bag. However, this is probably the main reason why so many SOF people feel SOF is being screwed over by NOF. Because they kind of are, due to demographics.




He isn't really against expending the crossing, he just wants it done by twinning for some reason.
For the Pattullo 6 lanes is the better option because each shoulder lane would have been an add drop lane. At the very least it should be opened with 5 lanes, 3 south 2 north. The 3rd south bound lane would continue from the Columbia Street West to Pattullo Bridge South on ramp and exit via the Pattullo Bridge South to SFPR West direct ramp.

That way you are not really adding any new lanes into New West and you won’t have what will obviously be a terrible merge point / choke point on the bridge.


As for all that about the Mayors and province, I understand the point of why things are what they are now, but it is still a broken system and I would argue that given its linkage between the border, airport, ferry terminal, Delta Port, etc... the highway 99 / GMB project goes far beyond the needs and concerns of the local mayors and even the province, unlike the Pattullo which really is a local Metro-Vancouver issue. (hence I wish the feds were to pay their share as well regarding the GMB).

Agree that removing the tolls was a terrible idea. Was against that from the start. Kind of a bizarre ideology, “We are largely against highway expansion but gosh darn it we are going to ensure that the existing highways and bridges are bursting at the seams!” The tolls really did reduce needless trips and instead of removing them completely they could have been re-structured (a year end rebate system for lower income earners, varied pricing throughout the day, etc...)

As for the news recently, we all knew that the 10 lane bridge is dead.

We can only hope that an 8 lane bridge structure is chosen, considering that the counter flow is already 3 lanes in a direction and the need for a rapid bus lane = 4 lanes a direction = just fine / wise compromise. It would also likely salvage all the work that has already been done instead of pissing it all away.

The twin tunnel idea is the worst, for all the reasons I have listed before (loss of ALR, need to eventually replace existing tunnel anyways, the fudged mess of cobbled interchanges it would create, the experience for pedestrians and cyclists, still no dangerous goods can be shipped, the narrow lane widths of the existing tunnel, etc...)

I really really hope at least some sensibility is kept in this project.
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  #3210  
Old Posted Dec 5, 2018, 1:26 AM
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Something I've not noticed raised here is that a bridge would facilitate a bike or pedestrian crossing, something that just cannot be done with the tunnel.

I'm not sure if there are actually any destinations before or after the tunnel, but perhaps making the area a local crossing (rather than an inter-city chokepoint) might encourage development on and around the waterway?

It's probably zoned for farming right now anyway (ALR?), but in the long-term future, making an area accessible by foot is always a win.
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  #3211  
Old Posted Dec 5, 2018, 1:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djh View Post
Something I've not noticed raised here is that a bridge would facilitate a bike or pedestrian crossing, something that just cannot be done with the tunnel.

I'm not sure if there are actually any destinations before or after the tunnel, but perhaps making the area a local crossing (rather than an inter-city chokepoint) might encourage development on and around the waterway?

It's probably zoned for farming right now anyway (ALR?), but in the long-term future, making an area accessible by foot is always a win.
Not raised?

I have mentioned it in every one of my posts against the twin tunnel idea. Even the post I made above yours! (And a page or two back).

Sometimes I wonder why I bother with this forum at all anymore seeing how it seems no one reads my posts.
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  #3212  
Old Posted Dec 5, 2018, 1:36 AM
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so when they say 3 lanes, does that mean 2+1 HOV? or 3+1 HOV?

because if it means 2 general, 1 HOV, that would be a decrease from todays rush hour 3 general purpose...
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  #3213  
Old Posted Dec 5, 2018, 3:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Metro-One View Post
Not raised?

I have mentioned it in every one of my posts against the twin tunnel idea. Even the post I made above yours! (And a page or two back).

Sometimes I wonder why I bother with this forum at all anymore seeing how it seems no one reads my posts.
I've read your posts regarding the twin tunnel idea, I just don't respond because I'll probably add more fuel to the fire.

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so when they say 3 lanes, does that mean 2+1 HOV? or 3+1 HOV?

because if it means 2 general, 1 HOV, that would be a decrease from todays rush hour 3 general purpose...
The line is ambiguous regarding the number of lanes. God forbid they'll do the Patullo method, where they replace an aging 4-lane crossing to the newer "state-of-the-art" 4-lane bridge.
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  #3214  
Old Posted Dec 5, 2018, 3:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Metro-One View Post
Not raised?

I have mentioned it in every one of my posts against the twin tunnel idea. Even the post I made above yours! (And a page or two back).

Sometimes I wonder why I bother with this forum at all anymore seeing how it seems no one reads my posts.
I read. Might not post very often, but I read. One problem with this forum is that the posts can become so big that stuff gets lost with time and arguments get driven in circles.
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  #3215  
Old Posted Dec 5, 2018, 7:13 AM
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Originally Posted by djh View Post
Something I've not noticed raised here is that a bridge would facilitate a bike or pedestrian crossing, something that just cannot be done with the tunnel.

I'm not sure if there are actually any destinations before or after the tunnel, but perhaps making the area a local crossing (rather than an inter-city chokepoint) might encourage development on and around the waterway?

It's probably zoned for farming right now anyway (ALR?), but in the long-term future, making an area accessible by foot is always a win.
>Assuming anyone actually would WANT to commute by bike or walk on the George Massey Bridge.

It would make for some nice exercise for the residents of Ladner, though. Go up and down the bridge, and that's your exercise for the day. 1 lap, 2 laps if you feel ambitious. That's what I did on the Golden Ears. And yes, the air quality is a problem I deal with...

It'd provide us with excess room for future road expansions, but don't tell anyone that. Losing the pedestrian capability on a bridge here isn't a big deal.

Future ALR use here is almost certainly going to be industrial. It makes no sense to expand residential facilities next to a busy bridge, and next to Deltaport.

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Originally Posted by VancouverOfTheFuture View Post
so when they say 3 lanes, does that mean 2+1 HOV? or 3+1 HOV?

because if it means 2 general, 1 HOV, that would be a decrease from todays rush hour 3 general purpose...
Would it? Wouldn't they keep the reversible lanes, then? So 3 lanes general purpose, one HOV rush hour?

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Originally Posted by Firebrand View Post
The line is ambiguous regarding the number of lanes. God forbid they'll do the Patullo method, where they replace an aging 4-lane crossing to the newer "state-of-the-art" 4-lane bridge.
Hey, the new 4-lane on the Pautello is still an improvement in every sense of the word. Wider Lanes permitting faster speeds, good pedestrian/cycling connections to New West, less collisions, a direct connection from the SFPR...
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  #3216  
Old Posted Dec 5, 2018, 7:47 AM
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Or call up the supplier of the Alex Fraser Bridge's new zipper moveable barrier, and double the order. Value engineer a seven-lane bridge, and retain the "heritage value" counterflow system at the crossing, that we've all grown to love and adore over the years of our lives (literally for some) stuck in traffic waiting to cross the tunnel.

Seems the BC way to do things
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  #3217  
Old Posted Dec 5, 2018, 1:17 PM
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Hey, the new 4-lane on the Pautello is still an improvement in every sense of the word. Wider Lanes permitting faster speeds, good pedestrian/cycling connections to New West, less collisions, a direct connection from the SFPR...
The Surrey connection will be no different compared to its current state, other than the southbound off ramp. You still have to take Scott Rd to take the northbound side. They did a poor job redoing the Surrey side.
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  #3218  
Old Posted Dec 5, 2018, 1:45 PM
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The Surrey connection will be no different compared to its current state, other than the southbound off ramp. You still have to take Scott Rd to take the northbound side. They did a poor job redoing the Surrey side.
This is because they rejected the full build out, which did involve free flow movements in all (or at least all primary) movements between the new New Pattullo and Scott Road.

I could have been worse though, you should have seen the other two options being considered. One was completely bare bones with no rebuilding of the connections on either side...
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  #3219  
Old Posted Dec 5, 2018, 1:54 PM
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Originally Posted by fredinno View Post
>Assuming anyone actually would WANT to commute by bike or walk on the George Massey Bridge.

It would make for some nice exercise for the residents of Ladner, though. Go up and down the bridge, and that's your exercise for the day. 1 lap, 2 laps if you feel ambitious. That's what I did on the Golden Ears. And yes, the air quality is a problem I deal with...

It'd provide us with excess room for future road expansions, but don't tell anyone that. Losing the pedestrian capability on a bridge here isn't a big deal.

Future ALR use here is almost certainly going to be industrial. It makes no sense to expand residential facilities next to a busy bridge, and next to Deltaport.



Would it? Wouldn't they keep the reversible lanes, then? So 3 lanes general purpose, one HOV rush hour?



Hey, the new 4-lane on the Pautello is still an improvement in every sense of the word. Wider Lanes permitting faster speeds, good pedestrian/cycling connections to New West, less collisions, a direct connection from the SFPR...

First point about bakes: Actually, it is quite a popular route in the summer, especially those biking too the ferry (done it myself). Currently there is actually a crappy shuttle service that picks you up at one side of the tunnel and takes you to the other. It sucks. It is not very big (sucks in a group waiting for a few shuttles to cross to be together) and it can take a long time in traffic. That, or you can take one of the local buses which can only fit two bikes on the front... So yeah, the current system is a pain for bikes.

Second point, the use of a counter lane on the new bridge: First, counter flow lanes are almost always cheap jerry rigged solutions for aging overcrowded structures. They should never be part of a new build. The few systems that are robust / built with new structures are very hefty (often longer distance) counter flow systems that often involve their own elevated structures or at the minimum are separated from traffic via a permanent barrier system. Second, and this is the most important, with a middle counter flow lane we cannot have a proper rapid bus / transit system on the highway since they always operate within the centre of the corridor. Look at the revamped #1 for an example. Impossible to have a simple counter flow lane there because it would destroy the HOV / Bus lane system.

This is the stuff that I hope people think about (especially those with power) before coming up with these ideas.
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  #3220  
Old Posted Dec 5, 2018, 1:57 PM
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I've read your posts regarding the twin tunnel idea, I just don't respond because I'll probably add more fuel to the fire.
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I read. Might not post very often, but I read. One problem with this forum is that the posts can become so big that stuff gets lost with time and arguments get driven in circles.
I will admit I was getting a little dramatic, haha. But it does get frustrating sometimes.

Especially with this project, because the 8 lane bridge is so obviously the only appropriate choice for all the factors involved (general traffic flow, industrial needs, rapid bus, earthquake safety, ALR, bikes and pedestrians, building it once, etc...).
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