LeBreton Flats 2.0 (RendezVous LeBreton) | Cancelled

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

It's ironic that people would sit for a few hours to watch and admire a bunch of guys physically exert themselves running back and forth a field or skating around a patch of ice, but then complain about having to walk a couple of hundred metres to get there Yay, "sports!"

Eh, no different than people that loop around looking for parking spots in front of their gym, or people that do the same before walking laps around Costco.

[Horus]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

The arena provides the biggest ridership spikes. If we expect the majority of those going to the arena to use transit, it needs to be convenient. Do you think the Lansdowne model would have worked if the closest transit stop was 5 blocks away?

That's just it. They're spikes and they're off typical peak hours so there is already capacity in the system to handle it. Why would the city want to invest in an LRT station that is going to be mostly idle through the day?

Bear in mind that Lansdowne also has 2 transportation outlets at opposite sides of the complex. Transit is on the Bank St side, but the Park n' Ride bus system runs out of the East entrance. You're not trying to funnel 24000 people out of one end of the property. There's some way for the crowd to disperse and take the transportation option that suits them best. Placing the arena at LeBreton as was planned would have the same effect.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by Horus

That's just it. They're spikes and they're off typical peak hours so there is already capacity in the system to handle it. Why would the city want to invest in an LRT station that is going to be mostly idle through the day?

Bear in mind that Lansdowne also has 2 transportation outlets at opposite sides of the complex. Transit is on the Bank St side, but the Park n' Ride bus system runs out of the East entrance. You're not trying to funnel 24000 people out of one end of the property. There's some way for the crowd to disperse and take the transportation option that suits them best. Placing the arena at LeBreton as was planned would have the same effect.

Yes, but both are right next to the stadium. My comment was made because there was the suggestion that if a subway was built on Bank Street, there would be no station at Lansdowne.

I know how Lansdowne works. I have been a transit using season ticket holder since 2014 and as I was with the previous iterations of football, when we drove to the stadium. The reason why we switched to transit was that the cost was included in our tickets and because the transit service was convenient. If it was not convenient, we would have continued to drive to our favoured parking location.

[J.OT13]

If we were to have a Bank Street subway, I would expect a Lansdowne Station built to handle the high volumes of fans coming in and out for games and events. That's not what we have at LeBreton; through they had Bluesfest in mind for Pimisi, an 18,000 seat arena with 180 events per year will have larger, more frequent crowds than what either station can handle.

Also worth noting that the density at LeBreton will be much denser than Bank in the Glebe or Old Ottawa South, so it will be more important to have the community close to transit then the venue.

One last point, the average ridership of transit stations serving major sports venues is generally not that high. Look at Lucien-L'Allier in Montreal, MacEwan in Edmonton, Victoria Park/Stampede in Calgary. Union in Toronto and Stadium-Chinatown in Vancouver have high ridership due to the dense developments around. It's important to have these sports venues near transit stations to handle the crowds, but they will not be the main ridership generators for those stations.

[HighwayStar]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

.
.
As I said, we are trying to manipulate public behaviour by trying to filter people and move them to more than one station. People will quickly learn the best way out and the vast majority will head to the same station. Also, the public didn't like the long walks at CTC during the dead of winter so a sheltered walkway was provided. Now we expect people to make a similar walk without shelter, and not to a private vehicle but to a transit station that may not clear quickly.

That sheltered walkway benefits the precious few people who are able to park near it. On the days where applicable, the VAST majority of other people are trudging though windy, snowy, slushy car wheel tracks, and standing and waiting to cross a very busy roadway.

In theory, the walk at LeBreton would involve passing (hopefully) a few lively bars/eateries, on a groomed sidewalk which is at least somewhat sheltered from the elements... not perfect, but certainly a lot more palatable than the parking lot slog at CTC.

[SkeggsEggs]

They are/were planning to cover the LRT, why not also leave space for a covered pedestrian walkway that spits people out in the plaza infront of the arena?

The people that aren't afraid of the cold can walk down the aqueduct by the stores, and the people that are can walk in the covered tunnel.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

If we were to have a Bank Street subway, I would expect a Lansdowne Station built to handle the high volumes of fans coming in and out for games and events. That's not what we have at LeBreton; through they had Bluesfest in mind for Pimisi, an 18,000 seat arena with 180 events per year will have larger, more frequent crowds than what either station can handle.

Also worth noting that the density at LeBreton will be much denser than Bank in the Glebe or Old Ottawa South, so it will be more important to have the community close to transit then the venue.

One last point, the average ridership of transit stations serving major sports venues is generally not that high. Look at Lucien-L'Allier in Montreal, MacEwan in Edmonton, Victoria Park/Stampede in Calgary. Union in Toronto and Stadium-Chinatown in Vancouver have high ridership due to the dense developments around. It's important to have these sports venues near transit stations to handle the crowds, but they will not be the main ridership generators for those stations.

Lansdowne has achieved over 50% modal share and this will be a requirement for an arena on Lebreton Flats. Making transit access even somewhat inconvenient makes this unlikely to be achieved.

Also, there are still two stations within walking distance of Lebreton Flats. This should work well for most living there regardless of the location of the arena.

Frankly, if the arena were to be moved, it should be closer to Bayview station so that both LRT routes are easily accessible. With other development already planned on adjacent property, this should still work well for those living in the area. Bayview should have more than condos and apartments at this key transfer station.

In my opinion, our LRT stations should be surrounded with commercial and public development with high density residential just beyond that. This will generate the most traffic at each station. For example, immediately next to a station should be shopping, libraries, communities centres, with offices above and with good pedestrian access, on the next block beyond, should be high rise apartments and condos.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by SkeggsEggs

They are/were planning to cover the LRT, why not also leave space for a covered pedestrian walkway that spits people out in the plaza infront of the arena?

The people that aren't afraid of the cold can walk down the aqueduct by the stores, and the people that are can walk in the covered tunnel.

I have a feeling that was part of the plan. Too bad I can't find the planning rational.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

As I said, we are trying to manipulate public behaviour by trying to filter people and move them to more than one station. People will quickly learn the best way out and the vast majority will head to the same station. Also, the public didn't like the long walks at CTC during the dead of winter so a sheltered walkway was provided. Now we expect people to make a similar walk without shelter, and not to a private vehicle but to a transit station that may not clear quickly.

It depends what the alternatives are. There will likely be much less parking at LeBreton than at the CTC and due to its location it will likely be more expensive than either Landsdown or the CTC. If that is combined with free transit (with a ticket) on trains capable of carying large numbers of people, transit will be a very attractive option.

It is true that there is lots of parking further away, but we are talking over a km, so walk of a few hundred meters to a station will seem short. As for the on site parking, some will choose to use it regardless of the cost, but I don't think there is much that can be done about that.

Originally Posted by HighwayStar

That sheltered walkway benefits the precious few people who are able to park near it. On the days where applicable, the VAST majority of other people are trudging though windy, snowy, slushy car wheel tracks, and standing and waiting to cross a very busy roadway.

In theory, the walk at LeBreton would involve passing (hopefully) a few lively bars/eateries, on a groomed sidewalk which is at least somewhat sheltered from the elements... not perfect, but certainly a lot more palatable than the parking lot slog at CTC.

Exactly. The new buildings in LeBreton will provide much more shelter than the massive open parking lot at the CTC.

Originally Posted by SkeggsEggs

They are/were planning to cover the LRT, why not also leave space for a covered pedestrian walkway that spits people out in the plaza infront of the arena?

The people that aren't afraid of the cold can walk down the aqueduct by the stores, and the people that are can walk in the covered tunnel.

That was my thinking as well. It won't help with access to Bayview though.

[corynv]

Even if the arena is right in the middle of the two stations. Couldn't there also be some bus shuttles between the arena and the two stations? Have it be something like Bayview>Arena>Pisimi and Pisimi>Arena>Bayview. And have an area (or even two, one on each side of the arena) for buses to drop and pick up people for the event. Maybe not every single night, just on nights with shit weather (freezing rain, near blizzards, extreme cold, etc)

[acottawa]

Or have some sort of covered connector. The skywalk was important in the early days of the skydome before the area filled out.

[Kitchissippi]

It's roughly 250 metres from the lower aqueduct entrance of Pimisi to the arena site. It's dead flat, and if the Preston extension is done like the Booth street bridge, completely car-free, along a hopefully pleasant promenade along the aqueduct. In comparison, it's about the same distance between Bayview and its eastbound bus transfer stop, and it's shorter than the distance between Parliament station and Parliament Hill. The Eiffel Tower, arguably one of Paris' most visited sites, is three times that distance to the nearest metro stop.

A lot of covered walkways tend to be either dingy or sterile, or have security issues off hours, potentially becoming a hangout for vagrants.

[rocketphish]

Is LeBreton Flats really a housing hotbed waiting to happen?

Kelly Egan, Ottawa Citizen
Updated: December 1, 2018

At the heart of this LeBreton Flats debate — this one and those that began in Biblical times — is the idea that people are dying to live there.

Possibly, this is a large slice of magical thinking. Our latest effort, a stillbirth plan to build 4,400 housing units over 20 or so years, is only the latest in a string of concepts that adhere, religiously, to the idea that we need to replace an old neighbourhood with a new neighbourhood.

The federal government razed a community that was home to 2,800 people in the 1960s — mustn’t we now return hundreds, even thousands of souls, to the 50-acre plot of tumbleweed?

Well, there is no vibrancy to any place these days without the pitter-patter of jousting yoga-mat warriors, high on caffeine, hurrying to their happy place. So be it. It’s a weird world. But what does history tell us about LeBreton’s appeal, for millennials or their downsizing parents?

Here is one fact alone that should sober the debate, and worry those named Melnyk or Ruddy: Claridge Homes began pre-selling condos on the eastern end of LeBreton Flats in 2005 — it had 12 signups on the first night — and 13 years later, yes 13 years, that first phase is still not sold out, about 500 units in total being built.

And to back up slightly further: The National Capital Commission decided in 2004 it would sell 10 acres of land on LeBreton’s eastern tip, cut off at Booth Street. Then-chairman Marcel Beaudry, rest his soul, called it the most desirable piece of undeveloped land in Canada, one that would attract national, if not international, interest.

Initially, 12 companies expressed interest, then only six. In the end there were three bidders, including Minto, and a Montreal concern. And then there was only Claridge, which acquired the land for $8 million, and began to build a set of condos that went on to be mercilessly maligned, unfairly in my opinion.

But the point remains: They didn’t sell like hotcakes, though these were pre-LRT days. (These early “pioneers” may soon look like geniuses as they now live within a stone’s throw of soon-to-opened Pimisi station.)

“Ah, I would say sales were OK,” said Claridge vice-president Neil Malhotra, when asked this week about the LeBreton rollout. “It went as well as most other projects.” He reminds us that this first phase has roots to a plan devised in the 1980s, before LRT was conceived, and before the anchor uses of the remaining 50 acres on LeBreton were sorted out.

LeBreton, he points out correctly, never had a proper transit-centric “visioning exercise,” which is another way of saying we still aren’t settled on where an arena would go: connected to one station, mid-way between the two, or riverside, where patrons would first walk by an enticing strip of bars, restaurants and stores.

All of which to say that, in 2018, Claridge is taking a different approach to its undeveloped portion of the 2004 sale — higher and denser. It is now planning five towers of various heights (from 25 to 45 storeys) for a total of 1,950 units. And this across from the main LeBreton site, where there are to be 4,400 units, in close proximity to 900 Albert, the Trinity Development-involved project with 1,300 units in three towers.

It should probably be thrown into the mix that Claridge is planning three of its own highrises near the Lyon Street LRT station, with 566 more units, while currently building Ottawa’s highest residential tower, the Icon, at Carling and Preston, at 45 floors — both projects within three kilometres of the Flats.

Nor is this an exhaustive list of projects in the pipeline. So, an obvious question: Are we so intoxicated by the unproven appeal of train transit that we’ve drunkenly overplayed the housing market?

Ottawa, the experts tell us, is a steady, slow-growth market where young families still love the suburbs. It is not Fort McMurray in an oil boom.

I asked Malhotra (not in these exact words, mind) whether you need to do more than say “LeBreton Flats, Swanky Sens Lofts by the River” to sell that much housing.

“Listen,” he said. “Nothing’s that easy. Having done this for 20 years, it’s never that easy.”

OK. So we ask: Are we spending too much time talking about “how much” housing, how that housing must cash-fuel the showcase pieces, and not enough time talking about what public realm uses we really want, in ways the market can bear?

But begin with what we know: People are not dying to live on LeBreton Flats, at least not yet.

To contact Kelly Egan, please call 613-726-5896 or email [email protected]
Twitter.com/kellyegancolumn

https://ottawacitizen.com/news/local...ting-to-happen

[pattherat]

Hmmm,

This article has some massively misleading statements. One of which:

“Claridge Homes began pre-selling condos on the eastern end of LeBreton Flats in 2005 — it had 12 signups on the first night — and 13 years later, yes 13 years, that first phase is still not sold out, about 500 units in total being built.”

Phase 1 and 2 have been sold out for years. Phase 3 on the other hand which only completed fully in late 2015 is not.

Edit: That is not to say other areas are not correct in their cautious optimism. People have to remember that a smaller sample of people chomping at the bit to buy in LF in prior years likely has many contributing factors. Not the least of which - that until the rest of LF is developed those first towers are to some degree ‘islands’ of development with few amenities at their close doorstep.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by pattherat

Hmmm,

This article has some massively misleading statements. One of which:

“Claridge Homes began pre-selling condos on the eastern end of LeBreton Flats in 2005 — it had 12 signups on the first night — and 13 years later, yes 13 years, that first phase is still not sold out, about 500 units in total being built.”

Phase 1 and 2 have been sold out for years. Phase 3 on the other hand which only completed fully in late 2015 is not.

I don’t think “phase” in this case means building, if refers to the first three building set of its development.

[rocketphish]

Originally Posted by pattherat

Hmmm,

This article has some massively misleading statements. One of which:

“Claridge Homes began pre-selling condos on the eastern end of LeBreton Flats in 2005 — it had 12 signups on the first night — and 13 years later, yes 13 years, that first phase is still not sold out, about 500 units in total being built.”

Phase 1 and 2 have been sold out for years. Phase 3 on the other hand which only completed fully in late 2015 is not.

Edit: That is not to say other areas are not correct in their cautious optimism. People have to remember that a smaller sample of people chomping at the bit to buy in LF in prior years likely has many contributing factors. Not the least of which - that until the rest of LF is developed those first towers are to some degree ‘islands’ of development with few amenities at their close doorstep.

Welcome to the forum!

[pattherat]

Originally Posted by rocketphish

Welcome to the forum!

Thanks!

[ars]

DEVCORE put out a press release regarding Lebreton:

DCDLS Group Announces Its Commitment to Move Forward on LeBreton Flats Effective Immediately

OTTAWA, Dec. 02, 2018 (GLOBE NEWSWIRE) -- The founding partner of the DCDLS Group (“DCDLS”) announced today that they are ready to assume the responsibility of the re- development of LeBreton Flats effective January 24, 2019 upon the official dissolution of the RendezVous LeBreton/NCC negotiations, if not sooner.

“Our team has the expertise, experience and the financial resources that are necessary to deliver a World Class Project on behalf of the citizens of Ottawa and all Canadians, working together with the National Capital Commission (“NCC”), and the City of Ottawa,” said Jean- Pierre Poulin, President of DEVCORE Group.

“We seek to celebrate the National Capital Region and Canada, and our objective remains to deliver a public development on LeBreton Flats that every Canadian can truly be proud of. Ottawan’s deserve better and so do Canadians”

“We are confident that our vision, tempered by the recent work of the NCC and the City will be embraced by all. With respect to hockey, the National Winter Sport of Canada, we will still include a portion of land adjacent to the LRT station reserved for the exclusive construction of an NHL arena. We do not believe Ottawa or Canada should be held hostage one day longer,” said Mr. Poulin.

DCDLS reached out to the NCC last week to acknowledge and confirm our status and involvement and we await their timely response.

Jean-Pierre (JP) Poulin
President DEVCORE Group

If everything falls into place with DEVCORE, we may not have to wait too long for development at Lebreton to start up, especially since it looks like the NCC has completed a lot of the required paperwork and due diligence already for the RVL project.

[acottawa]

Good. They should also publish their billion dollar letter of credit. Just to be sure.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by ars

DEVCORE put out a press release regarding Lebreton:

DCDLS Group Announces Its Commitment to Move Forward on LeBreton Flats Effective Immediately



If everything falls into place with DEVCORE, we may not have to wait too long for development at Lebreton to start up, especially since it looks like the NCC has completed a lot of the required paperwork and due diligence already for the RVL project.

Years of lawsuits to sort out before anything happens, I'd wager.