Rural Commuter Rail

[Jamaican-Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

How many times have we been over this? The time savings from the suburbs over LRT, while traveling to downtown is minimal, with the transfer at Bayview. Would not justify the several hundred million to build this and the tens of millions it would take annually to run this.

Have to keep in mind, money does not grow on trees and there's an opportunity to cost spending on low ridership plans. Your suburban train could mean worse bus service for someone else.

I think you're still missing the bigger picture here. Let me try and break down as many things as I can think of to show why this is a good idea.

The time savings are more of a potential cherry on top rather than the outright focus. As for Bayview, that area is going to grow with condos and offices and destinations such as an arena in the near future. Considering that my rough proposal is "hey, we should start with this one basic line by sometime around 2030" is by no means unreasonable for having development and growth occur in that area over the next twelve years or so.

Furthermore, it seems you've limited yourself to not thinking about the line as trans-provincial. "...while traveling to downtown is minimal, with the transfer at Bayview." What's just beyond the river along the line? Terrasses de la Chaudiere, and offices and businesses on Boulevard Saint-Joseph.

A commuter line is not just about getting people in and out of downtown, but also to key places along the way. My proposed first line alone connects people in Barrhaven and Gatineau to the Colonnade business park, Confederation Heights, Carleton University, Terrasses de la Chaudiere, and businesses and offices on Boulevard Saint-Joseph. It also connects commuters to other transit nodes and destinations, such as malls or residential areas. And that's with just the initial proposed stage 1 line.

Now, to address some other things that weren't mentioned but will likely become a problem in the future. My plan additionally operates under the assumption that the city will continue with it's folly of expanding LRT out to all the major suburbs, only causing continual delays and necessary transfers further and further away from the core. I accept that this will be the necessary reality due to municipal politics. So let's just say it's now 2040, and Kanata and Barrhaven have LRT. Now what?

If we want them to use transit, we also need to stop widening the roads down there. So what's next? by this point (even with the planned BRT and transit measures) most arterials in the big suburbs are now used up, and the transit lines fully established. By the cities own vision of the future, Robertson/Hazeldean would really be the only arterial left.

Now obviously we can slap trains together to handle demand, but as the city continues to grow new transit routes to connect more of the city will need to be found. This plans helps find those in order to help keep road expansion to a bare minimum.

[OtrainUser]

Originally Posted by Jamaican-Phoenix

I think you're still missing the bigger picture here. Let me try and break down as many things as I can think of to show why this is a good idea.

The time savings are more of a potential cherry on top rather than the outright focus. As for Bayview, that area is going to grow with condos and offices and destinations such as an arena in the near future. Considering that my rough proposal is "hey, we should start with this one basic line by sometime around 2030" is by no means unreasonable for having development and growth occur in that area over the next twelve years or so.

Furthermore, it seems you've limited yourself to not thinking about the line as trans-provincial. "...while traveling to downtown is minimal, with the transfer at Bayview." What's just beyond the river along the line? Terrasses de la Chaudiere, and offices and businesses on Boulevard Saint-Joseph.

A commuter line is not just about getting people in and out of downtown, but also to key places along the way. My proposed first line alone connects people in Barrhaven and Gatineau to the Colonnade business park, Confederation Heights, Carleton University, Terrasses de la Chaudiere, and businesses and offices on Boulevard Saint-Joseph. It also connects commuters to other transit nodes and destinations, such as malls or residential areas. And that's with just the initial proposed stage 1 line.

Now, to address some other things that weren't mentioned but will likely become a problem in the future. My plan additionally operates under the assumption that the city will continue with it's folly of expanding LRT out to all the major suburbs, only causing continual delays and necessary transfers further and further away from the core. I accept that this will be the necessary reality due to municipal politics. So let's just say it's now 2040, and Kanata and Barrhaven have LRT. Now what?

If we want them to use transit, we also need to stop widening the roads down there. So what's next? by this point (even with the planned BRT and transit measures) most arterials in the big suburbs are now used up, and the transit lines fully established. By the cities own vision of the future, Robertson/Hazeldean would really be the only arterial left.

Now obviously we can slap trains together to handle demand, but as the city continues to grow new transit routes to connect more of the city will need to be found. This plans helps find those in order to help keep road expansion to a bare minimum.

You obviously don't understand how expensive the current OCTranspo operation is. The city of Ottawa is addressing the main problems first and that is the smart way to go. Getting rid of the bus clog downtown will improve things for the everyday bus commuter. Expanding LRT to high ridership suburb areas like Orleans, Kanata and Barrhaven were obviously the best options given the limited resources the city has.

Apparently you think just because the is available track that it must be used which in reality is not the case. As I have stated in earlier posts which reasonable people agree with is that commuter rail should not be considered unless the exurbs eg Alexandria and Smiths Falls reach a population of at least 100,000 people since that is the only way the city of Ottawa will get most bang for its buck.

Now for MOOSE, they would want to start their 400km rail service all at once not in stages like your idea states. But lets take into account that the city of Ottawa will not allow MOOSE to use its tracks and forces them to build thier own 8km track, ontop of that the other tracks either need to be replaced or upgraded. Only the VIA tracks MOOSE may not have a problem. So out or 400km of rail MOOSE might face having to replace and build up to 390km of rail at an estimate of 20 million per km thats a cost of 7.8 billion dollars. Where does MOOSE have 7.8 billion to spend when they dont even have money for a feasabilty study.

Commuter rail is a nice idea but right now no one has the funds for it and there are no exurb populations high enough to justify it.

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by OtrainUser

You obviously don't understand how expensive the current OCTranspo operation is. The city of Ottawa is addressing the main problems first and that is the smart way to go. Getting rid of the bus clog downtown will improve things for the everyday bus commuter. Expanding LRT to high ridership suburb areas like Orleans, Kanata and Barrhaven were obviously the best options given the limited resources the city has.

So is there any reason why it needs to cost $1.8 billion (and that's only Kanata/Stittsville) when it could just cost a third of that by using existing corridors?

Now for MOOSE, they would want to start their 400km rail service all at once not in stages like your idea states. But lets take into account that the city of Ottawa will not allow MOOSE to use its tracks and forces them to build thier own 8km track, ontop of that the other tracks either need to be replaced or upgraded. Only the VIA tracks MOOSE may not have a problem. So out or 400km of rail MOOSE might face having to replace and build up to 390km of rail at an estimate of 20 million per km thats a cost of 7.8 billion dollars. Where does MOOSE have 7.8 billion to spend when they dont even have money for a feasabilty study.

You're severely overestimating the cost of upgrading existing tracks. Realistically, it would cost somewhere between $3-5 million per km (based on how much it cost to upgrade the Trillium Line corridor, which was in a similar to state to what the tracks that now exist are).

You're also greatly overestimating how much track MOOSE would need to upgrade. Last time I checked (which was just now as I measured it on Google Maps) VIA owns 150km of the track that MOOSE is hoping to use, the vast majority of which would not require upgrades. Several new passing tracks would need to be installed, but that's very different from upgrading 150km worth of track.

So at $4 million per km over 250km of track comes to $750 million (which is a lowball estimate since the aforementioned passing tracks would need to built, the Beachburg sub needs to be rebuilt, etc.) and MOOSE's current capital estimate is $900 million which is a few years old and probably still a bit low. You'd really probably be looking at $1.5 billion max, which MOOSE still doesn't have, but that's still almost an entire order of magnitude less than your estimate.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by OtrainUser

You obviously don't understand how expensive the current OCTranspo operation is. The city of Ottawa is addressing the main problems first and that is the smart way to go. Getting rid of the bus clog downtown will improve things for the everyday bus commuter. Expanding LRT to high ridership suburb areas like Orleans, Kanata and Barrhaven were obviously the best options given the limited resources the city has.

Apparently you think just because the is available track that it must be used which in reality is not the case. As I have stated in earlier posts which reasonable people agree with is that commuter rail should not be considered unless the exurbs eg Alexandria and Smiths Falls reach a population of at least 100,000 people since that is the only way the city of Ottawa will get most bang for its buck.

Now for MOOSE, they would want to start their 400km rail service all at once not in stages like your idea states. But lets take into account that the city of Ottawa will not allow MOOSE to use its tracks and forces them to build thier own 8km track, ontop of that the other tracks either need to be replaced or upgraded. Only the VIA tracks MOOSE may not have a problem. So out or 400km of rail MOOSE might face having to replace and build up to 390km of rail at an estimate of 20 million per km thats a cost of 7.8 billion dollars. Where does MOOSE have 7.8 billion to spend when they dont even have money for a feasabilty study.

Commuter rail is a nice idea but right now no one has the funds for it and there are no exurb populations high enough to justify it.

I really don't think we are talking about commuter rail at all, but another diesel O-Train service connecting parts of the city that are not well served by the Confederation Line route.

Why should I have to go all the way to the Ottawa River, to go to the west end of the city?

I have been talking for years that we need a transit grid. The hub and spokes model that is the Confederation Line is not good enough in a city of this size and with 21st century decentralization.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Jamaican-Phoenix

The time savings are more of a potential cherry on top rather than the outright focus.

It's not even a cherry. The time savings are so negligible that it will fail to have a material impact on ridership while still cost tens to hundreds of millions.

Originally Posted by Jamaican-Phoenix

Considering that my rough proposal is "hey, we should start with this one basic line by sometime around 2030" is by no means unreasonable for having development and growth occur in that area over the next twelve years or so.

By that point, Confederation Line Stage 3 may be built. Would probably be in construction. The Gatineau LRT would be built or in construction. And we may even be discussing Stage 4 in Ottawa. What purpose at that point would commuter rail serve. Especially when it would take away from other projects.

Originally Posted by Jamaican-Phoenix

Furthermore, it seems you've limited yourself to not thinking about the line as trans-provincial. "...while traveling to downtown is minimal, with the transfer at Bayview." What's just beyond the river along the line? Terrasses de la Chaudiere, and offices and businesses on Boulevard Saint-Joseph.

And Gatineau intends to serve those with their use of PoW with a terminus for their LRT at Bayview. So again, what would commuter rail do for this other than messing up their LRT plans?

Originally Posted by Jamaican-Phoenix

A commuter line is not just about getting people in and out of downtown, but also to key places along the way. My proposed first line alone connects people in Barrhaven and Gatineau to the Colonnade business park, Confederation Heights, Carleton University, Terrasses de la Chaudiere, and businesses and offices on Boulevard Saint-Joseph. It also connects commuters to other transit nodes and destinations, such as malls or residential areas. And that's with just the initial proposed stage 1 line.

And yet the Confederation, Trillium and Gatineau LRT and BRT Lines can cover all those destinations with substantially higher frequencies and only slightly lower trip times.

[OtrainUser]

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

So is there any reason why it needs to cost $1.8 billion (and that's only Kanata/Stittsville) when it could just cost a third of that by using existing corridors?

Stage 3 to Kanata would be a brand new corridor but its the righ corridor since it has the most catchment of bus riders. Using the existing corridor may be cheaper but you would have less ridership since most of the ridership is south of the Queensway with a growing Stittsville population. You have to build lines where the existing ridership is not where existing corridors are.

Originally Posted by OCCheetos;8393398
You're severely overestimating the cost of upgrading existing tracks. Realistically, it would cost somewhere between $3-5 million per km (based on how much it cost to upgrade the Trillium Line corridor, which was in a similar to state to what the tracks that now exist are).

You're also [I

greatly[/I] overestimating how much track MOOSE would need to upgrade. Last time I checked (which was just now as I measured it on Google Maps) VIA owns 150km of the track that MOOSE is hoping to use, the vast majority of which would not require upgrades. Several new passing tracks would need to be installed, but that's very different from upgrading 150km worth of track.

So at $4 million per km over 250km of track comes to $750 million (which is a lowball estimate since the aforementioned passing tracks would need to built, the Beachburg sub needs to be rebuilt, etc.) and MOOSE's current capital estimate is $900 million which is a few years old and probably still a bit low. You'd really probably be looking at $1.5 billion max, which MOOSE still doesn't have, but that's still almost an entire order of magnitude less than your estimate.

Its best to overestimate than underestimate, at least if you overestimate then you would be ready for anything unexpected. Again as Truenorth stated Line 2 tracks were in much better condition then any of the other tracks MOOSE plans to use except for the VIA tracks and the extension to line 2 is still going to cost 535 million and thats on an existing corridor so even your 1.5 billion is too low. My estimate is quite realistic based on past recent expenditures, inflation etc.

Here are examples of what the costs for MOOSE's plan will look like

https://www.citylab.com/transportation/2...ve-to-build-urban-rail-in-the-us/551408/

Even my estimates of 20 million per km can be considered lowball esimate and one more thing MOOSE plans require heavy rail and thats always more expensive.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

You're severely overestimating the cost of upgrading existing tracks. Realistically, it would cost somewhere between $3-5 million per km (based on how much it cost to upgrade the Trillium Line corridor, which was in a similar to state to what the tracks that now exist are).

You're also greatly overestimating how much track MOOSE would need to upgrade. Last time I checked (which was just now as I measured it on Google Maps) VIA owns 150km of the track that MOOSE is hoping to use, the vast majority of which would not require upgrades. Several new passing tracks would need to be installed, but that's very different from upgrading 150km worth of track.

So at $4 million per km over 250km of track comes to $750 million (which is a lowball estimate since the aforementioned passing tracks would need to built, the Beachburg sub needs to be rebuilt, etc.) and MOOSE's current capital estimate is $900 million which is a few years old and probably still a bit low. You'd really probably be looking at $1.5 billion max, which MOOSE still doesn't have, but that's still almost an entire order of magnitude less than your estimate.

When the o-train corridor was first “upgraded” on the cheap the tracks were still in terrible condition, the ride was very uncomfortable and the trains ran very slow. There were several much more expensive upgrades since then to get the tracks to a usable condition. It worked for the o-train because it was a pilot project and the average trip was only a few minutes. There is no way that would be a model for people commuting hundreds of kilometres a day.

Look at what GO spends on their capital projects.

[OtrainUser]

http://www.metrolinx.com/en/docs/pdf/boa...0628_BoardMtg_BusinessPlan_Report_EN.pdf

Thats an actual Business plan from Metrolinx the agency that operates GO Transit. There is no way MOOSE has thought their plans through like GO Transit does.

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by OtrainUser

Stage 3 to Kanata would be a brand new corridor but its the righ corridor since it has the most catchment of bus riders. Using the existing corridor may be cheaper but you would have less ridership since most of the ridership is south of the Queensway with a growing Stittsville population. You have to build lines where the existing ridership is not where existing corridors are.

Have you forgotten about the now disused rail corridor that runs straight through Stittsville?

Its best to overestimate than underestimate, at least if you overestimate then you would be ready for anything unexpected. Again as Truenorth stated Line 2 tracks were in much better condition then any of the other tracks MOOSE plans to use except for the VIA tracks and the extension to line 2 is still going to cost 535 million and thats on an existing corridor so even your 1.5 billion is too low. My estimate is quite realistic based on past recent expenditures, inflation etc.

They were in marginally better condition at best, not that it makes a significant difference. It's hard to claim how good of a condition the Trillium Line corridor was before it was upgraded without any real data or source to back either claim up, but if you've never seen these pictures [1] [2] they show one of the last trains to cross the PoW bridge. A train with dozens of hoppers full of balast for the O-Train upgrades. Point being: they still needed significant work.

The Stage 2 extension also include multiple new grade separations which increases the costs significantly and is also laying down new track for 90% of the extension. Also the extension to the airport is not on an existing corridor.

Here are examples of what the costs for MOOSE's plan will look like

https://www.citylab.com/transportation/2...ve-to-build-urban-rail-in-the-us/551408/

Which one of those are you trying to claim is comparable to MOOSE? The ones underground or the ones in freeway medians? Or maybe even the elevated one?

Even my estimates of 20 million per km can be considered lowball esimate and one more thing MOOSE plans require heavy rail and thats always more expensive.

Well clearly this is why MOOSE needs to get their feasibility study done, obviously.

Originally Posted by acottawa

When the o-train corridor was first “upgraded” on the cheap the tracks were still in terrible condition, the ride was very uncomfortable and the trains ran very slow. There were several much more expensive upgrades since then to get the tracks to a usable condition. It worked for the o-train because it was a pilot project and the average trip was only a few minutes. There is no way that would be a model for people commuting hundreds of kilometres a day.

Look at what GO spends on their capital projects.

IIRC most of the speed limitations were noise-related due to sound generated by the jointed track, but that isn't an issue in the country side.

Which of GO's modern capital projects are directly comparable to what MOOSE is trying to implement? (i.e. upgrading existing tracks, or building along abandoned corridors)

[OtrainUser]

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

Have you forgotten about the now disused rail corridor that runs straight through Stittsville?

No I haven't, the city of Ottawa considered that in the environmental study and said it wasn't a good idea so it shouldn't be a good idea for commuter service either.

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

Which one of those are you trying to claim is comparable to MOOSE? The ones underground or the ones in freeway medians? Or maybe even the elevated one?

I went by the cheapest price at 40 million per km which was stated on that webpage and thats double my estimate. So lets put it this way 40 million per km times 300km and that puts MOOSE cost at 12 billion dollars.

There is no investor that would be willing to give MOOSE 12 billion of startup money to upgrade and lay track.

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

IIRC most of the speed limitations were noise-related due to sound generated by the jointed track, but that isn't an issue in the country side.

Line 2 frequency back then was every 30 min because of the poor track
condition. After the upgrades they got it up to every 12 min

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

Which of GO's modern capital projects are directly comparable to what MOOSE is trying to implement? (i.e. upgrading existing tracks, or building along abandoned corridors)

Easy providing service to far off areas but at least GO has the justification for it MOOSE does not.

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by OtrainUser

No I haven't, the city of Ottawa considered that in the environmental study and said it wasn't a good idea so it shouldn't be a good idea for commuter service either.

Well, once they decided to go with extending the LRT they obviously had to go for the biggest bang for their buck which ended up in the $1.8 billion price tag we have now. The point that I (and I think some other members here) am trying to make is that instead of extending the LRT the city could have (and in theory still could) opt for a new line which won't have an ideal alignment compared to the LRT extension, but that would be made up for by the significantly lower capital costs.

Alternatively, such a line should be built anyway with or without the LRT extension to create a transit grid as lrt's friend mentioned.

I went by the cheapest price at 40 million per km which was stated on that webpage and thats double my estimate. So lets put it this way 40 million per km times 300km and that puts MOOSE cost at 12 billion dollars.

So you're trying to tell me that the cost of an urban rail project on a new corridor down the median of a freeway is directly comparable to the cost of a rural rail project? Oookay then. No.

Line 2 frequency back then was every 30 min because of the poor track
condition. After the upgrades they got it up to every 12 min

During normal operations, it was every 20 minutes and that was largely attributable to speed reductions caused by noise (as I had said).

The Trillium Line tracks were initially upgraded to Class 3 which allows passenger rail operations of up to 97km/h. The Trillium Line today only operates at up to 85km/h and only in a few spots (like the Dow's Lake tunnel) so the condition or class of the track was not the limiting factor.

Later on the track was upgraded again to continuously welded track (much quieter) and brought the frequency down to 15 minutes (and I believe were also upgraded to Class 4 track which allows passenger operations up to ~130km/h) and finally the last upgrade 5-3 years ago brought it down again to 12 minutes by adding passing tracks (but was supposed to be 8 minutes).

Assuming that noise was a primary factor in the reduction of speed in the initial O-train operations, I fail to see how that will have an effect on a MOOSE train out in Carp, or for commuter trains running through the city at peak periods.

Easy providing service to far off areas but at least GO has the justification for it MOOSE does not.

You didn't answer the question. Which of those involve GO laying track on previously abandoned corridors, or upgrading old tracks that are in poor condition? IIRC most of GO's recent projects are grade separations and double tracking which are both significantly more expensive.

[OtrainUser]

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

Well, once they decided to go with extending the LRT they obviously had to go for the biggest bang for their buck which ended up in the $1.8 billion price tag we have now. The point that I (and I think some other members here) am trying to make is that instead of extending the LRT the city could have (and in theory still could) opt for a new line which won't have an ideal alignment compared to the LRT extension, but that would be made up for by the significantly lower capital costs.

Alternatively, such a line should be built anyway with or without the LRT extension to create a transit grid as lrt's friend mentioned.

The result will be lower ridership like line 2 currently

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

So you're trying to tell me that the cost of an urban rail project on a new corridor down the median of a freeway is directly comparable to the cost of a rural rail project? Oookay then. No.

All railway infrustructure is expensive to replace, maintain and build no matter how you like to spin it.

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

During normal operations, it was every 20 minutes and that was largely attributable to speed reductions caused by noise (as I had said).

The Trillium Line tracks were initially upgraded to Class 3 which allows passenger rail operations of up to 97km/h. The Trillium Line today only operates at up to 85km/h and only in a few spots (like the Dow's Lake tunnel) so the condition or class of the track was not the limiting factor.

Later on the track was upgraded again to continuously welded track (much quieter) and brought the frequency down to 15 minutes (and I believe were also upgraded to Class 4 track which allows passenger operations up to ~130km/h) and finally the last upgrade 5-3 years ago brought it down again to 12 minutes by adding passing tracks (but was supposed to be 8 minutes).

Assuming that noise was a primary factor in the reduction of speed in the initial O-train operations, I fail to see how that will have an effect on a MOOSE train out in Carp, or for commuter trains running through the city at peak periods.

Easy if I am communting to work out of smiths falls everyday i wouldn't want the train im on to slow down unless im at my destination.

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

You didn't answer the question. Which of those involve GO laying track on previously abandoned corridors, or upgrading old tracks that are in poor condition? IIRC most of GO's recent projects are grade separations and double tracking which are both significantly more expensive.

Regardless about track condition there are no exurb with a large enough population to support commuter service so my point still stands. Show me one Terminus that MOOSE has that has a population of at least 100,000 people trust me you wont find one.

[Allandale25]

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

You didn't answer the question. Which of those involve GO laying track on previously abandoned corridors, or upgrading old tracks that are in poor condition? IIRC most of GO's recent projects are grade separations and double tracking which are both significantly more expensive.

They upgraded the tracks between Bradford and Barrie. But in that case, there was prior GO service and VIA service, and a booming population. So it was very, very easy and cheap to do. It was also taking passengers directly into the Toronto downtown.

[corynv]

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

Well, once they decided to go with extending the LRT they obviously had to go for the biggest bang for their buck which ended up in the $1.8 billion price tag we have now. The point that I (and I think some other members here) am trying to make is that instead of extending the LRT the city could have (and in theory still could) opt for a new line which won't have an ideal alignment compared to the LRT extension, but that would be made up for by the significantly lower capital costs.

Alternatively, such a line should be built anyway with or without the LRT extension to create a transit grid as lrt's friend mentioned.

Where would this new line start and end? If the end of it is the terminus of the confederation line, then it's' entirely pointless to make it a different line.

Also why should an area like that be the 1st one in the city to get multiple lines serving mostly the same people? If anything downtown would need to before any other place in the city.

The only point when doing that would make sense, is once the confederation lines is too over crowded in sittsville/kanata before going to other places.

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by OtrainUser

The result will be lower ridership like line 2 currently

No it wouldn't. That comparison doesn't make sense.

All railway infrustructure is expensive to replace, maintain and build no matter how you like to spin it.

But some infrastructure spending is entire order of magnitudes less than others.

Easy if I am communting to work out of smiths falls everyday i wouldn't want the train im on to slow down unless im at my destination.

I think you missed my point which is that I can't see why the noise made by MOOSE's trains would require them to slow their trains down since they only run during the day, and not directly through residential areas (at least not the parts with jointed track).

Regardless about track condition there are no exurb with a large enough population to support commuter service so my point still stands. Show me one Terminus that MOOSE has that has a population of at least 100,000 people trust me you wont find one.

I know that, but you still haven't answered the question of how much a comparable GO project cost in terms of $/km.

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by Allandale25

They upgraded the tracks between Bradford and Barrie. But in that case, there was prior GO service and VIA service, and a booming population. So it was very, very easy and cheap to do. It was also taking passengers directly into the Toronto downtown.

Would you happen to know how much that project cost?

[lrt's friend]

First, the city did send out one of the Talent trains to the Carp area with considerable fanfare at the time. This is before we threw out our entire TMP from that time period. I still question why we did this.

Is it necessary to use Go style double level heavy rail commuter trains? This type of train alone entails much higher costs than using the type of train used on the Trillium Line.

What I am saying is that using smaller cheaper trains will not require the same population base as the Go system with its massive trains. I am not saying that it is feasible beyond the main urban area, but that 100,000 people is not a minimum requirement.

[Gat-Train]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

First, the city did send out one of the Talent trains to the Carp area with considerable fanfare at the time. This is before we threw out our entire TMP from that time period. I still question why we did this.

Is it necessary to use Go style double level heavy rail commuter trains? This type of train alone entails much higher costs than using the type of train used on the Trillium Line.

What I am saying is that using smaller cheaper trains will not require the same population base as the Go system with its massive trains. I am not saying that it is feasible beyond the main urban area, but that 100,000 people is not a minimum requirement.

Hear hear!

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

I think you missed my point which is that I can't see why the noise made by MOOSE's trains would require them to slow their trains down since they only run during the day, and not directly through residential areas (at least not the parts with jointed track).


I know that, but you still haven't answered the question of how much a comparable GO project cost in terms of $/km.

I take it you have never ridden a train on such track. The slowdown is as much for passenger comfort as anything else.

Look at the feasibility study for a Peterborough GO service.

[Allandale25]

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

Would you happen to know how much that project cost?

No, not easily. But I'm sure it's somewhere online if you start Googling. Also but cost I assume you mean capital cost. On the operations side I think it's now too embedded to break down segments of lines.

If you really want to know you close always file a FOI with Metrolinx.