The Great Canadian Sports Attendance, Marketing and TV Ratings Thread

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I was in a paid ticket section for the eastern final.

We were a bunch of 40-something guys, next to us was a rough-looking guy about our age with his wife. Behind us were people in their 50s. In front of me was dad about our age with his son about 10 years old. And next over in our row were some Indo-Canadian guys who looked to be university-aged.

This breakdown sounds pretty similar to the TV breakdown, then, all things considered.

Regardless it's all anecdotal.

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Grey Cup had 200K viewers on ESPN2 in the US.

http://www.showbuzzdaily.com/articles/sh...originals-network-finals-11-25-2018.html

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by JHikka

“Football is on the decline, and I could start with the Lions and the CFL. You just look at the people in the stands, and they’re all 60 and over. They’ve disengaged … they’re not connected with the youth.
...
“And as a result of that, the stands were full and there were lots of kids there … and all those kids now are old and they’re still there. They’re missing the young group that’s coming in.”
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.

I never dispute that the CFL has demographic challenges, but when I read stuff like this, I can't help but think: it's not the same people who are 60 today who were 60 10 years ago, or 20 years ago.

And so these 60 year olds who are CFL fans today were in their 30s in the 1980s when the Big CFL Turn-Off happened for many Canadian sports fans.

Most people who were around as a fan in the golden era of the CFL, pre-decline (the 60s and 70s) are in their 70s and 80s today.

The bunch of guys I went to the eastern final with are all CFL fans (most don't even follow the NFL) and they were in their teens when the CFL tanked in the 1980s.

The CFL has always attracted *some* new fans, even during its darkest years.

Though perhaps it's attracting less and less of them, but of this I am not sure.

As I've mentioned before I think there is a slow but steady overall decline in pro sports fandom among young males, and this is affecting most sports. Even the big guys.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by JHikka

I think you'd be surprised. If the CFL is going to go after people under 30 they're likely to meet some headwind if they're going up against NCAAF. I wouldn't underestimate how many people watch NCAAF in Canada.
Either way, TSN has both.

You're the numbers guy, give us some stats. I'd be shocked if NCAA football had anything even in the same order of magnitude as CFL and NFL. This is not to disparage the NCAA's product, I just see it as a niche market in Canada .

Again, getting into the anecdotes here, but I know a lot of guys who like football. Some like CFL only, some like NFL only, most watch both to varying degrees. But the only guys I know who have more than a passing interest in NCAA football tend to be a tiny group of the most hardcore - these are the guys who are either coaching high school teams, playing in adult flag football leagues, reffing or doing something else that goes beyond merely watching on TV as a fan. And those guys are generally watching CFL and NFL too.

I did that wood patio thing at a REDBLACKS game this season and although most of the people on the patio were under 40 it is also true that most weren't there for football. Good excuse to drink with something going on in the background. Tickets were free, too, which wasn't too bad.

This is getting a little desperate to make your point ("lots of young people at the game but they don't count because they were drinking on a patio"), but OK.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by esquire

This is getting a little desperate to make your point ("lots of young people at the game but they don't count because they were drinking on a patio"), but OK.

I have to wonder if every single person in a crowd of 60,000 at an NFL game is actually there "for the football".

[Berklon]

Originally Posted by JHikka

I think you'd be surprised. If the CFL is going to go after people under 30 they're likely to meet some headwind if they're going up against NCAAF. I wouldn't underestimate how many people watch NCAAF in Canada.
Either way, TSN has both.

Are there any Canadian TV ratings for NCAAF? I can't imagine the ratings would be that large - but I could be wrong. I'd be curious to know.
I know if I wanted to watch them, I could catch about 5 games every Saturday with my extremely basic cable package.

[Berklon]

Originally Posted by Acajack

As I've mentioned before I think there is a slow but steady overall decline in pro sports fandom among young males, and this is affecting most sports. Even the big guys.

Most definitely. The youth of today have so many more entertainment options available to them that watching sports isn't the default thing to do like it was in my day (get off my lawn!).

[wave46]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I have to wonder if every single person in a crowd of 60,000 at an NFL game is actually there "for the football".

It's for the party. Trust me. And a party it is.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by esquire

You're the numbers guy, give us some stats. I'd be shocked if NCAA football had anything even in the same order of magnitude as CFL and NFL. This is not to disparage the NCAA's product, I just see it as a niche market in Canada .

Originally Posted by Berklon

Are there any Canadian TV ratings for NCAAF? I can't imagine the ratings would be that large - but I could be wrong. I'd be curious to know.
I know if I wanted to watch them, I could catch about 5 games every Saturday with my extremely basic cable package.

NCAAF stats for Canada are exceptionally difficult to find. It's hard enough getting stats for just about any other sports league.

Here's a pretty infographic to distract:



https://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/infographic-sports-watching-habits-havent-changed/

Originally Posted by esquire

This is getting a little desperate to make your point ("lots of young people at the game but they don't count because they were drinking on a patio"), but OK.

No different than anything else most others have said in this thread. It's all anecdotal and it gets us mostly nowhere. "Ottawa is full of techies", "Toronto is all Millennials", etc.

Originally Posted by Acajack

I have to wonder if every single person in a crowd of 60,000 at an NFL game is actually there "for the football".

The NFL isn't exactly bulletproof from attendance issues, either, particularly this season. TV figures seem to be up, though.

[Acajack]

That's a very interesting graphic.

If results from Quebec only were extracted, baseball would be lower, basketball would be ever lower than it already is, and soccer and tennis would be a tad higher. Auto racing (F1) and combat sports (boxing, UFC) didn't even merit their own column but I bet they would in a Quebec-only graphic.

[esquire]

^ I find it peculiar that curling is omitted from that infographic... it has a considerable following compared to fairly marginal pursuits like rugby, cycling and cricket.

[VANRIDERFAN]

And its a Sportsnet sponsored poll, which means they would have skewed the questions heavily towards hockey.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by VANRIDERFAN

And its a Sportsnet sponsored poll, which means they would have skewed the questions heavily towards hockey.

I thought football came in oddly low when you consider that the totals would presumably include both NFL and CFL... your theory could explain it!

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by esquire

I thought football came in oddly low when you consider that the totals would presumably include both NFL and CFL... your theory could explain it!

I think the poll probably didn't allow for multiple answers. So it's only people's number one sport. It excludes everything from number two on down...

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by VANRIDERFAN

And its a Sportsnet sponsored poll, which means they would have skewed the questions heavily towards hockey.

The polling numbers are via MacLean's/Abacus Data stemming from Canada 150.

The SN logo plastered onto a graphic with strong stats for hockey and soccer wasn't lost on me, either, though.

[Acajack]

Generally speaking, when allowing for multiple responses, for Canada in general hockey comes in around 40-50%, football 25-30%, baseball in the 15% range and soccer and basketball around 10% or just under.

[wave46]

Originally Posted by Acajack

As I've mentioned before I think there is a slow but steady overall decline in pro sports fandom among young males, and this is affecting most sports. Even the big guys.

That's what should terrify the big sports leagues.

The Big 4 leagues are pricing themselves out of the market. It was once an 'Average Joe' thing, but is becoming less that every year. The rot starts to happen when people stop watching the TV broadcasts. Given the young people are cutting the cord on paid TV and pro sports is moving towards dedicated sports channels (and subscriptions), it doesn't paint a great picture.

If you want to go to a game, tickets are $100+ per seat, unless you're somewhere where nobody cares and can get tickets cheap.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by wave46

That's what should terrify the big sports leagues.

The Big 4 leagues are pricing themselves out of the market. It was once an 'Average Joe' thing, but is becoming less that every year. The rot starts to happen when people stop watching the TV broadcasts. Given the young people are cutting the cord on paid TV and pro sports is moving towards dedicated sports channels (and subscriptions), it doesn't paint a great picture.

If you want to go to a game, tickets are $100+ per seat, unless you're somewhere where nobody cares and can get tickets cheap. Not a cheap night out.

League revenues tend not to be hurting though, even if attendance and viewership are in some cases.

In some respects it's a small miracle that attendance is still as high as it is though, considering that the at-home experience has never been better with big-screen HDTV feeds being pretty much the default these days and 4K starting to become common, while game tickets are more expensive than ever.

I have partial season ticket packages for the Jets and Blue Bombers and although I enjoy the experience of being in the stands, it is a million times easier and more convenient, not to mention way cheaper, to sit at home and watch on TV. Sometimes I wonder why I bother spending money on game tickets...

[elly63]

Originally Posted by esquire

Hey I know this is crazy, but is it possible that what might be true in Toronto does not necessarily apply to the rest of the country?

That's crazy talk!

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by wave46

]The Big 4 leagues are pricing themselves out of the market. It was once an 'Average Joe' thing, but is becoming less that every year. The rot starts to happen when people stop watching the TV broadcasts. Given the young people are cutting the cord on paid TV and pro sports is moving towards dedicated sports channels (and subscriptions), it doesn't paint a great picture.

This is why sports teams are beginning to emphasis atmosphere at games. The event itself isn't enough for some young people - there needs to be something heavy and worthwhile going on. The arena/stadium needs to be packed, rocking, and alight.

We're getting to the point where young people aren't even cutting cords because they have no cords to cut - people who have grown up without cable whatsoever and rely nearly exclusively on internet/streaming. If leagues can't get on top of this (the MLB has been particularly good at getting online) then they'll be left behind.

For sports teams, as long as there are enough wealthier people in the venue (boxes, premium seats, etc.) then it's fine. A team can make off of one premium seat what they make off of ten cheap seats over the course of a year. It's why new arena and stadium builds are being downsized and why ticket scarcity is a better issue to have than ticket supply.

Group sales and corporate packages are the name of the game.

Originally Posted by esquire

League revenues tend not to be hurting though, even if attendance and viewership are in some cases.

TV deals (including online and streaming rights) continue to increase along with sponsorship deals. Revenue streams are not an issue for pro sports leagues right now.

Originally Posted by esquire

I have partial season ticket packages for the Jets and Blue Bombers and although I enjoy the experience of being in the stands, it is a million times easier and more convenient to sit at home and watch on TV. Sometimes I wonder why I bother spending money on game tickets...

This is why it comes down to atmosphere at games. People are willing to go to games if there's a crazy atmosphere that you can't get from being at home on the couch. It's essentially the only way physical sports can compete going into the future.

If your sport is boring, or slow, or monotonous, it likely doesn't have much of a future. Looking at you, Golf and NASCAR.

[wave46]

Originally Posted by esquire

League revenues tend not to be hurting though, even if attendance and viewership are in some cases.

In some respects it's a small miracle that attendance is still as high as it is though, considering that the at-home experience has never been better with big-screen HDTV feeds being pretty much the default these days and 4K starting to become common, while game tickets are more expensive than ever.

I have partial season ticket packages for the Jets and Blue Bombers and although I enjoy the experience of being in the stands, it is a million times easier and more convenient, not to mention way cheaper, to sit at home and watch on TV. Sometimes I wonder why I bother spending money on game tickets...

I'm looking at it from a 'tip of the iceberg' point of view.

The Big 3 automakers had that complacent point of view too, until it all came crashing down.

I don't think the Big 4 leagues will be anywhere near as dire as the automakers, but I don't think they should be overly confident either.