Stadiums & Arenas of Canada, Part 3

[Jay in Cowtown]

Originally Posted by TheGreatestX

Commonwealth did a great job, just as it will do in 2026 for the World Cup.

Aside from that slippery field!

Commonwealth is still the class of the league... even with the recent new stadiums.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Jay in Cowtown

Aside from that slippery field!

Commonwealth is still the class of the league... even with the recent new stadiums.

Some stadiums don't last very long (Georgia Dome being an extreme example) but some just keep right on trucking and are still 100% up to the job... Arrowhead Stadium and the Superdome are two examples, and I'd put Commonwealth in that category too.

[JHikka]

Halifax council mulls tax hikes to cope with increased labour costs
CTV Atl;antic
Published Tuesday, November 27, 2018 9:48PM AST
Last Updated Tuesday, November 27, 2018 10:04PM AST

https://atlantic.ctvnews.ca/halifax-...osts-1.4195292

Just in time for the holidays, Halifax Regional Council has kicked off what promises to be a lengthy debate about proposed tax hikes.

Municipal staff have suggested a couple of options, including one that would see property taxes go up by almost three per cent next year.

Another possibility is slashing services, but both options make big-ticket items, such as a new CFL stadium, a long shot.

[MonctonRad]

Nothing like a proposed property tax hike to mute any enthusiasm over a potential new sports stadium.

Methinks we are about to observe a redux of the Commonwealth Games fiasco.........

[wave46]

Originally Posted by esquire

Some stadiums don't last very long (Georgia Dome being an extreme example) but some just keep right on trucking and are still 100% up to the job... Arrowhead Stadium and the Superdome are two examples, and I'd put Commonwealth in that category too.

Multipurpose stadiums in the US were a kludge that looked good on paper but didn't work well in reality. Dedicated venues for baseball and football have stood the test of time there. (see: Fenway Park/Arrowhead)

In Canada, a different story. Lacking the extreme baseball and football culture, multipurpose stadiums favouring dominant sport tailored to each area (football in West, baseball in Toronto) or smaller venues (BMO Field) tended to be built. About the dumbest thing we built was the Big-O, for reasons that don't need to be rehashed.

Obviously, indoor arenas are huge here for one big reason (NHL), but are supremely more useful as they can be used for other events (NBA/concerts) 365 days a year. Only notable 'failure' was the Corel Centre/Scotiabank Place/Canadian Tire Place/insert future sponsor here, because it was built in the boonies.

[EpicPonyTime]

Originally Posted by wave46

Obviously, indoor arenas are huge here for one big reason (NHL), but are supremely more useful as they can be used for other events (NBA/concerts) 365 days a year. Only notable 'failure' was the Corel Centre/Scotiabank Place/Canadian Tire Place/insert future sponsor here, because it was built in the boonies.

Can Canadian Tire Place even be considered a failure? It's still proven to be a highly useful arena for Ottawa unless I am mistaken. I'd argue the large arenas in secondary markets (Copps, Sask Place, Videotron atm) are better examples of failures given they have never truly been utilized to their full potential and/or failed in their purpose of attracting a pro team.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by EpicPonyTime

Can Canadian Tire Place even be considered a failure? It's still proven to be a highly useful arena for Ottawa unless I am mistaken. I'd argue the large arenas in secondary markets (Copps, Sask Place, Videotron atm) are better examples of failures given they have never truly been utilized to their full potential and/or failed in their purpose of attracting a pro team.

Yes, that's a good point.

The Canadian Tire Centre hosts around 75 events a year. That's not really a flop.

[wave46]

Originally Posted by EpicPonyTime

Can Canadian Tire Place even be considered a failure? It's still proven to be a highly useful arena for Ottawa unless I am mistaken. I'd argue the large arenas in secondary markets (Copps, Sask Place, Videotron atm) are better examples of failures given they have never truly been utilized to their full potential and/or failed in their purpose of attracting a pro team.

By Canadian standards, yes.

It was opened in 1996 and they're actively trying to replace it 22 years later. The land under it is more valuable than the building, which is saying a lot since the suburbs of Ottawa aren't that pricey. The only other arena that comes close to that is the Saddledome, but that was opened in 1983.

Extraordinary successes might be something like Maple Leaf Gardens and the Montreal Forum. Moderate successes might be Pacific Coliseum and Rexall Place.

- Videotron is too early to tell right now.
- Copps was a blunder (forgot about that one), but I think it will be used as-is for a long time, since there's no business case to replace it.
- SaskPlace is still being used, AFAIK there's no plan to replace it (I could be wrong).

[esquire]

^ Copps and SaskPlace are not totally white elephants in that they are the main arenas for their cities, just that they were overbuilt in anticipation of NHL teams that never came. Both cities could have gotten away with building something half to two thirds the size, but that's hindsight. Time will tell whether Videotron will enter the same category.

It's a little murkier with respect to CTC... a quarter century is a short lifespan by Canadian NHL arena standards but it isn't that far off from the average either.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by JHikka

Halifax council mulls tax hikes to cope with increased labour costs
CTV Atl;antic
Published Tuesday, November 27, 2018 9:48PM AST
Last Updated Tuesday, November 27, 2018 10:04PM AST

https://atlantic.ctvnews.ca/halifax-...osts-1.4195292

Just in time for the holidays, Halifax Regional Council has kicked off what promises to be a lengthy debate about proposed tax hikes.

Municipal staff have suggested a couple of options, including one that would see property taxes go up by almost three per cent next year.

Another possibility is slashing services, but both options make big-ticket items, such as a new CFL stadium, a long shot.

What a bad article. It contains no stadium news at all.

The only tenuous link comes from the writer speculating that the city can't build a stadium if municipal taxes one year go up by 0.5% more than inflation.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by esquire

It's a little murkier with respect to CTC... a quarter century is a short lifespan by Canadian NHL arena standards but it isn't that far off from the average either.

Its lifespan might be extending beyond a quarter century, by the looks of things.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by someone123

What a bad article. It contains no stadium news at all.

The only tenuous link comes from the writer speculating that the city can't build a stadium if municipal taxes one year go up by 0.5% more than inflation.

Yep. Only here because of its mention, but the article itself mostly references the rising costs of municipal labour.

It does give a glimmer into municipal financing down the road, though, along with a cheery quote from the CTF.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by JHikka

Yep. Only here because of its mention, but the article itself mostly references the rising costs of municipal labour.

It does give a glimmer into municipal financing down the road, though, along with a cheery quote from the CTF.

The sports lobby in Haligon remain enthusiastic over the possibility of a new stadium, but the average rate payers seem considerably more taciturn, especially those who contribute letters to the editor at the Chronically Horrid.

[wave46]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Its lifespan might be extending beyond a quarter century, by the looks of things.

True, but that's sort of in an ironic fashion. The lack of success of the main tenant (which some argue is due to the failure of the venue's location) may lead to it having a longer lifespan.

I think there's much more to it than that though, but that's a topic for another thread.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by someone123

The only tenuous link comes from the writer speculating that the city can't build a stadium if municipal taxes one year go up by 0.5% more than inflation.

You have to keep in mind this is an increase in the tax rate, over and above any increased tax payments due to increased assessments.

It is therefore a kick in the nuts for average homeowners.

I remain hopeful for a stadium in Halifax, but news like this (especially if presented in a negative manner by the media, and seized upon by lobby groups like the Canadian Taxpayers Federation) will create an ill wind for this project.........

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Its lifespan might be extending beyond a quarter century, by the looks of things.

If it makes it to 30 then that's getting kind of decent by modern standards, sad as it is.

I find it koo koo bananas that a perfectly suitable building can be written off when it's still in great shape. It was one thing to demolish dumps way past their prime like Ivor Wynne or CanadInns Stadiums, but CTC is still a modern building in practically every sense of the word. And you would think Ottawa residents would have gotten used to the location by now.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by esquire

If it makes it to 30 then that's getting kind of decent by modern standards, sad as it is. ... And you would think Ottawa residents would have gotten used to the location by now.

Nope.

Still in the middle of nowhere. Nothing surrounding it. Traffic to Kanata gets worse every year.

[wave46]

Originally Posted by esquire

I find it koo koo bananas that a perfectly suitable building can be written off when it's still in great shape. It was one thing to demolish dumps way past their prime like Ivor Wynne or CanadInns Stadiums, but CTC is still a modern building in practically every sense of the word. And you would think Ottawa residents would have gotten used to the location by now.

The question is: What do you do with it? You can hand it to the government to run (see: the Big O), but if there's no profitable reason to keep the building, it's effectively an empty, money-losing monument.

Ottawa doesn't need two NHL-sized arenas. If it was Toronto, sure, an alternative venue would be great.

Ottawa is a weird place for pro sports. You'd think given the team's relatively strong past successes and the fact that's it is a large market (for Canada), it would do well. The Senators just don't really move the needle though when they're not doing well. Maybe being dropped in-between Habs country and Leafs country is a hurdle too far?

I can't explain it. Pro sports always seems to struggle in the nation's capitol.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by JHikka

Nope.

Still in the middle of nowhere. Nothing surrounding it. Traffic to Kanata gets worse every year.

For some reason they've never been able to even dull the negatives associated with the building's location. Even the shuttle bus service, which Ottawans are accustomed to using for many big events (Winterlude, Redblacks games, etc.) has mostly flopped.

I dunno...

[SaskScraper]

Originally Posted by wave46

Obviously, indoor arenas are huge here for one big reason (NHL), but are supremely more useful as they can be used for other events (NBA/concerts) 365 days a year. Only notable 'failure' was the Corel Centre/Scotiabank Place/Canadian Tire Place/insert future sponsor here, because it was built in the boonies.

Large number of NHL sized indoor arenas, even medium sized arenas, isn't necessarily specific to Canada. California has just as many as Canada with a similar population size, & not just for sports, even with large sized outdoor venues for entertainment like Hollywood Bowl & Shoreline Amp, etc. California has just as many indoor venues. UK has a lot more large sized indoor arenas than I would've ever expected but they are mostly for other sports and entertainment.

Corel Centre & 'Sask Place' are similar in that they were built on outskirts when
available downtown land/higher costs or opposition to centralized large sized arena construction was in it's prime, but building arenas like Gila River on outskirts of some cities are still viable.

'Sask Place' even without an NHL team has been such a success that City of Saskatoon is planning on building new arena downtown in the next decade.
Bruce Urban, one of the pro sports tenants at Sask Place is even putting money towards it being built a bigger arena. This will also help with attracting more events and concerts since current arena is the primary entertainment indoor arena in The Prairies attracting the largest indoor concerts outside of Alberta.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Truth_About_Love_Tour

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demi_World_Tour

As far as CFL Stadium being built for Atlantic Schooner's goes, I think The CFL should still award Maritimes a team, have the team split home games between Monctown stadium and an enlarged St Mary's Stadium. Charge full price for half season tickets at each of the venues to make up for the barely half sized venues and if there is a demand for the CFL in the Maritimes it should be obvious early on whether they should go ahead and build a $200 million full sized stadium at some point in the future.