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  #2381  
Old Posted Nov 28, 2018, 4:32 PM
acottawa acottawa is offline
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Originally Posted by ars View Post
So basically just feelings and no real proof?

Ok
Primary sources are not “feelings.”
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  #2382  
Old Posted Nov 28, 2018, 4:39 PM
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A few thoughts on the idea of a "glut".

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Originally Posted by acottawa View Post
That is a statement by a condo developer (who shows up in Ottawa with grand announcements every few years). Almost every condo built over the last few years has unsold units. Most buildings under construction have lots of units.

How many actual shovels went into the ground in 2018? I can’t think of any off hand, but I’m sure there are some.
Why are unsold units evidence of a "glut"? By construction (literally), condo towers have the property that all units are constructed at the same time. Also true of rentals. Difficult to time that perfectly, so it seems reasonable to think that it might take a few years before you unload the last unit at a given location. Contrast this with detached housing, where completions can be almost perfectly matched with ready buyers. If anything, I would think condo projects that sell out by the time construction is complete are evidence of a condo shortage.

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Originally Posted by acottawa View Post
Those articles are all about the rental market, which has not induced investors to buy condos and eat into the condo glut, so there’s is still a condo glut.

Also, since the big box and condo developers are flooding the market with rental units, I suspect we will also have a rental glut in a few years.
Flooding? Vacancy rate is 1.5%. And lots of the existing rental stock is old. I think there is a plenty of room for rentals. In general, I think talk of "gluts" while the housing price level continues to rise faster than the general price level is a bit misleading.
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  #2383  
Old Posted Nov 28, 2018, 5:14 PM
acottawa acottawa is offline
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Originally Posted by shawkr View Post
A few thoughts on the idea of a "glut".



Why are unsold units evidence of a "glut"? By construction (literally), condo towers have the property that all units are constructed at the same time. Also true of rentals. Difficult to time that perfectly, so it seems reasonable to think that it might take a few years before you unload the last unit at a given location. Contrast this with detached housing, where completions can be almost perfectly matched with ready buyers. If anything, I would think condo projects that sell out by the time construction is complete are evidence of a condo shortage.



Flooding? Vacancy rate is 1.5%. And lots of the existing rental stock is old. I think there is a plenty of room for rentals. In general, I think talk of "gluts" while the housing price level continues to rise faster than the general price level is a bit misleading.

A supply that exceeds demand is pretty much the definition of a glut.

A rental glut has already hit many cities in the US. Council has approved thousands of rental units over the last two years. As those are approved it is going to push vacancy.


https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/...-through-the-hottest-u-s-housing-markets
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  #2384  
Old Posted Nov 28, 2018, 6:12 PM
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Back to LeBreton Flats, Melnyk's complaints about the location of the arena,which has not moved, reduces the credibility of his lawsuit. The reasoning behind the arena's location was sound. Having the arena plugged into one station could negatively effect the viability of the project by reducing clientele to restaurants and retail fronts (patrons would go straight to the trains instead of walking past retail tenants) and would overload the transit platform since the passenger volume would not be split.

I tried to find the LeBreton planning application but was not able to do so.
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  #2385  
Old Posted Nov 28, 2018, 6:22 PM
shawkr shawkr is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by acottawa View Post
A supply that exceeds demand is pretty much the definition of a glut.

A rental glut has already hit many cities in the US. Council has approved thousands of rental units over the last two years. As those are approved it is going to push vacancy.


https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/...-through-the-hottest-u-s-housing-markets

Not meaningful: Supply exceeds demand.

Meaningful: Quantity supplied exceeds quantity demanded (def'n of surplus, or "glut").

Of course, "gluts" and "shortages" are really just instances of markets that don't clear. So if we're going to talk of "gluts", we should emphasize two things:

1. What does it mean for a market to not clear? Especially as it relates to time. Is it meaningful to say that a market is not clearing if there are unsold condos at a particular moment? Or do we need to think about it over a period of time?

2. What is the structural mechanism that is causing the "glut"? I'm not sure it makes sense to talk about "gluts" unless we have something to say about why prices are not able to adjust to attain market clearing.
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  #2386  
Old Posted Nov 28, 2018, 7:11 PM
lrt's friend lrt's friend is online now
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Originally Posted by J.OT13 View Post
Back to LeBreton Flats, Melnyk's complaints about the location of the arena,which has not moved, reduces the credibility of his lawsuit. The reasoning behind the arena's location was sound. Having the arena plugged into one station could negatively effect the viability of the project by reducing clientele to restaurants and retail fronts (patrons would go straight to the trains instead of walking past retail tenants) and would overload the transit platform since the passenger volume would not be split.

I tried to find the LeBreton planning application but was not able to do so.
I never bought this argument. People will very quickly identify which station is most advantageous to them to make a quick exit from the arena. Most people will make the same decision. To go east, you walk west. to go west, you walk east. No sense doing the opposite and face an already crush loaded train. Also, in a cold weather city like Ottawa, making us face the elements in the dead of winter to encourage us to eat somewhere outside the arena just makes the experience less appealing to those who have no intentions of doing so. The next thing that we will see are demands to build a similar covered walkway like they have at CTC to get ticket holders from the stations to the arena when it is snowing or -30 winds. Will this improved the neighbourhood? Hardly!

I hope that if they ever build a subway on Bank Street, that they don't make the same mistake and make us walk to Fifth Avenue or Sunnyside to get on a train when leaving Lansdowne. Build platforms to meet the needs of the location.

We are overthinking public behaviour when the public simply wants convenience.

Last edited by lrt's friend; Nov 28, 2018 at 7:23 PM.
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  #2387  
Old Posted Nov 28, 2018, 7:15 PM
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  #2388  
Old Posted Nov 28, 2018, 7:27 PM
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To me a bad rental glut is when the surplus supply is high enough to make rents drop to below what is sustainable/profitable in the medium/long term. Rents in Ottawa are still quite high especially compared to Montreal. I think the new stock at 900 Albert will attract a lot of people renting in aging buildings farther from the core, and hopefully make those older places more affordable.

I don't see how this affects condo sales other than for those who buy units for investment and rent them out.
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  #2389  
Old Posted Nov 28, 2018, 7:46 PM
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Originally Posted by lrt's friend View Post
I never bought this argument. People will very quickly identify which station is most advantageous to them to make a quick exit from the arena. Most people will make the same decision. To go east, you walk west. to go west, you walk east. No sense doing the opposite and face an already crush loaded train. Also, in a cold weather city like Ottawa, making us face the elements in the dead of winter to encourage us to eat somewhere outside the arena just makes the experience less appealing to those who have no intentions of doing so. The next thing that we will see are demands to build a similar covered walkway like they have at CTC to get ticket holders from the stations to the arena when it is snowing or -30 winds. Will this improved the neighbourhood? Hardly!

I hope that if they ever build a subway on Bank Street, that they don't make the same mistake and make us walk to Fifth Avenue or Sunnyside to get on a train when leaving Lansdowne. Build platforms to meet the needs of the location.

We are overthinking public behaviour when the public simply wants convenience.
I completely disagree. There needs to be enough of a crowd-holding buffer between a larger venue and transit stations, with enough capacity to empty the arena quickly (as in an emergency — ie., fire, bomb threat or shooting), and trickle into the stations in a rate it can handle. In normal times, having diversions like restaurants in between help temper the rate by giving the people the option to leave at a later time.

Almost seems like you're asking for an indoor mall between the arena and the stations Also, TD Place is an outdoor stadium, why would an exterior walk for a couple of blocks be such a big deal WRT facing the elements? I don't think we should be encouraging people to not dress properly for the weather. This is why people freeze to death when their car breaks down in the middle of nowhere in winter.

Last edited by Kitchissippi; Nov 28, 2018 at 9:13 PM.
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  #2390  
Old Posted Nov 28, 2018, 8:34 PM
CityTech CityTech is offline
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Originally Posted by Kitchissippi View Post
To me a bad rental glut is when the surplus supply is high enough to make rents drop to below what is sustainable/profitable in the medium/long term. Rents in Ottawa are still quite high especially compared to Montreal. I think the new stock at 900 Albert will attract a lot of people renting in aging buildings farther from the core, and hopefully make those older places more affordable.

I don't see how this affects condo sales other than for those who buy units for investment and rent them out.
New rental units are often stupidly overpriced. If we can get enough of them built and the vacancy rate to trend up, we should see some improvement in pricing.
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  #2391  
Old Posted Nov 29, 2018, 1:38 PM
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The Mayor claims the Sens wanted the City to pay for the arena. The way he is presenting this is as if they wanted the City to pay 100%. The Sens were asking for the Edmonton model, which I think is a fair request. When the City said "no", the Sens moved on, despite the double standard (again). In the grand scheme of things, whether or not the Sens asked for taxpayers money is a moot point. It doesn't matter.

Quote:
Ottawa Senators' COO shoots back at Watson over LeBreton comments

OBJ
November 29, 2018


The Ottawa Senators fired back at Ottawa Mayor Jim Watson after he told reporters on Wednesday the NHL team wanted the city to pay for an arena as part of the LeBreton Flats redevelopment.

Senators chief operating officer Nicolas Ruszkowski said Watson's comments were "disappointing and inaccurate."

The dispute between Senators owner Eugene Melnyk and RendezVous LeBreton Group partner John Ruddy made headlines last Thursday when the National Capital Commission said the group needed to resolve their internal issues by January or else the Crown corporation would have to consider other options for LeBreton Flats, west of downtown. The following day, Melnyk filed a $700-million lawsuit against Ruddy and others, saying the joint venture failed because of an "egregious conflict of interest on the part of Trinity (Group) and its principal, John Ruddy."

Watson weighed in on the issue again Wednesday, prompting a response from Ruszkowski.

"At city hall's own urging, the partners in RLG took part in preliminary discussions that were characterized as strictly exploratory," Ruszkowski said. "This was because city hall had not yet received a mandate from Council to officially begin negotiations with RLG at the time. In that context, numerous options for the development of the site were discussed; including, for instance, the adoption of Edmonton's arena development model. When informed that this was impossible, RLG moved on. At no time did (Capital Sports Management Inc., a company owned by Melnyk) or Eugene Melnyk demand the city build an arena."

Ottawa’s Economic Outlook in 2017 featured a keynote address the key figures involved in Edmonton’s public-private partnership to build a new home for the Oilers hockey team. Edmonton’s point man on its publicly subsidized arena, Rick Daviss, told OBJ ahead of the annual event that it’s a tough sell to taxpayers but he believes major sports venues have the ability to breathe new life into a city’s economy.

Ruszkowski also brought up the last major stadium issue in Ottawa, the development of Lansdowne Park. The area includes TD Place, home of the five-year-old CFL Redblacks, of which Ruddy is a part owner.

"It is worth noting that the mayor's remarks suggest a double standard. While he is adamant that government support will not be extended to build an NHL arena, during his tenure as mayor, he has supported the City of Ottawa's funding of roughly half of the redevelopment of Lansdowne Park, at a cost of about $210 million."

– With files from OBJ staff
https://obj.ca/article/ottawa-senators-coo-shoots-back-watson-over-lebreton-comments
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  #2392  
Old Posted Nov 29, 2018, 6:17 PM
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City held off on public consultations for RendezVous development application

Jon Willing, Ottawa Citizen
Updated: November 28, 2018


An incomplete development package, the municipal election and a request by the National Capital Commission prevented the city from starting a public consultation on the LeBreton Flats planning application.

RendezVous LeBreton Group filed the development application at the end of August, but it wasn’t complete because it was missing a noise study.

The city subsequently received the noise study, but by then the election was in full swing.

Stephen Willis, the City of Ottawa’s general manager of planning, infrastructure and economic development, said it would have been “inappropriate” to start a consultation in the middle of the election campaign.

Then, the NCC asked the city not to start the public consultation process until the board met in November.

“We were getting ourselves ready, and because there were federal approvals and city approvals both entwined, some of which also work together, like design review, we wanted to check in with (the NCC) because we want the most streamlined process we can possibly get,” Willis said.

Willis said it was “reasonable” to hold off on public consultations until the NCC board received an update on the project.

Unbeknown to most people at city hall, the LeBreton Flats redevelopment was up in the air because of a soured relationship inside RendezVous. That detail was revealed at the NCC board meeting last Thursday and then thrust into the spotlight Friday thanks to Capital Sports Management Inc.’s lawsuit against Trinity.

City officials “really don’t know what to do with (the development application) at this stage,” Willis said.

“The application is on hold, as far as we’re concerned, until the situation clarifies itself.”

Based on what Willis has seen in the development application, the proposed project has “good logic” that built on early work done by the NCC.

“If you actually compare the NCC’s own plans and this, it was an evolution of previous plans,” Willis said.

“I am still an optimist that there will come a day when additional development will happen on LeBreton Flats. I remain a believer that it’s destined to happen. I just can’t tell you when.”

Willis is uniquely positioned in the LeBreton Flats project. He’s the NCC’s former executive director of capital planning and oversaw the agency’s LeBreton work while he was there.

Willis declined to comment on what has transpired over the past week. He said he also can’t comment on his work at the NCC.

“I’m just hopeful that we find a path forward. That’s what I’ll say,” Willis said.

[email protected]
twitter.com/JonathanWilling

https://ottawacitizen.com/news/local-new...s-for-rendezvous-development-application
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  #2393  
Old Posted Nov 29, 2018, 10:43 PM
lrt's friend lrt's friend is online now
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Originally Posted by Kitchissippi View Post
I completely disagree. There needs to be enough of a crowd-holding buffer between a larger venue and transit stations, with enough capacity to empty the arena quickly (as in an emergency — ie., fire, bomb threat or shooting), and trickle into the stations in a rate it can handle. In normal times, having diversions like restaurants in between help temper the rate by giving the people the option to leave at a later time.

Almost seems like you're asking for an indoor mall between the arena and the stations Also, TD Place is an outdoor stadium, why would an exterior walk for a couple of blocks be such a big deal WRT facing the elements? I don't think we should be encouraging people to not dress properly for the weather. This is why people freeze to death when their car breaks down in the middle of nowhere in winter.
In one of the recent articles, Melnyck was specifically wanting to move the arena so that there would be direct access to LRT from the arena, so I am not the only one thinking this way. Furthermore, it is in the interest of the arena owner, to have people eat within the arena. Nevertheless, if the area is lively, people will naturally filter themselves but if I want to go home, don't expect me to walk 500 m in -30C conditions or a blizzard. That is not going to change my mind that I should drop in to the local bar. More likely, it will change my mind about buying tickets at all.

If a subway were to be built on Bank Street, it would be insane to force 24.000 to walk 500 m just to 'filter' people. Bank Street is too narrow to force people to walk several blocks to a station. It is already bedlam on a normal football night with transit at the door.

And no, I don't want an underground mall, but if I am in a hurry, I might want to pick something to eat inside the arena.

Maybe if people don't dress properly, we can provide them with warnings on the arena website. Really? If you are taking transit, most people with a brain will dress accordingly.
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  #2394  
Old Posted Nov 30, 2018, 12:36 AM
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I'm really on the fence with the walk/direct access question. Yes.. seamless convenience is definitely nice... I do like getting from Ottawa Train Station to YYZ without "really" going outside

However I've grown fond of the Lansdowne model of being forced outside from the garage to get to the theatre... still a sightly sterile, but enjoyable buzz going on at all times I've been there. I always want to walk around a bit to see whats going on and possibly eat/drink. It will only get better.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lrt's friend View Post
In one of the recent articles, Melnyck was specifically wanting to move the arena so that there would be direct access to LRT from the arena, so I am not the only one thinking this way. Furthermore, it is in the interest of the arena owner, to have people eat within the arena. Nevertheless, if the area is lively, people will naturally filter themselves but if I want to go home, don't expect me to walk 500 m in -30C conditions or a blizzard. That is not going to change my mind that I should drop in to the local bar. More likely, it will change my mind about buying tickets at all.

If a subway were to be built on Bank Street, it would be insane to force 24.000 to walk 500 m just to 'filter' people. Bank Street is too narrow to force people to walk several blocks to a station. It is already bedlam on a normal football night with transit at the door.
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.
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Lets do the math for real:
- Middle of Pimisi to middle of Bayview is 840m (Google Earth).
- Place the arena equidistant to both.
- It's all linear, so place the entry to each station 100m before the middle of the station (640m).
- Arena (even inverted bowl) would be realistically 150m from end-to-end (490m).
- With exits at both ends, that works out to a 245m walk. The average person could do that in 3 minutes.

Sooo... do we develop an arena (which should be used year round) around the -30 and blizzard days? Or take a broader view and think of the long term implications of the neighbourhood in general?
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  #2395  
Old Posted Nov 30, 2018, 4:24 AM
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If you had to connect the arena to a station wouldn't it make more sense to connect to Bayview? It serves people travelling south, east and west and eventually north to Gatineau over the Prince of Wales Bridge.
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  #2396  
Old Posted Nov 30, 2018, 5:18 AM
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It's ironic that people would sit for a few hours to watch and admire a bunch of guys physically exert themselves running back and forth a field or skating around a patch of ice, but then complain about having to walk a couple of hundred metres to get there Yay, "sports!"
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  #2397  
Old Posted Nov 30, 2018, 12:50 PM
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The LeBreton question: Who's right, Melnyk or Ruddy?

James Bagnall, Ottawa Citizen
Updated: November 29, 2018


It’s the big question at the heart of the $700-million lawsuit launched Nov. 23 by Ottawa Senators owner Eugene Melnyk.

Why would Trinity Development founder John Ruddy — the target of that suit and one of the city’s most experienced real-estate entrepreneurs — deliberately undercut his part of the massive project to remake LeBreton Flats as alleged by Melnyk?

Ruddy and his team say there is enough housing demand in downtown Ottawa to support his two largest projects — a 1,300-unit apartment-and-retail complex at 900 Albert St. and the 4,400-unit development that is meant to populate LeBreton Flats.

Melnyk maintains that the 900 Albert St. apartments, which will be first to market, will mean slower condo and apartment (and retail) sales for years at the LeBreton project, thus squeezing multiple revenue streams the project depends upon to pay for the upfront construction.

Who is right?

While it’s impossible to be definitive, given the size and complexity of these projects, we can now examine the assumptions each of the partners used in reaching their conclusions.

This newspaper has obtained copies of each of the three real-estate studies commissioned in 2015 and 2018 by the two businessmen and their partnership, RendezVous LeBreton.

What the reports reveal is a wide range of possible scenarios for housing depending on assumptions about population growth, the percentage of buyers who opt for condos or apartments compared to single-family homes, and how many people choose to live downtown.

Melnyk last April commissioned a report by PwC, a consulting group, while Trinity purchased one in August from Urbanation, a Toronto real-estate specialist. The latter was an update of the initial 2015 study paid for by RendezVous LeBreton.

PwC and Urbantion each estimated that condo and apartment projects already in the pipeline would add about 10,000 units to the downtown area over the next decade — excluding the units to be provided by 900 Albert St. and LeBreton.

However, the two consulting groups drew much different conclusions about how many people would actually purchase all these properties.

PwC reckoned that even under its most optimistic economic scenario, there would be room for both 900 Albert and LeBreton only during the first two years of the LeBreton project. Between 2020 and 2024, PwC expected 900 Albert and LeBreton would each make available about 200 units annually for a total of 400 — against estimated demand of only 170.

Under PwC’s pessimistic economic scenario, not only would there be no takers for 900 Albert or LeBreton, there would be a surplus of 480 residential units annually for all the other downtown projects between 2020 and 2024.

Urbanation saw things much differently, noting that Ottawa’s population should grow by roughly 20,000 people annually, leading to projected annual demand for all types of housing (condos, apartments, single-family homes) of 8,000 units, compared to the 10-year average of 6,000.

Urbanation also suggested the drop in rental vacancies bodes well for new condo and apartment construction. The consulting group added the LeBreton project could take some comfort the experience of housing developments around the downtown arenas of the Toronto Maple Leafs and Montreal Canadiens. Condos in these districts sold extremely quickly.

“Despite the large quantity of units proposed in the marketplace generally and at 900 Albert specifically,” Urbanation concluded in its August 2018 report for Ruddy, “market conditions have become highly supportive of new apartment development.”

But even in the Urbanation studies there were some warning signs. In a section that examined housing developments immediately adjacent to the LeBreton site, the Toronto consultants noted that buyers have not been stepping up quickly. Claridge, for instance, had filled just 40 per cent of its 320-unit tower at 485 Preston St. after years of marketing. And the Ottawa component of Zibi — a major new development just to the north of LeBreton — had sold 71 units since December 2015.

It may well be that as the LeBreton area accumulates more residents it will acquire more cachet.

But, for the moment, Melnyk has reason for concern.

Here’s why. Because governments aren’t contributing funding, RendezVous LeBreton is counting on multiple streams of revenue from the project’s various components — condos, retail outlets, office towers, the NHL arena, entertainment venues and a hotel.

The precise allocation and timing of the revenue flows is not public, though Melnyk in his litigation claimed the partners agreed to split the proceeds roughly 50-50.

Melnyk however, faces significant upfront costs. He is responsible for financing and building a $600-million NHL arena, which was to have been in operation as early as 2022.

The condos and apartments, mainly Ruddy’s responsibility, are to be built over two decades — roughly 200 per year until 2027.

The key to making the LeBreton project work is the partners’ ability to quickly create a community that would attract visitors and buyers of condos and apartments — people who would spend money in the shops and buy NHL hockey tickets. The risk for Melnyk is that arena-related development and costs could outpace the other elements of the project, leaving him short of revenue.

It would have helped RendezVous LeBreton to have partners in place with shared history and understanding about this very large project — and a willingness to adapt to changing circumstance. But that was not to be.

When the NCC launched the competition to remake LeBreton, Melnyk had every intention of running the bid himself. According to two sources familiar with his business dealings that year, Melnyk invited several real-estate firms to consider joining him.

The sources say Brookfield Properties of New York took a close look but in the end passed on the opportunity, reportedly over concerns about the relatively small size of the city in relation to such a large project. Brookfield did not reply to a query by this newspaper.

It was Cyril Leeder, then chief operating officer for the Ottawa Senators, who introduced Melnyk to Ruddy in 2014. Shortly after, Melnyk’s liver began failing. After his May 2015 transplant, Melnyk needed time for recovery — and it was during this period he signed the letter of intent that split the Rendezvous LeBreton proceeds 50-50.

As Melnyk’s health improved, so did his determination to protect his business interests. As he became aware of the 900 Albert St. project, which grew in scope after 2015, he warned the National Capital Commission that he had engaged independent consultants (PwC) to assess the impact on LeBreton. In early January 2018, Melynk wrote to the National Capital Commission warning the agency his company was “reassessing its involvement in the LeBreton project.”

After city council approved the three-tower development 900 Albert that included significant retail, office and residential units, Melnyk pursued his case to Mayor Jim Watson.

It was a straight line from there to last week’s lawsuit.

[email protected]


LeBreton Flats analyzed – three reports


Author: Urbanation – commissioned by RendezVous LeBreton partnership

Date: Nov. 12, 2015

Conclusion: The 10,000 apartment/condo units proposed for downtown Ottawa represent a 15-year supply, or 650 units per year. With Ottawa’s improving economy and employment growth, Urbanation predicts there will be sufficient demand to accommodate the additional 200 residential units proposed by LeBreton Rendezvous by 2027 and another 150 starts annually by 2033. Trinity Development’s 900 Albert St. project was not included in this analysis, as Trinity had not yet applied for zoning changes on the property.



Author: Urbanation — commissioned by Trinity Development

Date: Aug. 17, 2018

Conclusion: Although the supply of apartment/condo units proposed for downtown Ottawa has jumped to 11,650 (including 1,300 units at 900 Albert St.), Urbanation maintains there is still enough room in the market to add another 200 units each year at LeBreton. The reason: Ottawa’s population is growing faster than expected, creating demand for housing that will outstrip supply.



Author: PwC — commissioned by Ottawa Senators

Date: April 2018

Conclusion: About 10,000 apartment/condo units are expected to be built in downtown Ottawa by 2028, not including LeBreton or 900 Albert St. PwC estimates downtown units will be built at the rate of 800 per year this year and next, rising to 1,200 per year between 2020 and 2024. Under PwC’s optimistic scenario, there’s enough room in the market outside the 10,000 units already proposed to support the construction of another 170 units per year. But Rendezvous and 900 Albert are planning to build 200 units each from 2020 to 2024, leaving room for just one of these projects.

https://ottawacitizen.com/news/local-news/bagnall-the-lebreton-question-whos-right-melnyk-or-ruddy
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  #2398  
Old Posted Nov 30, 2018, 4:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Kitchissippi View Post
It's ironic that people would sit for a few hours to watch and admire a bunch of guys physically exert themselves running back and forth a field or skating around a patch of ice, but then complain about having to walk a couple of hundred metres to get there Yay, "sports!"
Spectator sports are entertainment, no different from watching a movie or a musical or theatrical live performance. The difference being that in the case of sports, you may have to transport many thousands of people. With smaller events, ticket holders expect to park close to the venue, usually immediately adjacent to it. Those who are using transit are already typically getting more exercise than those who park next to the venue.

I understand that spectator sports are more blue collar and therefore deserve second class access.
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  #2399  
Old Posted Nov 30, 2018, 5:39 PM
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Originally Posted by lrt's friend View Post
Spectator sports are entertainment, no different from watching a movie or a musical or theatrical live performance. The difference being that in the case of sports, you may have to transport many thousands of people. With smaller events, ticket holders expect to park close to the venue, usually immediately adjacent to it. Those who are using transit are already typically getting more exercise than those who park next to the venue.

I understand that spectator sports are more blue collar and therefore deserve second class access.
So, let me get this straight.

You propose that it's a good idea to put a massive building, that is only in practical use for 3-4 evenings per week, immediately beside the LRT station so that the people who live and/or work in the remaining portion of the LeBreton development would have to walk past it twice daily to reach the rapid transit spine of the city?

And the sports fans are the second class citizens?
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  #2400  
Old Posted Nov 30, 2018, 5:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Horus View Post
So, let me get this straight.

You propose that it's a good idea to put a massive building, that is only in practical use for 3-4 evenings per week, immediately beside the LRT station so that the people who live and/or work in the remaining portion of the LeBreton development would have to walk past it twice daily to reach the rapid transit spine of the city?

And the sports fans are the second class citizens?
The arena provides the biggest ridership spikes. If we expect the majority of those going to the arena to use transit, it needs to be convenient. We are talking about modal share of over 50%, something that the local community will likely not achieve. Do you think the Lansdowne model would have worked if the closest transit stop was 5 blocks away?

As I said, we are trying to manipulate public behaviour by trying to filter people and move them to more than one station. People will quickly learn the best way out and the vast majority will head to the same station. Also, the public didn't like the long walks at CTC during the dead of winter so a sheltered walkway was provided. Now we expect people to make a similar walk without shelter, and not to a private vehicle but to a transit station that may not clear quickly.
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