Phoenix Development News (3)

[biggus diggus]

Thanks that's the kind of response I was looking for.

I went to the All Star Game in 1995 at AWA and while I'm sure it created some revenue for local businesses, hotels, and provided tax revenue it's still basketball. It will never be Super Bowl or college sports tournament level boon.

[muertecaza]

Originally Posted by somethingfast

^ i don't personally feel there is a correct "position" on the public funding issue. i think most people (us plebes that is) generally feel that the onus of building these palaces where fewer and fewer of the public can afford access falls on them and not more so the users of the facilities. it's the ever-growing problem of "public subsidizing of private interests" model which just makes the poor poorer and the rich richer. Sarver has not put a consistent quality product on the court for 70% of the time he has owned the product. the city of Phoenix needs to push him hard to foot a significant if not majority of the bill. he's a capitalist. raise the capital. don't just say "this building 🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵" and "i can't put a competitive product out there without a fancy new building" - that doesn't carry much sway anymore. the arena is actually generally okay last time i went there. access to facilities/concessions is the major issue. don't know that it takes a half billion dollars to fix that. but whatever. he can threaten to move all he wants. part of me says let him do it. i wish the Cards had left as they always took the easiest path to new anything. they are so far away from me that is just not economically and time-wise worth it for me to go see them...esp now that they are back to having a poor product again. Phoenix is a desirable place to be for teams and we should remember that.

Not that it matters that much in this debate, but the Suns have had a winning record in 8 of the 14 complete seasons in which Sarver has owned the team, and they have an overall 51% winning percentage. And at least the last two really poor seasons were by design. So not sure that saying the Suns haven't put out a quality product 70% of the time is accurate. Whether you want to give Sarver any credit for the success, or argue that the relative success is in spite of Sarver, is another story.

[ASU Diablo]

Originally Posted by biggus diggus

Thanks that's the kind of response I was looking for.

I went to the All Star Game in 1995 at AWA and while I'm sure it created some revenue for local businesses, hotels, and provided tax revenue it's still basketball. It will never be Super Bowl or college sports tournament level boon.

Sure that's true. But you could say the same thing about Chase Field and the results are there. The thing with State Farm is you're getting at a minimum 8 days of Cardinals football, Fiesta Bowl, and then all other events sprinkled in between. The frequency of events at TSRA is much greater in a calendar year, possibly bringing in similar revenue (minus super events) in a year versus short bursts like State Farm. You're talking about 41 nights of Suns basketball at a minimum, 17 Mercury games, and Rattlers plus all the weekly events that seem to be happening at TSRA arena

[muertecaza]

Originally Posted by ASU Diablo

Here's two arguments of two other publicly funded arenas:
1) State Farm Stadium - over $310M in public money to build. According to ASU, Super Bowl XLIX generated an estimated $720M in economic impacts in the region. One event by itself possibly generated all the money back. Let's not forget about Super Bowl from 2008 and upcoming 2023. Fiesta Bowls, CFB Playoffs, NCAA Final Four, etc
2) Chase Field - https://www.azcentral.com/story/opinion/...e-been-good-deal-metro-phoenix/85694968/

In a nutshell, both publicly funded arenas have been worth the investment. The economic studies don't lie. But the whole premise that they are not worth the investment and city won't recoup the initial cost is false. According to the Suns, TSRA can't currently book some events as productions for some of them are getting bigger and bigger and they can't currently support. With the renovation, they will be able to book these grander events, bringing additional foot traffic and tax revenue to a growing downtown scene.

This is definitely a worthwhile response. That said, I think it's also worth noting that these types of economic impact analysis can be problematic. See e.g.:

https://www.johnlocke.org/research/economic-impact-studies-the-missing-ingredient-is-economics/

https://www.planetizen.com/node/84094/problems-economic-impact-analysis-examples-base-communities

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10.1177/0739456X15586626

https://www.brookings.edu/articles/sports-jobs-taxes-are-new-stadiums-worth-the-cost/

The sources make similar points about the uncertainties involved in the economic impact analysis process and the likelihood that "economic impacts" can really just be the reorganization of economic activity.

I think the point is driven home by the claim that renovations of TSRA is necessary to support non-basketball events. I don't think anyone is arguing that non-basketball events that would otherwise not be coming to Phoenix/Arizona at all would start to come if TSRA were renovated. Rather, the events would potentially start coming to TSRA instead of other venues in the Valley. I don't know that that's really an economic impact--more just a change of venue.

[biggus diggus]

Originally Posted by ASU Diablo

Sure that's true. But you could say the same thing about Chase Field and the results are there. The thing with State Farm is you're getting at a minimum 8 days of Cardinals football, Fiesta Bowl, and then all other events sprinkled in between. The frequency of events at TSRA is much greater in a calendar year, possibly bringing in similar revenue (minus super events) in a year versus short bursts like State Farm. You're talking about 41 nights of Suns basketball at a minimum, 17 Mercury games, and Rattlers plus all the weekly events that seem to be happening at TSRA arena

My contact with the Suns always likes to tell me how tsra is the busiest building in the nation and how they do so many events but he will never put that claim into context.

[PHXFlyer11]

Originally Posted by biggus diggus

My contact with the Suns always likes to tell me how tsra is the busiest building in the nation and how they do so many events but he will never put that claim into context.

Because it’s false. Staples Center is home to 2 NBA teams, an NHL team, a WNBA team and more concerts than TSRA.

Many other venues host NHL in addition to NBA and have many more concerts.

[phoenixwillrise]

I use to think the sky would be falling if we didn't bend over and yield to the extortion of one of these pro teams. That we had to pony up to keep them in town. No more, after seeing the example the San Francisco Giants set they established a new bar. The voters in the bay area rejected a stadium for the Giants 3 times, then it happened. The Giants paid for their own stadium. The Suns are worth 1.3 billion dollars. Why do we have to make Sarver richer?
If he cuts and runs, let him go. He is one of the worst if not the worst owner in the NBA. Phoenix is a great NBA town and if he left a new team would move here or start here. Call his bluff. If nothing else at least make him pay 3/4 of the bill and the city 1/4 sprucing up the existing arena for the second time.

[CrestedSaguaro]

We could all debate this until we're as blue as SSP. Half are going to be OK with this, the other half are going to want Sarver to pay.

IMO, this is not a large amount of money by any means compared to today's costs for replacing/renovating arenas. I think ASU Diablo hit it on the head about what benefits they bring to Downtown. With that being said, I'm OK with $150 mil to keep the Suns and the business they bring Downtown. But I'm NOT OK with building them an entirely new arena at 3 times the cost. Give it to them while Sarver is accepting it as it is only a portion of what he was initially wanting...which was something like $400 million?

[Mr.RE]

This article is relevant to what we are talking about. Give it a read. TSRA is vital to Downtown's success. If 40,000,000 people have passed through TSRA over the years, one can expect another 40 mil over the coming decades. Hopefully this renovation talk is resolved soon.

https://azbigmedia.com/talking-stick-resort-arena-welcomes-40-millionth-guest/

[stutteringpunk]

Originally Posted by Mr.RE

This article is relevant to what we are talking about. Give it a read. TSRA is vital to Downtown's success. If 40,000,000 people have passed through TSRA over the years, one can expect another 40 mil over the coming decades. Hopefully this renovation talk is resolved soon.

https://azbigmedia.com/talking-stick-resort-arena-welcomes-40-millionth-guest/

I think it's funny that people are quick to throw out the idea that new arenas don't positively impact cities, yet neglect to acknowledge what the ramifications of a major sports team leaving would be.

[DesertRay]

Originally Posted by stutteringpunk

I think it's funny that people are quick to throw out the idea that new arenas don't positively impact cities, yet neglect to acknowledge what the ramifications of a major sports team leaving would be.

I hope that the negotiators are talking about renovations that would externalize more of the gains. I would love for this conversation to be put into a larger context of how they can get more people circulating around the area (and to catalyze building in the Warehouse district). Build pedestrian and bike paths that are shade-lined and human-scaled emanating to and from the stadia. That way, even if the team walks away, there will be a plan going forward to make this city world class for everyone in the town. They should be talking about ways to make this a win-win prospect for everyone involved. I remember when America West Arena was built, and the Suns moved from Veterans Memorial Coliseum on the Fairgrounds. It started in a sea of parking lots, and now, half of these Southwest boards feature the wonders being built either directly across this "money pit" (as it was described), or up and down the Light Rail "other money pit." As far as I can tell, this isn't recirculating money that would be spent building towers in Glendale, Avondale, and Scottsdale, but it's capturing money from Seattle, Silicon Valley, Arlington, and Queens that would be spent entertaining themselves with 🞵🞵🞵🞵 from Amazon, and movies from Netflix. It's got to be tied to real goals (and not just pseudoscientific "multipliers") and an identity that acknowledges that people want to do things that don't always cost $200 to get into the door.

[AnthonyPHX]

In more non-political news, DVC sent out a newsletter with some additional renderings and site plans for the Central Station project:


https://drive.google.com/file/d/1dKIzahwa2HAmanqmtL24Hqlk1ypv1Q4E/view

[somethingfast]

Originally Posted by muertecaza

Not that it matters that much in this debate, but the Suns have had a winning record in 8 of the 14 complete seasons in which Sarver has owned the team, and they have an overall 51% winning percentage. And at least the last two really poor seasons were by design. So not sure that saying the Suns haven't put out a quality product 70% of the time is accurate. Whether you want to give Sarver any credit for the success, or argue that the relative success is in spite of Sarver, is another story.

i'll assume you've fact-checked this and not argue your point. but let's be totally honest...the team hasn't been relevant since 2010 at the latest and more like 2007 when Amare and Steve were superstars. it's just hard to recall anything outside that *one* ALMOST playoff appearance with 🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵 as head coach. and of course Sarver screwed that up by reacting with a firing. he's just not a good owner...period. he's cheap. and he's cheap with Phoenix. sorry, don't care about him or his plight. he can pony up or raise $300 mil easy and the City would be very happy to add another $200 mil and everyone wins. otherwise, don't care...

[AnthonyPHX]

Looks like Taco Bell is returning to downtown at the Collier Center:
iirc there hasn't been a Taco Bell downtown since the one at the Superior Court complex closed 5-ish years ago.

[exit2lef]

Originally Posted by AnthonyPHX

Looks like Taco Bell is returning to downtown at the Collier Center:
iirc there hasn't been a Taco Bell downtown since the one at the Superior Court complex closed 5-ish years ago.

It's not just Taco Bell, but Taco Bell Cantina. Downtown Phoenix is getting classy, I guess.

https://www.azcentral.com/story/entertai...-phoenix-collier-center-2019/2018790002/

[CrestedSaguaro]

Yep. They've already started work on the location and have a pending liquor license going up for approval with the city council on the 12th.

Can't wait to check this out.

[Phxguy]

Originally Posted by exit2lef

It's not just Taco Bell, but Taco Bell Cantina. Downtown Phoenix is getting classy, I guess.

https://www.azcentral.com/story/entertai...-phoenix-collier-center-2019/2018790002/

I don’t think I’ll be visiting the Cantina but I can see how it’ll be a great asset to drunken club goers looking for a quick bite. Between Hard Rock Cafe, the Park, Whining Pig, and all the clubs along Washington, I can see this being an immediate success.

[Phxguy]

The Shell on 7th St and Roosevelt has been shuddered. There’s fencing around it and the pumps have been removed. About time! That place was always empty and the meters took too long to fill my car.

Anything in the pipeline? This is a prime corner into downtown that would connect Roosevelt Row with 7th St.

[Obadno]

Originally Posted by Phxguy

The Shell on 7th St and Roosevelt has been shuddered. There’s fencing around it and the pumps have been removed. About time! That place was always empty and the meters took too long to fill my car.

Anything in the pipeline? This is a prime corner into downtown that would connect Roosevelt Row with 7th St.

Not that I know of but as canopy and link have shown us some projects can come out of nowhere

[TJPHXskyscraperfan]

Originally Posted by biggus diggus

Thanks that's the kind of response I was looking for.

I went to the All Star Game in 1995 at AWA and while I'm sure it created some revenue for local businesses, hotels, and provided tax revenue it's still basketball. It will never be Super Bowl or college sports tournament level boon.

All star weekend is hugh and we had another in 2009 which I had a blast being 23 years old then,lol. I spend over a grand on events and stuff myself and I didn't travel here. Remodel the area and we will get another. Basketball continues to rise in popularity and will soon over take baseball in popularity.