Ottawa Macdonald-Cartier International Airport (YOW/CYOW) 1.0

[CityTech]

Originally Posted by NOWINYOW

Wow. Nanny State or what? What about people who need to pick up family/friends before heading to the airport? What about people just picking up or dropping off others? What about those who need to be at the airport 90 minutes before flight time, and the flight time is before 8AM? Or the flight time is 6AM? I dont' there's much if any public transit at that time. What about those who use the parking because they are traveling for only a day or two and may or may not be back before Public Transit shuts down for the night?

If your preference is for your Gov't to mandate everything you do in life and to act and think for you, that's your business. For the rest of us that can think and act for ourselves, leave us alone. In your case, just assume the Gov't is mandating it and do it.

He's referring to federal business travel, for which the government currently pays for cabs even at time periods when transit is perfectly viable.

[Requin]

Originally Posted by CityTech

He's referring to federal business travel, for which the government currently pays for cabs even at time periods when transit is perfectly viable.

Any savings on transportation cost would be more than offset by an increase in labour costs related to longer travel time.

[mxg308]

Originally Posted by Dominion301

Hmmm I think the 12 months rolling domestic and grand totals are too high as through September they were about 3,933,000 and 5,012,000 respectively.

Maybe I’m missing something but I think they’re actually about 3,950,000 and 5,030,000-ish respectively.

My apologies. I accidentally repeated October. I have edited the numbers in the original post and i'll post them again here below. Good catch Dominion301!

Sector / Oct-17 / Oct-18 / % Change
Dom: 344,840 / 358,995 / +4.1% -
TB: 51,447 / 59,551 / +15.8%
Int'l: 18,025 / 20,094 / +11.5% -
TTL: 414,312 / 438,640 / +5.9% -

Sector YTD 2017 / YTD 2018 / % Change
Dom: 3,182,220 / 3,371,871 / +6.0%
TB: 532,011 / 599,761 / +12.7%
Int'l: 323,966 / 323,130 / -0.3%
TTL: 4,038,197 / 4,294,762 / +6.4%

12 Months Rolling % Change vs Year End 2017
Dom: 3,947,400 / +3.5% -
TB: 711,783 / +9.9% -
Int'l: 377,774 / -0.2% -
TTL: 5,036,957 / +4.1% - Another really strong month

[Jamaican-Phoenix]

Originally Posted by MountainView

Sorry, I normally post the source but I had that image saved from something else I was using it for.

Airport Master Plan which was recently updated in 2018:
Whose information can be found here

Direct link to the PDF Executive Summary

Let me know if you have other questions - I might be able to answer them.

Cheers!

Thank you very much, it's appreciated!

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

What conflict are you seeing? I see plenty of room to expand the terminal. Or even build a second terminal in the current long term lot. Or repurpose the cargo area and cell phone lot for a second terminal and move those elsewhere. Heck, relocate the VIP Reception Hangar and there's a ton of room for terminal expansion. And I'd argue this hangar needs to be replaced. I've been in there and it's a rather sad facility for a first impression of a G8 country.

I am still curious to see if HFR happens and what that does to growth at YOW. If that plan comes to pass, traveling from YUL will become a lot more attractive. So without clarity on the feds intentions for VIA HFR, I don't think YOW should be pushing for large terminal expansions.

Well, I attached a map of my own to help visualize it. The only expansion I can see are the additional blue rectangles I added to both sides of the terminal, and added red around where I could see a potential terminal expansion for offices, areas for travellers, etc. I don't really see it going beyond those outlines as a single terminal, when accounting for their future plans and apron expansion. :/

[MountainView]

Originally Posted by Jamaican-Phoenix

Thank you very much, it's appreciated!



Well, I attached a map of my own to help visualize it. The only expansion I can see are the additional blue rectangles I added to both sides of the terminal, and added red around where I could see a potential terminal expansion for offices, areas for travellers, etc. I don't really see it going beyond those outlines as a single terminal, when accounting for their future plans and apron expansion. :/

The blue is what they proposed in their 2008 Master Plan. So your thought process is bang on!

If we would have had the continued trans-border passenger numbers, I am sure they would have expanded the trans-border area in 2017, but that hasn't happened yet.

Here are some of their recommendations from 10 years ago:







And the full comparison 2008 vs 2018 (one you attached in your post)

2008:

[kwoldtimer]

Do I understand correctly that the proposed hotel would replace part of the proposed parking garage expansion?

[rocketphish]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

Do I understand correctly that the proposed hotel would replace part of the proposed parking garage expansion?

That's what it looks like to me too.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

The HFR proposal is exactly that. Hourly train service to Toronto and Montreal.

Yup. The F in HFR stands for frequency. According to VIA Rail, they plan to "triple the number of trains per day in the corridor."

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Travel time to Montreal would be < 1.5 hrs. I expect, Dorval would be just over an hour. And travel time to Toronto is supposed to be < 3 hrs. So about 3.5 hrs to Pearson from Tremblay.

Yup. According to this article, 80 minutes from Ottawa to Montreal and about 2.5 hours Ottawa to Toronto. We will see if they can actually achieve those times, but they probably won't be too far off.

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

With costs that would be competitive with coach buses.

Not sure about that. I would say the hope is likely to not have the rail fare increase significantly, so starting at about $30 each way for a discounted ticket to Montreal.

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

So if this really launches, why would I bother with most transatlantic trips starting at YOW? I could train to Dorval and get on there. I'd also consider taking the train to Toronto or Montreal instead of flying, for business. The train time is far more productive.

Certainly, if your destination isn't available directly from YOW.

Originally Posted by YOWetal

I agree but right now the train is a bit wonky to get to Dorval though. They need to fix that also. The shuttle is a bit infrequent. You need to hump your luggage etc. I could be mis-remembering but I think 20 years ago it was actually easier.

There certainly is a possibility that they could move Dorval station into the airport. Montreal's new REM will have a station at YUL, so VIA could piggyback on that development.

Originally Posted by YOWetal

I have taken the KLM bus a few times and I wonder if HFR will replace the bus. It is very convenient to take the direct bus and get directly on a flight to Amsterdam or Paris. In winter the schedule is better for almost all destinations and even in summer Paris and AMS have some better connections to Africa and the Middle East.

They certainly could. The train would be faster and more comfortable than the bus. Other international carriers that fly to YUL (or even YYZ) could do the same. That would really light a fire under the seat of the domestic carriers to provide more direct service out of YOW instead of flying everyone over to YYZ, which would be good for YOW. There might be a reduction in the number (and size) of the flights to YYZ, but we may see more flights to other destinations.

Originally Posted by YOWetal

Does anyone fly to Montreal for business?

Only those who don't know any better. My sister (from Vancouver) once had a conference in Montreal one week and in Ottawa the next. She took the train, but one of her colleagues booked a flight without considering the other options. Even a taxi would likely have been faster and not much more expensive (especially when you consider the cost of the taxi to and from the airports).

[Dominion301]

Originally Posted by mxg308

My apologies. I accidentally repeated October. I have edited the numbers in the original post and i'll post them again here below. Good catch Dominion301!

Sector / Oct-17 / Oct-18 / % Change
Dom: 344,840 / 358,995 / +4.1% -
TB: 51,447 / 59,551 / +15.8%
Int'l: 18,025 / 20,094 / +11.5% -
TTL: 414,312 / 438,640 / +5.9% -

Sector YTD 2017 / YTD 2018 / % Change
Dom: 3,182,220 / 3,371,871 / +6.0%
TB: 532,011 / 599,761 / +12.7%
Int'l: 323,966 / 323,130 / -0.3%
TTL: 4,038,197 / 4,294,762 / +6.4%

12 Months Rolling % Change vs Year End 2017
Dom: 3,947,400 / +3.5% -
TB: 711,783 / +9.9% -
Int'l: 377,774 / -0.2% -
TTL: 5,036,957 / +4.1% - Another really strong month

No probs. The international gain for October is impressive, especially considering there were multiple 767 cancellations last month.

As for HFR vs flying to Toronto, except for the east end of the GTA (i.e. Oshawa, Ajax) flying will always be faster, especially for same-day biz pax with no checked luggage. YTZ beats out Via for anything downtown and YYZ beats out Via for anything on the west side of the GTA. Same with the reverse to Ottawa, even if you're heading to Barrhaven (which few flying would) where Via has a station, given YOW is close by.

With no luggage, if you e-check in at home, you don't need to get to the airport until 45 minutes before departure. For the train, you still need to be there at least 20 minutes before departure. The 25 minutes you save will not offset the 1hr-1h15 flying time.

As for HFR and not using YOW to fly internationally, why would you train or bus it if you're going to Paris and there were actually a daily nonstop from YOW? Heck even nowadays, if you're flying Star Alliance and have to go via YUL, it's just as easy to hop on a Q400 to YUL and connect there.

The only problem YOW has is that demand exceeds supply for service to Europe...as evidenced by this summer's 95% loads to LHR and FRA. The 767 replacement in summer 2020 will add some new capacity be it a 787 or 330, but there's still lots of local demand not being satisfied locally.

[Aylmer]

Why do you have to be there 20 minutes before the train? I was a regular train commuter and just made sure to be there 5 minutes before. They only restrict boarding 3 minutes before the scheduled departure.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Dominion301

As for HFR vs flying to Toronto, except for the east end of the GTA (i.e. Oshawa, Ajax) flying will always be faster, especially for same-day biz pax with no checked luggage. YTZ beats out Via for anything downtown and YYZ beats out Via for anything on the west side of the GTA. Same with the reverse to Ottawa, even if you're heading to Barrhaven (which few flying would) where Via has a station, given YOW is close by.

Unlike HSR, HFR isn't intending to compete with flying. It is intended to compete with driving. Having said that, in certain circumstances it will also be competitive with flying. For example, someone living in the east end will drive (or take LRT) past the train station on their way to YOW. On the other end, it also depends where there destination in Toronto is.

Originally Posted by Aylmer

Why do you have to be there 20 minutes before the train? I was a regular train commuter and just made sure to be there 5 minutes before. They only restrict boarding 3 minutes before the scheduled departure.

There is a big difference between recommended arrival times and minimum arrival times. Reality is likely somewhere between the two and is based on a person's comfort level. VIA Rail recommends you arrive 30 minutes prior to departure, and Porter recommends 60 minutes prior to departure. OTOH, Porter closes the gate 10 minutes prior to departure and VIA 3 minutes (though with the former you need to go through security). If you are going to use 45 minutes as a "safe" arrival time at the airport, I would say 15 minutes is likely to be the equivalent safe arrival time for a train. If you cut things too thin, you risk missing the train/plain if you are delayed.

Originally Posted by Dominion301

As for HFR and not using YOW to fly internationally, why would you train or bus it if you're going to Paris and there were actually a daily nonstop from YOW?

IF there was a direct not-stop flight from YOW to CDG, then that would obviously be better. My point was that if you are flying somewhere that has a direct non-stop flight from YUL but not YOW, HSR to YUL would be an attractive option. This loss of business (since there are many more choices of airlines out of YUL) might actually encourage AC (and WS) to offer more direct flights out of YOW.

Originally Posted by Dominion301

Heck even nowadays, if you're flying Star Alliance and have to go via YUL, it's just as easy to hop on a Q400 to YUL and connect there.

That is nowadays, not with HFR. If the train trip to Dorval can be cut to about an hour with hourly departures, it will be very competitive with a 47 minute flight with only 9 departures daily on AC. If you aren't flying Star Alliance, the train will be much better.

Originally Posted by Dominion301

The only problem YOW has is that demand exceeds supply for service to Europe...as evidenced by this summer's 95% loads to LHR and FRA. The 767 replacement in summer 2020 will add some new capacity be it a 787 or 330, but there's still lots of local demand not being satisfied locally.

As long as AC can be assured that most of those PAX will be rerouted on one of their flights via YUL or YYZ, they won't be concerned about fixing the problem. If HFR results in people using other airlines out of YUL, they will have more incentive to fix the lack of supply.

[White Pine]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

The HFR proposal is exactly that. Hourly train service to Toronto and Montreal.

Travel time to Montreal would be < 1.5 hrs. I expect, Dorval would be just over an hour. And travel time to Toronto is supposed to be < 3 hrs. So about 3.5 hrs to Pearson from Tremblay. With costs that would be competitive with coach buses.

So if this really launches, why would I bother with most transatlantic trips starting at YOW? I could train to Dorval and get on there. I'd also consider taking the train to Toronto or Montreal instead of flying, for business. The train time is far more productive.

There is definitely something to be said for the convenience of booking under a single carrier. It's nice to have one trip managed by one company than, say, dealing with VIA and Air Canada separately. Also, as someone from the valley hinterlands, I personally would find it less annoying to drive the 2 hrs to YOW and get into the whole airport system right away than to drive 2ish hrs to the train, then 2 hrs to YUL, then more line ups plus security, etc in a different city.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by White Pine

There is definitely something to be said for the convenience of booking under a single carrier. It's nice to have one trip managed by one company than, say, dealing with VIA and Air Canada separately.

In Europe many airlines code share with the railways. There is no reason why the airlines couldn't do the same with VIA. That way you only need to buy one ticket. AC would likely still have their flights for their (and other Star Alliance carriers) connections, but foreign carriers, who can't offer domestic flights, could use VIA Rail.

Also, as someone from the valley hinterlands, I personally would find it less annoying to drive the 2 hrs to YOW and get into the whole airport system right away than to drive 2ish hrs to the train, then 2 hrs to YUL, then more line ups plus security, etc in a different city.

Have you ever taken the train? There is no security and the only lineup is to board (and that is only at major stations). Also, depending where you live, you also might not have to drive all the way to Ottawa. You could catch the train in Smiths Falls or Sharbot Lake.

Also, it would likely only be a little over an hour to YUL (depending if they put the station in the airport or if you still need to take a shuttle), not the 2 hours you estimated.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Dominion301

As for HFR vs flying to Toronto, except for the east end of the GTA (i.e. Oshawa, Ajax) flying will always be faster, especially for same-day biz pax with no checked luggage. YTZ beats out Via for anything downtown and YYZ beats out Via for anything on the west side of the GTA. Same with the reverse to Ottawa, even if you're heading to Barrhaven (which few flying would) where Via has a station, given YOW is close by.

With no luggage, if you e-check in at home, you don't need to get to the airport until 45 minutes before departure. For the train, you still need to be there at least 20 minutes before departure. The 25 minutes you save will not offset the 1hr-1h15 flying time.

Sure flying beats the train. But now by as much as you think.

Let's compare a trip from Parliament Hill to Union station in Toronto (to look at something downtown to downtown).

Air:
Cab to airport: 20-30 min
Pre-flight: 30-45 mins
Flight: 1 hr
Cab to Union: 10 mins
Total: 2-2.42 hrs

Train:
LRT to Tremblay: 10 mins
Pre-train: 10 mins
Train: 3 hrs
Total: 3.32 hrs

Difference? 0.91 hrs. About 55 mins.

The real question is how much are companies and business travelers willing to pay for 55 mins saved. Especially, if that 55 mins is productive time on the train.

The train becomes even more advantageous if your GTA origin/destination is in the east end or your origin/destination in Ottawa is south or West of Fallowfield or East/Southeast of Tremblay.

Notes to the above. Add 15-20 mins if flying from Pearson and using UPE to the core. And VIA claims 2.5 hrs from Union to Ottawa. I'm being conservative assuming 3 hrs.

Originally Posted by Dominion301

As for HFR and not using YOW to fly internationally, why would you train or bus it if you're going to Paris and there were actually a daily nonstop from YOW?

Because there's no direct flight to Paris? And I will have a plethora of options from YUL that YOW will never haver?

The only way that would change is YOW were to use HFR to really pitch itself as the LCC alternative to YUL. So that Montrealers would come to Ottawa to catch cheap vacation flights.

Originally Posted by Dominion301

Heck even nowadays, if you're flying Star Alliance and have to go via YUL, it's just as easy to hop on a Q400 to YUL and connect there.

That's a worse option for all but those located close to YOW. If there really is hourly service on HFR from Fallowfield and Tremblay, most of the city would find that more convenient and comfortable than a handful of Q400 runs from YOW to YUL.

There's other opportunities here too. They could well do secure checked luggage if they wanted to and enable luggage check in at train stations in Ottawa. Our transport sector isn't really that forward thinking and I don't expect this. But it could easily be done.

Originally Posted by Dominion301

The only problem YOW has is that demand exceeds supply for service to Europe...as evidenced by this summer's 95% loads to LHR and FRA. The 767 replacement in summer 2020 will add some new capacity be it a 787 or 330, but there's still lots of local demand not being satisfied locally.

Won't really be an issue if you can catch a flight by jumping on the train for an hour to YUL. HFR will toss a wrench in Star Alliance's yield management games at YOW.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

I agree but right now the train is a bit wonky to get to Dorval though. They need to fix that also. The shuttle is a bit infrequent. You need to hump your luggage etc. I could be mis-remembering but I think 20 years ago it was actually easier.

Indeed. And maybe if and when HFR is announced that could be part of the discussion, they will work on some solution. A people-mover would work well here.

Originally Posted by YOWetal

I have taken the KLM bus a few times and I wonder if HFR will replace the bus. It is very convenient to take the direct bus and get directly on a flight to Amsterdam or Paris. In winter the schedule is better for almost all destinations and even in summer Paris and AMS have some better connections to Africa and the Middle East.

I fully expect those coach shuttles to be dropped. It's probably a hassle for the airlines to run them. And codesharing with rail is just not foreign to European carriers.

Originally Posted by YOWetal

Does anyone fly to Montreal for business? Even Toronto train vs Airport is 50-50 though the Island airport is great for a lot of destinations.
On a related note once LRT is up and running the federal government should make everyone take public transport to the airport/train station.

When I said business, I meant more to Toronto. I'm not sure they'll get rid of taxi chits to the airport. But they will probably encourage people people to take the train to Toronto or Montreal for meetings where possible. And quite frankly, 3 hrs on a train could actually be more productive than 1 hr in terminal, 1 hr on plane and 30 mins getting back to the core.

Originally Posted by roger1818

Yup. According to this article, 80 minutes from Ottawa to Montreal and about 2.5 hours Ottawa to Toronto. We will see if they can actually achieve those times, but they probably won't be too far off.

The 80 mins from Ottawa to Montreal is to downtown Montreal. I expect Tremblay to YUL to be about an hour. Even if the trip to Dorval is 70-80 mins, that still beats driving or flying out of YOW for a lot of people.

Originally Posted by roger1818

Not sure about that. I would say the hope is likely to not have the rail fare increase significantly, so starting at about $30 each way for a discounted ticket to Montreal.

Their CEO is on record saying he wants to get people to switch from driving.

And people really don't get the economics at play here. VIA's fares are high precisely because they operate so slowly. Increase their average operating speed and you increase the productivity of the train and its crew, lowering unit costs in the process. The same crew will almost be able to do a return Ottawa-Toronto trip in the time it takes to do a one-way trip from Toronto to Ottawa. Those lower unit costs will allow them to substantially lower fares. I expect the end of bus services between Toronto and Ottawa.

Originally Posted by roger1818

Certainly, if your destination isn't available directly from YOW.

With this train, every airline can now treat Ottawa's population as part of YUL's effective catchment. Why run a lower yield direct flight to YOW when you can run a larger aircraft with higher yields to YUL or offer more more frequencies at YUL and have YOW pax come to you?

YOW would remain focused on medium and longer haul domestic and trans-border. And the odd international flight to major centres (LHR) or hubs (FRA).

Originally Posted by roger1818

They certainly could. The train would be faster and more comfortable than the bus. Other international carriers that fly to YUL (or even YYZ) could do the same. That would really light a fire under the seat of the domestic carriers to provide more direct service out of YOW instead of flying everyone over to YYZ, which would be good for YOW. There might be a reduction in the number (and size) of the flights to YYZ, but we may see more flights to other destinations.

I really don't see this happening. YOW is not lucrative enough for any of this. They would consolidate more at YUL. And hand out vouchers for or codeshare with VIA.

Originally Posted by White Pine

There is definitely something to be said for the convenience of booking under a single carrier. It's nice to have one trip managed by one company than, say, dealing with VIA and Air Canada separately. Also, as someone from the valley hinterlands, I personally would find it less annoying to drive the 2 hrs to YOW and get into the whole airport system right away than to drive 2ish hrs to the train, then 2 hrs to YUL, then more line ups plus security, etc in a different city.

It really comes down to how this is handled. In Europe, codeshares between rail and airlines are well co-ordinated. And in some places, it's even possible to check in your luggage at the train station. So you won't be lugging suitcases when you get off at the airport.

I don't expect lots of co-ordination and forward thinking on day one. But I think a lot of the competition at YUL will find VIA a great partner if and when HFR actually happens.

[Truenorth00]

To be fair HFR is still a fairly amorphous concept. And there aren't incredibly firm details that are public. However, I suspect by the next election we'll know whether it's a go or not. So there's no point discussing expansion plans till then.

If HFR is a go, YOW should change their master plans and probably reconsider its focus. It could be the LCC alternative to Dorval, while YUL becomes the Ottawa-Montreal region's network/legacy carrier hub.

[Dominion301]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Sure flying beats the train. But now by as much as you think.

Let's compare a trip from Parliament Hill to Union station in Toronto (to look at something downtown to downtown).

Air:
Cab to airport: 20-30 min
Pre-flight: 30-45 mins
Flight: 1 hr
Cab to Union: 10 mins
Total: 2-2.42 hrs

Train:
LRT to Tremblay: 10 mins
Pre-train: 10 mins
Train: 3 hrs
Total: 3.32 hrs

Difference? 0.91 hrs. About 55 mins.

The real question is how much are companies and business travelers willing to pay for 55 mins saved. Especially, if that 55 mins is productive time on the train.

The train becomes even more advantageous if your GTA origin/destination is in the east end or your origin/destination in Ottawa is south or West of Fallowfield or East/Southeast of Tremblay.

Notes to the above. Add 15-20 mins if flying from Pearson and using UPE to the core. And VIA claims 2.5 hrs from Union to Ottawa. I'm being conservative assuming 3 hrs.



Because there's no direct flight to Paris? And I will have a plethora of options from YUL that YOW will never haver?

The only way that would change is YOW were to use HFR to really pitch itself as the LCC alternative to YUL. So that Montrealers would come to Ottawa to catch cheap vacation flights.



That's a worse option for all but those located close to YOW. If there really is hourly service on HFR from Fallowfield and Tremblay, most of the city would find that more convenient and comfortable than a handful of Q400 runs from YOW to YUL.

There's other opportunities here too. They could well do secure checked luggage if they wanted to and enable luggage check in at train stations in Ottawa. Our transport sector isn't really that forward thinking and I don't expect this. But it could easily be done.



Won't really be an issue if you can catch a flight by jumping on the train for an hour to YUL. HFR will toss a wrench in Star Alliance's yield management games at YOW.

3.5 hours total trip time from Parliament to Union on Via is a total fantasy at this point that is at least 10 years away. The current fastest trip (just for the Via ride itself) is 4:05...and that’s assuming the train is on time...Via’s OTP is way below the airlines thanks to Via being at CN’s mercy for 80% of the trip. The average trip time is closer to 4:30, meaning even when the Confederation line opens, the absolute fastest time to Toronto will be in the 4:45 range. That’s still about 90 minutes slower than Porter and for a same-day round-trip that’s an extra 3 hours...not to mention the last Porter departure is hours after the last train...even later out of YYZ.

The only certainty at this point is the replacement of the Corridor fleet in 3-5 years. That alone will enable Via to add an extra trip or two per day to Toronto and Montreal. Even the proposed HFR corridor is only supposed to reduce trip times to Toronto by an average of 45 minutes.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Dominion301

3.5 hours total trip time from Parliament to Union on Via is a total fantasy at this point that is at least 10 years away. The current fastest trip (just for the Via ride itself) is 4:05...and that’s assuming the train is on time...Via’s OTP is way below the airlines thanks to Via being at CN’s mercy for 80% of the trip. The average trip time is closer to 4:30, meaning even when the Confederation line opens, the absolute fastest time to Toronto will be in the 4:45 range. That’s still about 90 minutes slower than Porter and for a same-day round-trip that’s an extra 3 hours...not to mention the last Porter departure is hours after the last train...even later out of YYZ.

The only certainty at this point is the replacement of the Corridor fleet in 3-5 years. That alone will enable Via to add an extra trip or two per day to Toronto and Montreal. Even the proposed HFR corridor is only supposed to reduce trip times to Toronto by an average of 45 minutes.

I know this is the YOW thread but do you know anything about HFR? The plan is to for VIA Rail to have its own track (to avoid interference with the freight railways) on a route that is shorter than the existing route from Ottawa to Toronto (though Montreal/Toronto will be slightly further).

Where did you get the idea it would only reduce travel time by 45 minutes between Ottawa and Toronto (that sounds like the Montreal/Toronto time savings)? According to this article from the OBJ, the travel time to about 2.5 hours.

I agree that HFR is by no means certain and if approved, it will take over a decade for the plan to be fully implemented, but according to this Q&A, we would start to see benefits of HFR within 4 years of approval and funding.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Dominion301

3.5 hours total trip time from Parliament to Union on Via is a total fantasy at this point that is at least 10 years away.

VIA says they can build this in a few years if given the funding. They say they need 4 years to build. See source below. Add some time for EAs and procurement. And 6-7 years from the announcement looks very realistic.

Originally Posted by Dominion301

The current fastest trip (just for the Via ride itself) is 4:05...and that’s assuming the train is on time...Via’s OTP is way below the airlines thanks to Via being at CN’s mercy for 80% of the trip.

Hence, why HFR is actually called the "Dedicated Tracks Project":

https://www.viarail.ca/en/about-via-rail/governance-and-reports/dedicated-tracks

You should look up the the OTP of operators that have their own tracks. Puts most airlines to shame. VIA expects ≥ 95% OTP with HFR. I'd argue that experience in Spain, France, Germany, Japan, etc. suggests they are being conservative.

Originally Posted by Dominion301

The average trip time is closer to 4:30, meaning even when the Confederation line opens, the absolute fastest time to Toronto will be in the 4:45 range. That’s still about 90 minutes slower than Porter and for a same-day round-trip that’s an extra 3 hours...not to mention the last Porter departure is hours after the last train...even later out of YYZ.

What is true today, will not necessarily be true tomorrow. HFR will be a multi-billion dollar project. The feds aren't going to be spend that much to still have trains take over 4 hrs from Toronto to Ottawa.

Hiigh speed rail is not required for this. Give VIA its own track so it can run at full speed (100 mph), and Toronto-Ottawa becomes a 3.5 hr trip with stops. Add barriers, signaling, etc and you can boost running speeds to 125 mph, without grade separation. With stops, that's closer to 2.5 hrs. And this is all conventional rail being proposed. Nothing really advanced or particularly expensive or complicated.

Originally Posted by Dominion301

The only certainty at this point is the replacement of the Corridor fleet in 3-5 years. That alone will enable Via to add an extra trip or two per day to Toronto and Montreal. Even the proposed HFR corridor is only supposed to reduce trip times to Toronto by an average of 45 minutes.

What's your source on the 45 minutes claim? Here's my source on travel times claimed by VIA for HFR:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cw7PbIaxjOc&feature=youtu.be&t=4m01s

You are right that the only certainty right now is fleet replacement. But we are reaching the point where the government has to decide about HFR. So best to delay airport planning meant to serve beyond 2030 until details emerge on the government's intentions on this file.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

What's your source on the 45 minutes claim? Here's my source on travel times claimed by VIA for HFR:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cw7PbIaxjOc&feature=youtu.be&t=4m01s

Thanks for the link. I captured the slide from the video to show it below:


Note: Current travel times were in 2015. Increased freight traffic has made them worse today, making dedicated tracks even more important than ever.